The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
- Thread starter Budman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
How can you be forgiven of all future sin if you are told to confess your sin so as to be forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9? "All sin" is in reference to past sins that you committed. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever teach that future sin is forgiven. Nowhere did Jesus and or any of the apostles ever act like people's sins were automatically cleansed. Simon the sorcerer was told that his heart was not right with God and that he needed to repent of his desire to pay for the receiving the Spirit and the gifts thereof. His heart was evil. How was his future sin forgiven him? Peter told him to repent.
J
I agree with what you’ve said in your posts. They took the shoes post and made you seem like a hard-hearted legalist. The permissiveness of the church since after wwII and especially after the vietnam war, abortion, and birth control – has probably led to accepting a lot of sexual perversion, drugs and the occult. Many LGBT’s are looking at christians (even the permissive ones) as bipolar.
There was probably an extreme emphasis in the church after wwII to emphasize a God of grace and mercy, but not a God of justice and judgment – if only to instill a psychological desire for peace instead of war and violence. The hippies movement (and part of the Jesus People movement) in the 1960’s tried to practice this “artificial love” until they were stunned by the Charles Manson incident in the Hollywood Hills. Much more stunning to the permissive church people and pastors was that it didn’t stop the ruthlessness of the vietnam war.
Why couldn’t their version of God’s love have prevented such all-around brutality? One of the main things that has kept the world from major wars has been the invention of the H-bomb with MAD (mutual assured destruction). Now with the spectre of over-population with limited resources and an economic crisis with BRICS nations, MAD might be a real threat.
As for Jesus’ commandments (as in Matthew 5 to 7 which ends with the house built either on rock or sand), Jesus said, (Matt. 11:29,30)
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30[/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
---------------
That isn’t to say that there won’t be fiery trials in life.
There was probably an extreme emphasis in the church after wwII to emphasize a God of grace and mercy, but not a God of justice and judgment – if only to instill a psychological desire for peace instead of war and violence. The hippies movement (and part of the Jesus People movement) in the 1960’s tried to practice this “artificial love” until they were stunned by the Charles Manson incident in the Hollywood Hills. Much more stunning to the permissive church people and pastors was that it didn’t stop the ruthlessness of the vietnam war.
Why couldn’t their version of God’s love have prevented such all-around brutality? One of the main things that has kept the world from major wars has been the invention of the H-bomb with MAD (mutual assured destruction). Now with the spectre of over-population with limited resources and an economic crisis with BRICS nations, MAD might be a real threat.
As for Jesus’ commandments (as in Matthew 5 to 7 which ends with the house built either on rock or sand), Jesus said, (Matt. 11:29,30)
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30[/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
---------------
That isn’t to say that there won’t be fiery trials in life.
God may change a person's heart and spirit when they repent and accept Christ, but God does not take away their free will to choose Him or to not choose Him every day. A believer has "free will" to walk with God or to not walk with God. Just look at Adam and Eve. They knew God and yet they sinned and caused a separation between God and man to take place. But your probably thinking that this cannot happen to someone who is born again, right? Well, who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? You know when Jesus said that if you do not forgive, then you cannot be forgiven by the Father? Surely Jesus was not speaking to unbelievers in this passage. For it do no good for an unbeliever to forgive others if they have not repented of their sins and accepted Christ. So Matthew 6:15 only applies to the believer. This is important to understand because Jesus said that if you do not forgive, then your Father will not forgive you. This is said to the believer; Which means..... that the believer can not be forgiven by the Father. This is called a Conditional Promise. You forgive, and you will be forgiven. If you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. So this here blows any idea away that says that all saved believers are always going to endure. That is just not what the Bible teaches. Now, can you have Eternal Security? You sure can. If you walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus and you do not walk after the flesh (See Romans 8:1).
Last edited:
Just looking for that Bible quote with the words "free will" in them. Because they do not exist.
It seems to me you have mixed up the Bible with American values of freedom. Which is your choice. But just don't keep trying to present it here as Biblical.
And again - as a born again believer I WANT TO OBEY GOD! I love God, I praise God, and I trust God! I know he is doing a work in me each day. There is no desire to slip back into the ways of the world.
But learning to overcome the sin of pride, that is a whole different story. Jason, I know you have absolutely no Bible training from the way you pick and use Scriptures, but yet you set yourself above everyone and judge them to be antinomian. You set yourself above people, with haughty arrogance. This is PRIDE of the worst sort. Beware, because it is a sin!
"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves." Phil. 2:3
"23 Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.” Jerm. 9:23-24
Again, I was not belittling the man's giving or saying it was wrong. All I am saying is that there is yet another level of giving that Christ talks about. You can either acknowledge that type of giving in the Word or you can't take it the wrong way. Oh, and I am not above the Word of God. If I said something that is not in line with the Word I pray God will correct me like He has in times past.
The sheep that Jesus was referring to are the one's that He is the Good Sheppard to. Jesus told a parable once about finding a lone sheep that had gone astray. Jesus also said once while talking to a group that there are others who are not of this fold and that He must gather them in.
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. Don't worry, He will gather you in also.
Your explanation makes absolutely no sense. Don't worry, He will gather you in also.
Once again, your appalling biblical exegesis is revealed for all to see.
Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."
That means we will never be condemned in the future. We will never come into judgement after we become Christians.
Jesus said, "...all that He has given me, I lose nothing, but raise them up at the last day."
All believers in Christ will be raised on the last day - not a single one will be lost. Which proves all future sins are covered under the blood.
Hebrews 10:14 says, " For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
That statement can not be true if our future sins could be held against us.
Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."
That means we will never be condemned in the future. We will never come into judgement after we become Christians.
Jesus said, "...all that He has given me, I lose nothing, but raise them up at the last day."
All believers in Christ will be raised on the last day - not a single one will be lost. Which proves all future sins are covered under the blood.
Hebrews 10:14 says, " For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."
That statement can not be true if our future sins could be held against us.
K
Keep reading in Romans 8 for Apostle Paul shows no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh, not that there is no condemnation ever again. For those who know the truth in Jesus but continue to live by the flesh (sin) are still held under the law.
Then the passage you are using where it says that Jesus said He will not loose one was only in reference to the original 12 Apostles, as it says I will not loose one "except" for the son of perdition (Judas).
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Then you mention Hebrews 10:14 and the actual context in the Greek for sanctification is a continuous process, not that it has already taken place. For Apostle Paul and the Apostle John both show that only by walking in the Spirit (Light) does one continue to be cleansed from all unrighteousness (sins). Romans 8 parallels 1 John 1:7-2:2
part of receiving the grace of out Lord is having died to sin. past tense.
no one who is dead to sin is any more under the condemnation of it -- you don't dig up corpses and drag them to court.
it may feel that way, when you find sin condemned in yourself - but that guilt & rejection of unrighteousness in you is evidence of the transformation having taken place. it may look that way, when earthly consequences of our failures manifest themselves.
but sin is no longer our master. we have been redeemed - the price of our freedom is paid, and we cannot ever again be put on the slave market. the scripture doesn't say "don't let sin master you, because it's your choice now" - it says sin shall no longer be your master. it's a declaration, not a question or a suggestion!!
are you free to go on doing whatever you want? yes, otherwise it is not grace.
are the things you want to do no longer the things you used to want to do? yes, otherwise you have not been converted.
so will you do the things pertaining to God, or pertaining to wickedness?
we will do things that are righteous, because we have received a grace that extends beyond just forgiveness - we have been, and are being transformed with a power that is beyond a simple legal declaration. this is a freedom that is "free indeed"
what a mighty God we serve!!
He has caused us to serve Him, makes us worthy of serving Him, justifies us to serve Him, and makes us to serve Him with joy
no one who is dead to sin is any more under the condemnation of it -- you don't dig up corpses and drag them to court.
it may feel that way, when you find sin condemned in yourself - but that guilt & rejection of unrighteousness in you is evidence of the transformation having taken place. it may look that way, when earthly consequences of our failures manifest themselves.
but sin is no longer our master. we have been redeemed - the price of our freedom is paid, and we cannot ever again be put on the slave market. the scripture doesn't say "don't let sin master you, because it's your choice now" - it says sin shall no longer be your master. it's a declaration, not a question or a suggestion!!
are you free to go on doing whatever you want? yes, otherwise it is not grace.
are the things you want to do no longer the things you used to want to do? yes, otherwise you have not been converted.
so will you do the things pertaining to God, or pertaining to wickedness?
we will do things that are righteous, because we have received a grace that extends beyond just forgiveness - we have been, and are being transformed with a power that is beyond a simple legal declaration. this is a freedom that is "free indeed"
what a mighty God we serve!!
He has caused us to serve Him, makes us worthy of serving Him, justifies us to serve Him, and makes us to serve Him with joy
V
Amen! \/
You know brother Willie, I'm sitting here thinking how someone can be so blind about the grace of Jesus Christ and believe in their mind that they have to obey in order to maintain their position with the Lord. Then all of a sudden I remembered being that very type of legalistic zealot years back before my eyes were opened to the truth. And you know what helped get me to the end of my ignorance? Humility. I was broken and humbled again and again because my religious philosophy wasn't holding up for me. I shake my head at how stubborn and rebellious and hard-nose religious I was.
Oh bless the Lord Jesus for picking me up again and again each time my stiff-neck attitude brought me down! Hallelujah for His great mercy in getting me to let go of all that hideous nonsense and walking in His liberty and love.
/You know brother Willie, I'm sitting here thinking how someone can be so blind about the grace of Jesus Christ and believe in their mind that they have to obey in order to maintain their position with the Lord. Then all of a sudden I remembered being that very type of legalistic zealot years back before my eyes were opened to the truth. And you know what helped get me to the end of my ignorance? Humility. I was broken and humbled again and again because my religious philosophy wasn't holding up for me. I shake my head at how stubborn and rebellious and hard-nose religious I was.
Oh bless the Lord Jesus for picking me up again and again each time my stiff-neck attitude brought me down! Hallelujah for His great mercy in getting me to let go of all that hideous nonsense and walking in His liberty and love.
God calls us to "Stand." Is standing earning or is it simply doing? Yet, isn't it still doing? Similar to the one who falsely tries to earn?
Those similarities can sometimes get confused.
God has not called us to see grace as an "end-game." If we are free we are free to do as we ought, God gives us a heart that wants to please Him for He is so wonderfully merciful to us. and as that becomes our station of operation of thought we run to please God thru our obedience to Him. Obedience for what? Anything He wants! What does He want? The bible is full of His desires.
We must remember the hundred or so lifespan years we live on earth, becomes the reel -to -reel playback in heaven of what we did with the Grace He gave us will be our account of how we decided to trust God. God has won the battle of Satans rebellion, yet, we have a Spiritual battle that is in real time and is still responsible for our outcome. I am not second guessing God's promises here, simply saying we yet have to live out those promises, unto death. Our real end-game is in "Standing" in things, now, already accomplished in Christ. This standing is an act on our part; yet, not for the sake to earn anything, but to take hold of the victory God has given us. Not an aggressive stand but a "I will not move " stand.
Why do we need to take hold if God's grace is never altered? Because the battle yet wages for the soul of man, regardless of the absolute victory found in standing in Christ. Until we have gone thru a life of "Standing." We are not free from Satan's influences, his suggestions, his attempts to divert us from our stand.
Well even if we lose our stand He will save us! No, He doesn't promise that. He promises that even if we lose our stand He will forgive us. He promises that He will leave the flock to get, even, the one that leaves to call him back. But He cannot over rule our choice to leave. For, He cannot by the very nature of Himself in His righteousness be in view of sin. Thus, Christ must cover him, thru the blood of the cross.
But, if we stay the problem is solved completely. He has given us a way, and not only provided a way but He has procured success in that way, This all started form the payment of sins debt owed on the Cross, and led to our victory thru His resurrection., we must now simply "STAND!" But that is still an act, an act which has nothing to do with earning. Grace saved us and Jesus also said faith saves us. Faithfulness is another way of saying "Standing."
You see God has a plan for us. It is not just getting us to Him, it is having Him be seen thru us. It is His Glory that He wants seen as well> Holiness for us is His end game, which leads to His glory. And what is His glory is ours for we are family thru Sonship with Jesus who is also God thru the triune. Grace does two things, it gives us God's mercy amply applied, to a point of forgivness of sins if we but confess ,.... and second, it empowers us to show Gods glory in our lives as God gives us Jesus' history and resources to stay from sin, if we but "Stand." Not earn! Why is the sinless thing important? Because it is saying Christ's victory has no loop-holes in it--Or, as He said it best, "It is finished!" It's not important to call ourselves sinless, it is important to know the authority of God over Satan. And that this authority rests in each and everyone of His saints. Will our tally sheet be perfect, no. But could our tally sheet be perfect AFTER our regeneration? -Yes, because it has nothing to do with me now, and I don't second guess the completeness of God's victory over Satan.
These chapters of earth are our plight in life. And there is a warfare over our souls going on. Not just in the beginning of our regeneration, where Christ had to come to get us from sins grip, but after, as well. Satan wants you back and he is furious and knows he has a limited time to get you back. He knows he is powerless to get you back, [theres Christ"s guarantee that Satan understands better than most of us], but he also knows he has some time to be that stumbling block to your success found in Him. And he knows if he can get you out of the circle, he can destroy you one-on-one again.
Do you Remember being a sinner and not feeling Satans attacks? That's because He had ya, but after you surrendered to God what happened? All of Hell breaks loose literally! He doesn't have you, and he is powerless to get you back...UNLESS, you come away from your victory which is Christ Jesus. This option is what fuels him and the demons that work for him.
Think of yourself standing in a circle, this circle is Christ in you. As long as you stay in the circle you win life, but if you allow whatever winds that blow to take you off that circle boundaries you are out of the power source of victory, and are headed to death. Now here's the cool part. The God who drew the circle also put anything you need to not let any outside winds or force knock you out of the circle-gauranteed. He made the circle portable, so as to allow you to even go to the gates of Hell losing no power from the circle. He even made it possible to enter into His face with this circle. And this is from the one who is ruler of everything so you know it will happen.
He even says when the winds come He will provide a way around the winds and influences, He Himself will fight your fights for you to simply stay in that life-bearing circle. Of coarse you must recognize the power of your "Will" that it can change those guarantees by stepping out by choice of that circle.
Both staying in the circle and leaving it has your will in control. But staying victorious in it is Gods job. But He has empowered you to not only stay but flourish in it.
The "Parables of the seeds" gives us insight into Satan's abilities:
As We see Jesus talking we see Him talking to the saints, when he describes Satans ammo and abilities: It says Satan and his demons can steal the truth away, sin opens that door. Satan can make us easily offended, causing us to sin. But if we allow God to battle for us we win here- guaranteed! Satan can divert our minds, something he has no power to do if we but stand, but if we do not it is a sin. But there is a group of people He describes that bore fruit beyond their ability to bare, this is the group who stood. Not in themselves but in Christ Jesus; the circle.. These people show the glory of God. God's holiness is seen and in us. It is worthy to note that thru all of this warfare if we "Stand" in the circle God will not let any one of us slip out of His grip.
None of this is earning, or us availing success. But it is recognizing our will as a player here. We must simply stand, a burden God describes as light, and easy. But yet, one we must procure.
"Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, [speaking to brethren here,] we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32.
Scripture does not say, "Faith without works is not as good as trying,but it's not a deal breaker., because all have sinned and fall from God's glory" It says, 'Faith without works is dead." That's a call to arms in the area of "Standing." Now it's hard to hear those words and not associate it with the Salvation thru works camps, but that is my point here. We can't earn anything we do, however, need to "Stand." Which is the work of obedience He is commanding us to be, not just do.For if we are Christ-like we are Christ empowered.
Those similarities can sometimes get confused.
God has not called us to see grace as an "end-game." If we are free we are free to do as we ought, God gives us a heart that wants to please Him for He is so wonderfully merciful to us. and as that becomes our station of operation of thought we run to please God thru our obedience to Him. Obedience for what? Anything He wants! What does He want? The bible is full of His desires.
We must remember the hundred or so lifespan years we live on earth, becomes the reel -to -reel playback in heaven of what we did with the Grace He gave us will be our account of how we decided to trust God. God has won the battle of Satans rebellion, yet, we have a Spiritual battle that is in real time and is still responsible for our outcome. I am not second guessing God's promises here, simply saying we yet have to live out those promises, unto death. Our real end-game is in "Standing" in things, now, already accomplished in Christ. This standing is an act on our part; yet, not for the sake to earn anything, but to take hold of the victory God has given us. Not an aggressive stand but a "I will not move " stand.
Why do we need to take hold if God's grace is never altered? Because the battle yet wages for the soul of man, regardless of the absolute victory found in standing in Christ. Until we have gone thru a life of "Standing." We are not free from Satan's influences, his suggestions, his attempts to divert us from our stand.
Well even if we lose our stand He will save us! No, He doesn't promise that. He promises that even if we lose our stand He will forgive us. He promises that He will leave the flock to get, even, the one that leaves to call him back. But He cannot over rule our choice to leave. For, He cannot by the very nature of Himself in His righteousness be in view of sin. Thus, Christ must cover him, thru the blood of the cross.
But, if we stay the problem is solved completely. He has given us a way, and not only provided a way but He has procured success in that way, This all started form the payment of sins debt owed on the Cross, and led to our victory thru His resurrection., we must now simply "STAND!" But that is still an act, an act which has nothing to do with earning. Grace saved us and Jesus also said faith saves us. Faithfulness is another way of saying "Standing."
You see God has a plan for us. It is not just getting us to Him, it is having Him be seen thru us. It is His Glory that He wants seen as well> Holiness for us is His end game, which leads to His glory. And what is His glory is ours for we are family thru Sonship with Jesus who is also God thru the triune. Grace does two things, it gives us God's mercy amply applied, to a point of forgivness of sins if we but confess ,.... and second, it empowers us to show Gods glory in our lives as God gives us Jesus' history and resources to stay from sin, if we but "Stand." Not earn! Why is the sinless thing important? Because it is saying Christ's victory has no loop-holes in it--Or, as He said it best, "It is finished!" It's not important to call ourselves sinless, it is important to know the authority of God over Satan. And that this authority rests in each and everyone of His saints. Will our tally sheet be perfect, no. But could our tally sheet be perfect AFTER our regeneration? -Yes, because it has nothing to do with me now, and I don't second guess the completeness of God's victory over Satan.
These chapters of earth are our plight in life. And there is a warfare over our souls going on. Not just in the beginning of our regeneration, where Christ had to come to get us from sins grip, but after, as well. Satan wants you back and he is furious and knows he has a limited time to get you back. He knows he is powerless to get you back, [theres Christ"s guarantee that Satan understands better than most of us], but he also knows he has some time to be that stumbling block to your success found in Him. And he knows if he can get you out of the circle, he can destroy you one-on-one again.
Do you Remember being a sinner and not feeling Satans attacks? That's because He had ya, but after you surrendered to God what happened? All of Hell breaks loose literally! He doesn't have you, and he is powerless to get you back...UNLESS, you come away from your victory which is Christ Jesus. This option is what fuels him and the demons that work for him.
Think of yourself standing in a circle, this circle is Christ in you. As long as you stay in the circle you win life, but if you allow whatever winds that blow to take you off that circle boundaries you are out of the power source of victory, and are headed to death. Now here's the cool part. The God who drew the circle also put anything you need to not let any outside winds or force knock you out of the circle-gauranteed. He made the circle portable, so as to allow you to even go to the gates of Hell losing no power from the circle. He even made it possible to enter into His face with this circle. And this is from the one who is ruler of everything so you know it will happen.
He even says when the winds come He will provide a way around the winds and influences, He Himself will fight your fights for you to simply stay in that life-bearing circle. Of coarse you must recognize the power of your "Will" that it can change those guarantees by stepping out by choice of that circle.
Both staying in the circle and leaving it has your will in control. But staying victorious in it is Gods job. But He has empowered you to not only stay but flourish in it.
The "Parables of the seeds" gives us insight into Satan's abilities:
As We see Jesus talking we see Him talking to the saints, when he describes Satans ammo and abilities: It says Satan and his demons can steal the truth away, sin opens that door. Satan can make us easily offended, causing us to sin. But if we allow God to battle for us we win here- guaranteed! Satan can divert our minds, something he has no power to do if we but stand, but if we do not it is a sin. But there is a group of people He describes that bore fruit beyond their ability to bare, this is the group who stood. Not in themselves but in Christ Jesus; the circle.. These people show the glory of God. God's holiness is seen and in us. It is worthy to note that thru all of this warfare if we "Stand" in the circle God will not let any one of us slip out of His grip.
None of this is earning, or us availing success. But it is recognizing our will as a player here. We must simply stand, a burden God describes as light, and easy. But yet, one we must procure.
"Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, [speaking to brethren here,] we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32.
Scripture does not say, "Faith without works is not as good as trying,but it's not a deal breaker., because all have sinned and fall from God's glory" It says, 'Faith without works is dead." That's a call to arms in the area of "Standing." Now it's hard to hear those words and not associate it with the Salvation thru works camps, but that is my point here. We can't earn anything we do, however, need to "Stand." Which is the work of obedience He is commanding us to be, not just do.For if we are Christ-like we are Christ empowered.