The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists

[convallaria]

So I guess the Apostle was teaching "cockiness" when he wrote this?

Ephesians 2: 8 .) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No! the apostle was not being cocky, he clearly had Holy Spirit boldness and confidence not in himself, but in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you read my previous post you would have seen that I said there are works....and works. There are works of the flesh that will never secure salvation...and then there are works that follow salvation: the second kind are the works we are called to in the Ephesians verses you quoted.

By grace we are saved, through faith, not of works (the first kind) lest any man should boast. But being born again it means that WE are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (the second kind) which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thank you again for proving the point.

 

[Jason0047]

What is better? To do good or to do evil?
What is better? To be a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin? (See Romans 6).
What is better? To serve two masters or to serve only Jesus Christ?
For did not Jesus say we are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect?
Does not Paul say sin shall have no dominion (control) over you?
What does a double minded man mean to you? Is it not someone who thinks they can serve both God and sin?
Does it sound someone has a personal motivation to hold onto their sin if they say we cannot stop sinning?
What is more sad? To be God's servant whereby we do His will (with Him working in us), or to continue to sin as the old man like an unbeliever?
For what describes a person who is born again and is a new man? A man who lives holy and righteous or a man who is a slave to his lusts and affections?

For shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, God forbid. You are servant to whom ye yield yourselves servants to whom ye will obey.

For the Scriptures say that he that sins is of the devil; They also say that he that does righteousness is of God.

 

[wattie]

Jason,

I'm pretty sure Bud and others and I are not saying - believe in Jesus.. and then go and do whatever you want and sin as much as you like.

Most OSAS believers in this site are now denying this teaching and saying along the lines of-

'I am now free in Jesus Christ.. completely secure.. and because of that I want to serve Jesus back'

So all the verses about obedience and doing righteous works etc... we do not deny.. we take them completely..

But they are all works done because the price for not keeping.. the price for disobedience.. the righteous requirements.. have been taken care of in being given eternal life.. by Jesus Christ. 'Nailed to the cross'

Propitiation

Justification

Dunno how many times this has been on the round-about.. but oh well..

 

[Jason0047]

There are several different types of OSAS proponents. There are those OSAS Proponents (Classic OSAS) of whom I have talked with both in person and online that you can indeed sin and still be saved. For they said that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and still be saved. Another group of OSAS proponents (Mid Range OSAS) will say that one cannot live in habitual sin or they are not saved; However, they also will double talk out of their mouth and say that dying in one or two unrepentant sins (Like lying, lusting, and hating) will not cause them to forfeit their salvation. Then there is the OSAS Lite folk who believe that if you live in sin habitually, you were never saved or born again to begin with (Which is also not true). However, the silver bullet for all forms of OSAS is "Sinless Perfectionism" or by the fact that the believer cannot ever stop sinning. For one who says they cannot stop sinning because they have a fallen nature is merely making an excuse that they will sin sometime in the future (and that they will forever be a slave to sin in this life --- which is wrong). For the drunk who has overcome his addiction and has become sober, may have stumbled on his road to recovery, but the drunk who says he is sober and does not have a problem and yet says he will forever be a slave to the demon in his bottle is only fooling himself that he is free.

 

[Jason0047]

For Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.

 

[Blain]

You know something have learned ( and trust me it took a long time to learn) is that I am weak I have little to no power if I try to do anything in faith one my own I will fail if I move without God moving first then things go bad I am just plain weak. But In my weakness he is strong, because of my weakness I have to rely so heavily on him on his power his love. I cannot rely on myself even by 1% my hope my faith my strength and my confidence is found only in him and only when I rely 100% on him not me.

The same goes for being righteous and clean in his eyes, to not be a sinner. If we think that we are clean or righteous because of how little we sin then we are working in the flesh, but say God says we are righteous clean and holy because of him because we don't judge who we are because of how well we obey but instead by his power and love his mercy and grace by his blood alone. If I am to be holy clean or pure sinless in any way it sure isn't going to be because I never sin because I am so obedient it's going to be because of him and him alone it's going to be because of his great and vast love and power.

I can be told that if I don't cease from sin I will go to hell but I only care what God says of me what he sees when he searches the deepest depths of my heart and I can say this he doesn't say I am who I have been told I am by perfectionists

 

[Jason0047]

You know something have learned ( and trust me it took a long time to learn) is that I am weak I have little to no power if I try to do anything in faith one my own I will fail if I move without God moving first then things go bad I am just plain weak. But In my weakness he is strong, because of my weakness I have to rely so heavily on him on his power his love. I cannot rely on myself even by 1% my hope my faith my strength and my confidence is found only in him and only when I rely 100% on him not me.

The same goes for being righteous and clean in his eyes, to not be a sinner. If we think that we are clean or righteous because of how little we sin then we are working in the flesh, but say God says we are righteous clean and holy because of him because we don't judge who we are because of how well we obey but instead by his power and love his mercy and grace by his blood alone. If I am to be holy clean or pure sinless in any way it sure isn't going to be because I never sin because I am so obedient it's going to be because of him and him alone it's going to be because of his great and vast love and power.

I can be told that if I don't cease from sin I will go to hell but I only care what God says of me what he sees when he searches the deepest depths of my heart and I can say this he doesn't say I am who I have been told I am by perfectionists

Not sure why you think it is such a bad thing to stop sinning. But please know that if you do continue in sin (So that grace may abound), and you do not repent of it and or you do plan to make excuses to never overcome your sin and be a slave to sin, then you will have to give an answer to the Lord according to His Word (Why that is so). For the Scriptures say that any man who rejects Christ's words those very words will then judge them on the last day (John 12:48). In other words, it sounds like you believe grace is a license to sin. For by saying that you will always sin sometime in the future is essentially making that statement come true.

 

[dcontroversal]

Some questions:
In James: faith without works is dead- what faith is James referring to? It is not eternal salvation being discussed.

Corinthians: remember this is addressed to a local body, a church.

Revelation: there are different judgements for unsaved and saved. Saved- receive rewards in heaven. Some saved are unfaithful. They get less reward. But are in heaven.

You have these verses without context

No doubt..........workers for salvation have to have their works and self interjected for sure.....and of course without sin as well..........!

 

[dcontroversal]

Jason,

I'm pretty sure Bud and others and I are not saying - believe in Jesus.. and then go and do whatever you want and sin as much as you like.

Most OSAS believers in this site are now denying this teaching and saying along the lines of-

'I am now free in Jesus Christ.. completely secure.. and because of that I want to serve Jesus back'

So all the verses about obedience and doing righteous works etc... we do not deny.. we take them completely..

But they are all works done because the price for not keeping.. the price for disobedience.. the righteous requirements.. have been taken care of in being given eternal life.. by Jesus Christ. 'Nailed to the cross'

Propitiation

Justification

Dunno how many times this has been on the round-about.. but oh well..

You know that is the biggest false lying argument that they have to propagate.......they cannot understand the concept of being totally justified, saved and sealed in Christ which allows us to serve and places in us the desire to serve.....they canot get over the fact that Christ and his work is sufficient to save someone eternally while still being bound in a failing, wicked, fleshly body that sins.....no concept for sure and because we admit the truth they automatically say, claim and lie when they say we are saying we can serve sin and live anyway we want to.....!

 

[Jason0047]

No doubt..........workers for salvation have to have their works and self interjected for sure.....and of course without sin as well..........!

Again, it is not the believer doing the work, but it is God doing the "good work" in the believer. Also, if one is not against sin and strives not to overcome it, then they are basically given into sin and making an excuse that they will forever sin (Which is just another way of saying that they have a license to sin) because they know grace will just be there for them the next time they do sin (Which they know is going to happen). They are defeated by sin by the fact that they cannot overcome sin and they do not believe they will have true victory in Christ Jesus over sin in this life. They are a conquered people trapped and enslaved to their sin. So this means, that an ex murderer can still murder sometime in the future because he just can't help it. This means that an ex thief will always steal because he cannot help it, too. They will never be different or changed or born again and a new creature in Christ. They are slaves to sin.

 

[Jason0047]

You know that is the biggest false lying argument that they have to propagate.......they cannot understand the concept of being totally justified, saved and sealed in Christ which allows us to serve and places in us the desire to serve.....they canot get over the fact that Christ and his work is sufficient to save someone eternally while still being bound in a failing, wicked, fleshly body that sins.....no concept for sure and because we admit the truth they automatically say, claim and lie when they say we are saying we can serve sin and live anyway we want to.....!

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit and not some type of mental acknowledgment.

 

[phil112]

..............................Aside from God's unconditional love and acceptance.................

You should be clear on whether Bob George wrote the whole thing. I can't tell, I can only assume. Quotation brackets would have worked.
Aside from that, the above part of it is simply a lie, regardless of who said it.
There is no sin allowed in heaven. God does not accept everything.
There is a huge difference in unconditional love and unconditional acceptance.
I will always love my daughters. If they turn to whoring, or drugs, for example, I will not accept them, and neither will God.
He will love you, but He will not accept you unless you repent. It is foolishness to believe otherwise.

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, it is not the believer doing the work, but it is God doing the "good work" in the believer. Also, if one is not against sin and strives not to overcome it, then they are basically given into sin and making an excuse that they will forever sin (Which is just another way of saying that they have a license to sin) because they know grace will just be there for them the next time they do sin (Which they know is going to happen). They are defeated by sin by the fact that they cannot overcome sin and they do not believe they will have true victory in Christ Jesus over sin in this life. They are a conquered people trapped and enslaved to their sin. So this means, that an ex murderer can still murder sometime in the future because he just can't help it. This means that an ex thief will always steal because he cannot help it, too. They will never be different or changed or born again and a new creature in Christ. They are slaves to sin.

Actually the above statement is your logically concluded farce based upon your salvation lite false gospel Jason...it is the hole you have dug yourself into and is not at all what I or others teach and believe.....and your failure to acknowledge 1st John 1:8 and the present tense proves your inability to acknowldge any biblical truth that contradicts your lack of a biblical stance!

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit and not some type of mental acknowledgment.

No doubt...and the fruit of your coined salvation lite gospel is evident enough for all to see......especially your belief that you are sinless!

 

[Blain]

Not sure why you think it is such a bad thing to stop sinning. But please know that if you do continue in sin (So that grace may abound), and you do not repent of it and or you do plan to make excuses to never overcome your sin and be a slave to sin, then you will have to give an answer to the Lord according to His Word (Why that is so). For the Scriptures say that any man who rejects Christ's words those very words will then judge them on the last day (John 12:48). In other words, it sounds like you believe grace is a license to sin. For by saying that you will always sin sometime in the future is essentially making that statement come true.

Sin has no power over me because my eyes and heart is on God and God alone not my sin or my being sinless. I will let God be the judge of me when I stand before his throne and then we will see how the gold is when it's in the fire, My confidence and my hope my love my trust and my faith is in him and him alone not how much I do or don't sin. Being a Christian is far more than what you perceive it to be Jason, this whole not sinning agenda of yours isn't even the first layer of faith and honestly is the devils way of leading you astray.

Sin only has power over you if you allow it, does that mean we won't screw up? that we won't sin? By no means it only means that our shackles are broken and sin has lost Jesus has won, if all you think about is not sinning then you won't go very far in growing in Christ. Seek love above all else and everything else will fall into place, I notice you sometimes speak of love but do you understand what you are speaking? Sin was indeed strong and it had great power over us at one point but love was stronger and he has won the battle, I am in debt to Jesus especially now that in his eyes I am clean and pure and not a wretched sinner, I can go before fathers throne not as a trembling filthy sinner but as his beloved child as if I belonged with him before time began and it's all thanks to Jesus.

So when you and I go before his throne we will see who will stand, we will see who will be trembling and unable to even look up at him and who will be running into his arms with tears of love

 

[Jason0047]

Actually the above statement is your logically concluded farce based upon your salvation lite false gospel Jason...it is the hole you have dug yourself into and is not at all what I or others teach and believe.....and your failure to acknowledge 1st John 1:8 and the present tense proves your inability to acknowldge any biblical truth that contradicts your lack of a biblical stance!

Again, mind explaining really slowly how I am wrong? Also, you just refuted yourself by saying that 1 John 1:8 means that you will always have some kind of sin in your life. This is NOT what the passsage is saying. We know for a fact that it cannot be teaching this because 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. For this is how we know we are in him, if we keep his commandments (1 John 2:3).

 

[Jason0047]

No doubt...and the fruit of your coined salvation lite gospel is evident enough for all to see......especially your belief that you are sinless!

Again, never said I was sinless. I am saying that I do not abide in urepentant sin habitually as a way of life. I am saying that I believe that a believer can stop sinning and that someday Christ will help me to do so soon if I put forth more and more effort of those teachings within His Word into practice.

 

[Jason0047]

Sin has no power over me because my eyes and heart is on God and God alone not my sin or my being sinless. I will let God be the judge of me when I stand before his throne and then we will see how the gold is when it's in the fire, My confidence and my hope my love my trust and my faith is in him and him alone not how much I do or don't sin. Being a Christian is far more than what you perceive it to be Jason, this whole not sinning agenda of yours isn't even the first layer of faith and honestly is the devils way of leading you astray.

Sin only has power over you if you allow it, does that mean we won't screw up? that we won't sin? By no means it only means that our shackles are broken and sin has lost Jesus has won, if all you think about is not sinning then you won't go very far in growing in Christ. Seek love above all else and everything else will fall into place, I notice you sometimes speak of love but do you understand what you are speaking? Sin was indeed strong and it had great power over us at one point but love was stronger and he has won the battle, I am in debt to Jesus especially now that in his eyes I am clean and pure and not a wretched sinner, I can go before fathers throne not as a trembling filthy sinner but as his beloved child as if I belonged with him before time began and it's all thanks to Jesus.

So when you and I go before his throne we will see who will stand, we will see who will be trembling and unable to even look up at him and who will be running into his arms with tears of love

No. 1 Peter 4:1 says that they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion (control) over you. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Peter idenfities the false prophets as having eyes full of adultery who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Jesus says we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you sin if you are not led into temptation? King David says that he hid God's Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. So no. The Bible disagree with you, dear sir.

 

[dcontroversal]

Again, mind explaining really slowly how I am wrong? Also, you just refuted yourself by saying that 1 John 1:8 means that you will always have some kind of sin in your life. This is NOT what the passsage is saying. We know for a fact that it cannot be teaching this because 1 John 2:4 says he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. For this is how we know we are in him, if we keep his commandments (1 John 2:3).

Nothing more than your opinion here...I did not refute myself at all and 1st John 1:8 is clear...what you fail to understand is that your BODY is fallen and SINFUL and YOU wil always have it until the day you die and or are changed..wake up..that is the reality of sin ALWAYS being present just as Paul said..when I go to do good (present) tense I find a law that SIN is PRESENT with me..wake up Jason you are blind as a bat without echo location!

 

[phil112]

Romans 6:12-19 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."

Christ said don't sin. Paul said don't sin.

Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

Do you want God's spirit? Stop sinning.

Look up "obey" in Strongs.

It isn't about being some kind of "perfectionist", as some snidely accuse people of trying to be. It is a matter of loving God, loving His Son who died on the cross for us, enough to be obedient.
Study the bible. Study obedience. Learn to love God. That's what it's all about.