The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[eternally-gratefull]

This is the perfect example.

This person actually believes an individual can be addicted to alcohol and be going out and getting drunk on the weekends and still be a "saved Christian," so long as they are torn up inside about their conduct.

No, This is proof positive that one is drowning in his own legalism and self righteousness.

A child of God would not be going out every weekend continually without pain, suffering, guilt, and a deep seeded chastenign from God.

Even the prodigal son did not stay away, So mr Skinski here is not only bearing false witness, But he is proving once again he has no idea what other people actually believe, r what scripture says.

In other words, so long as one "feels bad" about their wickedness one can take assurance that they are saved.

sorry, But salvation is not a feel good emotional thing, again your wrong. And again you prove why you should be on ignore along side your brother jason here (I had you on once, about to put you back there.

The same applies for serial killers and child molesters and these people (like Eternally Grateful, Budman etc.) know it which is why they won't directly address specifics like these. They can only respond with a very general allusion to everyone being a sinner via perverting 1Joh 1:8-10 and Rom 7:14-25.

James.

If we break the least of the law. we are as guilty as if broken the whole law.

What does the law say.

Love the lord your God
sabbath
Honor parent
do not dont murder
do not commit adultry
do not steal
do not bear false witness
do not covet

so it is ok for him to bear false witness, to not love the lord his God 24/7 (which no one can do) even though the bible says he is just as guilty as that child molestor and rapist.


dude, you excuses for your own sin, and holier than thou statements, your bearing false witness against others, is not only mind boggling, but OLD. AND QUITE SICKENING.

I suggest you and Jason both get on your knees and repent, and beg for gods mercy, because until you realise you need for it, You will never see the kingdom of God

 

[phil112]

......................There absolutely are consequences to sinning, but all JUDGMENT for sinning has been poured out at the Cross.

Who told you that? Why don't you post a link to your source?
It's flat wrong. Christ paid the price for our sin. Judgement is a future event.
God has enough assets in His account, thanks to Christ, to pay for everyones sins. But each individual has to have God redeem those sins.
It is very possible, indeed the word talks about this very thing, that God will say, "Y'know, I have the ability to redeem you but you keep going back to sin. One of the conditions, and Christ told you this, was that you had to stop sinning and turn over a new leaf. You have no intention of doing that and I am not going to purchase a basket full of rotten apples with the precious price I would have to pay".

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski:

I would like an apology. We may not think we are on the same side, but you know you judged me wrong in saying that I am for believers saying that they can be child molesters to continue to keep being that way as long as they confess. I do not believe that. Nor do I believe that to be the case if they are a murderer or a thief.

So saying you are sorry for judging me wrongfully in what I believe would be the good and Christ like thing to do.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.

I will be praying for you.

Sincereily,

~ Jason.


...

I have not judged you wrong.

You are a sin defender albeit a little more subtle than most.

You promote Penal Substitution and thus you view the death of Christ as a cloak for wickedness (ie. Christ's righteousness is a substitute for your wickedness).

You also made a statement in this thread about an alcoholic "stumbling" in which you clearly make an allusion to this notion of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent. Clearly your theology has a believer occasionally engaging in known wickedness with the only requisite being that they repent from that wickedness when it occurs. Thus so long as they die on the "repent side" of the sin/repent cycle then all is hunky dory. This view completely undermines the reality of inward iniquity. A pure heart is a pure heart and when we are purified we don't even entertain the commission of evil. There is no such thing as "stumbling" and getting drunk or "stumbling" and engaging in fornication.

Will you address this point or just skip over it like you have previously?

You main issue is that you reject Calvinism yet still operate from a theological position rooted in the same foundation as Calvinism, that foundation being Original Sin and a substitutional view of the death of Christ.

I have raised this issue with you before but you declined to directly address it. Instead you just offered a vague rebuttal and just made the allusion that I was wrong.

The only real difference between you and the Calvinist is that you believe in a sin/repent cycle whilst they teach a sin/confess cycle. They believe in Total Depravity and you likely believe in only a partial depravity. Thus just like John Wesley you try and uphold FREE WILL in conjunction with the doctrine of Original Sin.

You are caught in a false paradigm and it only takes a little error at the root of something to ensure an entire foundation of error.

Think about it.

 

[convallaria]

He is lost in the account he can not fathom there is a HUGE difference in hating a false doctrine of sinless perfection. and loving sin.

One can hat sin so bad it rips their insides apart (like paul) yet still admit they are still in sin.

the definition of a hypocrite is to teach others to do something you yourself CANT do, or REFUSE to do.

That is Jason and Skinski (and we can add Sea Bass and a few others to that list) to a T, the sad part is, they can not even see it, their pride is too deep.

Nicely put, thank you!

 

[Skinski7]

Well, when you tell others that their future sin is forgiven them, you are giving them a license to sin.

Yet you believe that Jesus "paid the price due" for sin by being a wrath substitute. If Jesus absorbed the wrath of God then that means future sins have been "paid for."

You adherence to the false doctrine of Penal Substitution completely undermines your opposition to "future sins being forgiven" because you believe that forgiveness is contingent on the "price being paid."

If you deny this then you would have to uphold that the "sin debt" can still be owed even when paid for.

You have clearly in previous posts upheld Penal Substitution as being true and thus you logically put your own foot in your own mouth.

 

[convallaria]

Skinski:

I would like an apology. We may not think we are on the same side, but you know you judged me wrong in saying that I am for believers saying that they can be child molesters to continue to keep being that way as long as they confess. I do not believe that. Nor do I believe that to be the case if they are a murderer or a thief....

Still making false accusations!

 

[JGIG]

Funny thing is when you guys get your dander all up and out of control over "works," you ONLY stipulate the works that are a fruit of salvation when you are called on your condemnation of all things related to "works."

Have read through the comments here twice now, and continue to see that "works" (without specification) are condemned as the false teachings of legalists............UNTIL you guys are called on your teachings, and then you back peddle to say that works which are the fruit of salvation are ok.

There are not 'fruits of salvation'. That's a made-up term.

There are either fruits of the flesh or the Fruit of the Spirit.

Even then, none of you dare to explicitly state what importance these "works/fruits" play in the life of a Christian. Just kind of a "brush over acceptance" of them, and then back to the same old drum beat.

That's a big blind spot for folks that tend toward legalism and conditional security: It's NOT all about YOU.

The Fruit of the Spirit is not all about YOU.

It's about OTHERS.

Loving them. Serving them. Bringing the Good News of the Work of Christ to them.

The Fruit of the Spirit enables and facilitates that.

Are there benefits to the believer? Yep. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control all make our lives more enjoyable and peaceful.

-JGIG

 

[convallaria]

So just giving into evil is the better option? Sorry, I just don't buy that. We know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do.

Wow you just can't help yourself ! You are exposing your own sin by continuously making false accusations and then claiming to be sinless yourself! wow.

 

[Jason0047]

what on earth are you talking about?

Who does Jesus speak to in Matthew 6:15? Jesus says if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. Does this sound like Jesus is talking to unbelievers here? If so, then how could that possibly help them? How could such words help an unbeliever? For if they forgive others, they will not be forgiven because they would still need to admit they are a sinner and accept Christ as their Savior. So such words only apply to the believer. This is important to understand because Jesus is telling BELIEVERS that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. Some folks are claiming here that once you are a believer that you will always follow God and do what is right in time. But such a statement would not be true if Jesus gave believers a Conditional Promise in regards to their salvation in Matthew 6:15, though. For one cannot obviously be saved and yet also not be forgiven by the Father; And Jesus would not even say such a thing in Matthew 6:14 to a believer if he knew that they would eventually in time forgive others. His words in Matthew 6:15 would be meaningless background noise that would have no real weight to them if a believer would just eventually forgive.

 

[Skinski7]

Eternally Grateful,

You just do what you have always done. You completely IGNORE what I write and dance around the subject and continue to argue in favour of being able to engage in wickedness and not be condemned. That is the bottom line.

You then allude to a few Bible passages and act as if they cancel out the standard of righteousness Jesus commanded in the Sermon on the Mount. You don't believe the teachings of Jesus.

You see, people like you NEVER directly address the plain statements of Jesus Christ. You dance around "heart purity" and "faith working by love" and "love upholding the law" and respond without acknowledging any of that. You do this in all your responses.

You basic premise is that everyone is wicked and that none can truly love God or their neighbour. Thus, in your mind, anyone who claims to have forsaken all known wickedness and who claims to actually love God and their neighbour is either deceived or a liar.

You truly believe that wickedness is more powerful than godliness over those in a flesh body. You must truly believe that because you utterly deny that anyone can truly be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure whereby they are zealous of righteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

Still making false accusations!

Did you not read what he wrote? He accused me of the belief that I thought that a child molester could still be a child molester and be saved as long as they confessed their sin. I said he falsely accused me of believing that. Not sure what you are seeing.

 

[senzi]

Well, 2 Timothy 2:13 does not prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

Here is what the passage says:

2 Timothy 2:13:
“if we are faithless, he remains faithful– for he cannot deny himself.” (ESV)

In fact, this verse is usually quoted with little or no commentary, as the verse by itself appears to support the notion that even if we are without faith (i.e., unbelieving), God will still give us eternal life. But what OSAS proponents fail to do is consider the surrounding verses, and it’s obvious as to why they do this, as the surrounding text contains two statements against the doctrine of OSAS. The verse immediately prior, verse 12, says:

“if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;” (2 Timothy 2:12, ESV)

The first statement, if we endure, we will also reign with him has the obvious implication that if we don’t endure, we will not reign with him. And the second statement if we deny him, he also will deny us is a pretty clear statement meaning exactly that.

But all that aside, it’s important to notice what the OSAS proof text doesn’t say, viz., it does not say that God remains faithful to the faithless person; it simply says that God remains faithful. But that begs the question, To whom does God remain faithful? The very verse in question answers… “for he cannot deny himself”. So it seems reasonable to conclude that God remains faithful to Himself. So if a believer becomes an unbeliever, God will remain faithful to his promises to punish the unbeliever.

For example:

Ezekiel 18:26 - “When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.”

Romans 11:20-22 - “That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.”

God remains faithful; He will not break His promises.

Verdict: 2 Timothy 2:13 does not prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

You appear to only see the letter
The letter kills but the spirit gives life

 

[Jason0047]

Wow you just can't help yourself ! You are exposing your own sin by continuously making false accusations and then claiming to be sinless yourself! wow.

I don't get the impression that Eternally Grateful is promoting a believer to stop sinning. Nor do I believe he is promoting holiness and or righteous living. If he has, I just have not see him do so because he keeps essentally pushing the idea that we are all sinners before God. Any time I am telling others to stop sinning and to live righteously, he attacks me for it. Why don't you ask him what 1 John 1:8 means.

 

[Jason0047]

You appear to only see the letter
The letter kills but the spirit gives life

Jesus also said his words are spirit and they are life. Jesus also said man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God (Which is a reference to OT Scriptures that says we shall live by every Word of God that proceeds out of our mouth). Jesus also said, "if a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Jesus also said, "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Do you know that all who sin and do iniquity in Christ's Kingdom will be removed from His Kingdom? Read Matthew 13:41.

Also, read the end of Matthew chapter 7 on obeying the words of Jesus and the parable that is associated with it. What is better? To obey Jesus or not to obey Jesus?

 

[Skinski7]

Did you not read what he wrote? He accused me of the belief that I thought that a child molester could still be a child molester and be saved as long as they confessed their sin. I said he falsely accused me of believing that. Not sure what you are seeing.

You clearly stated...

Is an alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober a hypocrite? Can he really be called that if he honestly stumbled despite him in striving to do what is good and right on his path to sobriety?

What is the difference between an alcoholic "stumbling" and getting drunk and a child molester "stumbling" and molesting a child?

Now did you not read what I wrote?

How about a child molester Jason?

How about a serial murderer Jason?


You argue in favour of sin just like the rest of them.

One does not "trip over" and get drunk. Getting drunk is a choice and drunkards will not inherit the kingdom. Don't deceive yourself.

Abiding in Jesus Christ is the antithesis to going out and getting drunk, even a single time. Likewise with theft, murder, sexual sin.

The only sin ever permissible for the genuine Christian is a sin of ignorance.


The sin defenders on this board argue in favour of being able to willfully sin against God (rebellion) and at the same time be in a reconciled state with God. They argue in favour of being able to sin and not surely die and it is very clear that you argue in favour of the same thing Jason.

You then responded with...

a saint is supposed to stop sinning or otherwise they are a slave to sin. But that does not mean God's people have not sinned in their walk with God. God's grace is there for those who honestly do stumble on their road to recovery in being sober.

Getting drunk is not stumbling. One does not accidentally trip over, so to speak, and get drunk. Getting drunk is an intentional act of the will (lest one's drink was spiked).

You clearly imply that true believers can occasionally sin and not surely die so long as repent.

Do you have any testimony of your heart being made pure Jason?

Does your theology uphold heart purity in a believer Jason?

Working iniquity reveals iniquity within Jason and such a thing is no light matter. One does not "stumble" into rebellion against God. Rebellion is a very serious thing and that is why the Bible speaks of no sacrifice remaining for willful sin. We are cleansed to remain clean and any notion of ongoing occasionally wickedness is an afront to that.

Now I am not saying there is no mercy for willful sin. What I am saying is that there is no mercy lest our hearts have been purified by faith and a pure heart does not willfully sin.

You believe in Penal Substitution and thus you think the "sacrifice always remains" whether one is sinning or not. You have to believe that because that is what that doctrine teaches. I doubt you'll directly address this statement of mine because you have ignored it previously by using a broad brush to simply deny it.

Jesus died to effect a real cleansing from our past sins, a cleansing obtained via us walking in the light as He is in the light, a walk only possible through the dynamic of a godly sorrow working a true repentance. The root of iniquity in the true Christian has been utterly destroyed, our old man is crucified.

The cross to you is a provision provided via a substitution. Basically you swap places with Jesus. His righteousness is credited to you and your sin is credited to Him. You partake of the exchange via trust. The Bible does not teach anything like that.

The Bible teaches that the blood purges us of our past sins when we enter into covenant with God, a covenant entered into through repentance and faith. There is no room for "stumbling" into "rebellion" on the odd occasion.

You do not understand the Ministry of Reconciliation at all Jason which is why you treat repentance as something one can do over and over again (cos one may stumble over and over again).

The root of iniquity is NEVER purged in your religion Jason.

Cannot you see that?

If you understood anything about the death of the old man or even the purging of sin you would NEVER allude to a Christian "stumbling" into rebellion against God. Rebellion is not a stumble but an intentional act of the will.

The Spirit of life in Jesus Christ SAVES US FROM REBELLION and I think this is what you are unable to perceive.

The rebellion MUST cease once and for all. Repentance unto salvation is not something to be repeated.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The thing is - This is what God has done through his Son Jesus Christ -

We are fathered by God - Gal. 4:6 Because you are his sons, god sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father. So you are no longer a slave but God's child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir. . . . So either God is our Father or he isn't -

We are born again of His Spirit . . . we are born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23) - what is it then? Oops God's birth of us isn't really permanent and therefore that seed isn't really incorruptible?

We are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15)- God used the word adopted in this Roman culture because by Roman law they could disinherit a natural born son but NOT an adopted Son. God uses words and these words show the permanence of our salvation. . .

We are holy ones by nature for we are partakers of God's nature (1 Peter 1:4) . . .

We are sealed with holy Spirit - God's mark upon his possessions (Eph. 1:13) and we are sealed until the day of redemption.

God guaranteed us an inheritance (1 Co. 1:22, 2 Co. 5:5, Eph. 1:14) - or is God's guarantee worth anything at all?

NOTHING can separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:37-39) - oops, I guess my faults and failures can separate me . .

We are already raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenly realm with him (Eph. 2:6) Our citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20). Our inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade is KEPT in heaven for us. (1 Peter 1:4) . . . Does God revoke our citizenship - make void our passports?

God has created spirit within the born again believer making them a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) making them His children; and members of the body of Christ (Eph. 3:6) . . . Oh but you must not be a very important one because God is going to amputate you from the body . . . Read how important each individual member of the body is in 1 Cor. 12:12-27.

Now either God meant all of the above regarding SALVATION, either God promised and is faithful to his kids or He isn't. I prefer to believe that He will keep those promises He has made. AND because of those promises our desire is to be pleasing unto Him in our WALK to show Him that what He did was not in vain.

 

[Jason0047]

Yet you believe that Jesus "paid the price due" for sin by being a wrath substitute. If Jesus absorbed the wrath of God then that means future sins have been "paid for."

You adherence to the false doctrine of Penal Substitution completely undermines your opposition to "future sins being forgiven" because you believe that forgiveness is contingent on the "price being paid."

If you deny this then you would have to uphold that the "sin debt" can still be owed even when paid for.

You have clearly in previous posts upheld Penal Substitution as being true and thus you logically put your own foot in your own mouth.

No, that is not what I believe. You misunderstand how I hold to the Biblical view of Substitionary Atonement.

For I have said before that I do not believe that future sin is forgiven. I don't care what others think about what their version of the Substitionary Atonement means. All I care about is what does the Bible say about such a thing. Yes, I know you do not think it is taught in the Bible.

But I believe that the Substitionary Atonement ONLY goes into effect when a person aligns themselves with God's will. This is first admitting that they are a sinner, and accepting Jesus as their Savioir. Then from there, they have to continue to walk in Christ's righteous ways (by allowing Christ's righteousness to work within them) according to His Word. So a person is saved when they yield to God in both Justification (Initial salvation by receiving the Lord) and in Sanctification (Continued salvation by walking with God and His good ways). The moment the believer sins and refuses to repent of such sin, then God's Spirit can withdraw from them and the Substitionary Atonement will then not be applied to them anymore. It is sort of like having one's name blotted out of the book of life. One's name was originally there and then it was "x"-ed out by the fact that they sinned and have refused to repent of that sin. For a believer can go from a saved state to an unsaved state and then back again to a saved state (See the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20).

 

[JGIG]

This is the false notion that all beleivers will in time do good. But is that really what the Bible teaches? No. How do we know? Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Was he talking to unbelievers or believers? If Jesus was talking to unbelievers then how can his message of not forgiving others be applied to them if they do not believe? So we realize that Matthew 6:15 is talking to believers only. This is important to understand because Jesus says that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

Yep. Before the Cross, forgive or you won't be forgiven.

After the Cross, believe in Christ and be forgiven (Acts 2:38).

Then, forgive because you are forgiven, not to get forgiven, because forgiveness has already been given in Christ (Col. 3:13, Eph. 4:32).

Obligatory forgiveness is not genuine; forgiveness from the heart of one forgiven is.

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

No, that is not what I believe. You misunderstand how I hold to the Biblical view of Substitionary Atonement.

For I have said before that I do not believe that future sin is forgiven. I don't care what others think about what their version of the Substitionary Atonement means. All I care about is what does the Bible say about such a thing. Yes, I know you do not think it is taught in the Bible.

But I believe that the Substitionary Atonement ONLY goes into effect when a person aligns themselves with God's will. This is first admitting that they are a sinner, and accepting Jesus as their Savioir. Then from there, they have to continue to walk in Christ's righteous ways (by allowing Christ's righteousness to work within them) according to His Word. So a person is saved when they yield to God in both Justification (Initial salvation by receiving the Lord) and in Sanctification (Continued salvation by walking with God and His good ways). The moment the believer sins and refuses to repent of such sin, then God's Spirit can withdraw from them and the Substitionary Atonement will then not be applied to them anymore. It is sort of like having one's name blotted out of the book of life. One's name was originally there and then it was "x"-ed out by the fact that they sinned and have refused to repent of that sin. For a believer can go from a saved state to an unsaved state and then back again to a saved state (See the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20).

In effect, Jesus is not your Savior because of what He did.... YOU are your own savior, because of how well you keep on doing certain things, day by day.

The Jews already had this well in effect with the Sacrificial System.

 

[Jason0047]

You clearly stated...



What is the difference between an alcoholic "stumbling" and getting drunk and a child molester "stumbling" and molesting a child?

Now did you not read what I wrote?

You are still too busy casting stones to see clearly. First, I was not referencing all types of sins (i.e. Especially those sins that are very serious like the ones you mentioned). For obviously my statement would not apply to one committing suicide (For one would not know if they would come back to the dead or not so as to repent of such a sin). Second, I said that the alcoholic was on his road to recovery in BEING SOBER. Meaning, he was on his way to putting his addiction out of his life. A stumble into sin does not mean that the person is habitually sinning and or that he is going to not receive God's grace so as to help him to stop sinning in that sin that is a challenge for him. But Jesus said all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven besides speaking bad against the Spirit. We also know that a believer can be forgiven of really horrible sins by just looking at the life of David. However, I believe there are greater sins that are a lot more serious that the Lord will help a believer with when they first accept Him. I believe the cases where someone who is a child molester or a murderer is not saved if they keep doing those types of sin over and over. God changes the heart of a man to not want to do those very serious and evil things anymore. He can take away those desires. I am not saying that other sins unto spiritual death are not cause for concern for believers in regards to their salvation. What I am saying is not all sin is the same. Jesus said, there is a GREATER sin. 1 John 5:16-18 says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. There is unintentional sin. Hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). There is unforgivable sins. Besides, do you think the Tax Collector was not forgiven in Luke 18:9-14? How was the thief on the cross forgiven?