Here is Joseph Prince......

know1 · Jul 12, 2015

I have more than enough scriptural and practical proof that says otherwise.
If WOF is not biblical, then you my friend have not been saved.
It would be good, if you people, who claim to be children of God, would first understand something before you speak against it. Those who speak against WOF and NICI, speak against the kingdom of God, for that is how His kingdom works. Please read Romans 10:8-10.

ladylynn · Jul 12, 2015

JGIG said:

It is Biblically true.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (Heb. 9:22).

So for there to be further forgiveness of sins (were it needed, which it is not), there would need to be further shedding of Christ's Blood.

The Scriptures are clear that

[*=1]That's not going to happen (Heb. 7:27, Heb. 10:10), and
[*=1]To suggest that further forgiveness is needed is to subject Christ's to open shame, crucifying Him all over again (Heb. 6:6)

I really like this train of thought:

Has God dealt with the sins of the world?

Yes.

How many times did He deal with it?

Once.

Have your sins been judged?

Yes.

Where were they judged?

At the Cross.

What was the verdict?

Guilty.

What was the punishment?

Death.

Who took it?

Jesus.

How much of it?

All of it.

How much is left for you?

None.

(Quoted from Bob George, The New Covenant Explained http://bobgeorge.net/?ddownload=1833)

There is no fear of punishment because our forgiveness is complete (Heb. 7:25, 1 Jn. 4:13-19)

Confession of sin is certainly fine (and healthy) to do, but is not necessary for those in Christ to do to procure forgiveness - forgiveness is a done deal if you are in Christ - there is no more shedding of blood necessary on your behalf - what Christ accomplished WORKED.

Furthermore, there are no instructions to believers to confess sins to God, but to each other, and that not publicly, but one to another so that they can pray for you (James 5:16).

We can come to the Throne of Grace with boldness and confidence for help in our times of need BECAUSE we are forgiven and God is not holding our sins against us (2 Cor. 5:19). Contextually that's specifically in our times of weakness - sin (Heb. 4:14-16, Eph. 3:12). So while confession to God of our sins is not necessary for forgiveness, it is certainly healthy to come to His Throne of Grace and talk to Him about our struggles with sin and seek His help.

-JGIG

This is a great post! Words said or written well are a gift. Words are so important and the fact that we can communicate thoughts and ideas to one another is just a great invention on God's part. Some people have the gift of words. I've noticed some people have such a flair for the exact words to say at just the right time and place. Very much appreciated your post JGIG. Blessings!

dcontroversal · Jul 12, 2015

It all seems good...I disagree with the last statement though...the bible is clear...saved children of God can and do fail and or fall and sin.....God uses chastisment for those who refuse to straighten up and only whips CHILDREN.....Paul is clear about his struggle and John wrote clearly that one who states they do not have any sin are decieved and the truth is not in them...this is not to say that we cannot suppress sin, over come sin and or quit particuar sins...but without a doubt we ALL SIN and that is why GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS when sin is ABOUNDING in a believer's life!

popeye · Jul 12, 2015

Budman said:

2 things.

The champion hagan hater is hank hanegraaff,who you no doubt got some real "jewels" on hagin. Ole hank has had his hands full though,with his own plagiarism mess and financial shenanigans.(funny how that works)

You can say Hagin had error by emphasis,but you can not HONESTLY say he was/is unbiblical.(unless you chop huge sections from the word)

I have my own issues with hagin,as I do with most preachers. What shall we do? Continue to devour and spew trash on ALL of them????

Hard to find a man like Daniel who was without fault.

David,Elijah,Moses,Abraham,Noah,Sampson...all men of God.All did damage to God's testimony.Forever recorded Just for Hank Hannegraff

dalconn · Jul 12, 2015

Philippians 1:15-18 (NIV)[SUP]15 [/SUP]It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. [SUP]16 [/SUP]The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. [SUP]17 [/SUP]The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,

seed_time_harvest · Jul 12, 2015

Willie-T said:

don' get me wrong Joseph Prince was my favorite preacher/teacher behind Andrew Womack but I watch son life broadcasting with Jimmy Swaggert on message of the cross and they were talking about its error to say you don't have to ask for forgiveness so if you can help me by showing me with scripture why what he said is biblically true? I would be grateful.

ladylynn · Jul 12, 2015

dcontroversal said:

The Bible says that The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.... It doesn't say The Lord is my Shepherd, He breaketh my legs... (a preacher of grace said that and it stuck with me)

Also, The Good Shepherd feeds the sheep, He never beats the sheep. He leads, we follow, He is not behind us with a staff beating us and driving us, He goes 'before' us, leading.

We do fail but it is not counted against us. That is the grace He gave us in our time of need. No condemnation.

Seeing the Good Shepherd in this way makes such a difference in how wonderful it is to follow Him. An old hymn comes to mind...
He leadeth me He leadeth me by His own hand He leadeth me, His faithful follower I will be for by His hand He leadeth me. (am off a word or two., but you get the gist) Most of us know these beautiful hymns.

seed_time_harvest · Jul 12, 2015

Willie-T said:

I guess you are right about that I feel like people do that to Andrew Wommack.

ladylynn · Jul 12, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

That is so true seed-time-harvest. I really like Andrew Wommack and have some of his study books. Have some of his commentary and have used it here on the forums at times. Am reading his commentary on Romans.

A. Wommack has gotten the heretic label on these forums as well. He has been used of God to bless so many people. Am really enjoying his commentaries this week.

dcontroversal · Jul 12, 2015

popeye said:

Even Daniel CONFESSED his SINS in his prayer........some men's sins go before unto judgment and some men's sins follow...Daniel was a sinner just like every other man has been and or will be! Other than Jesus..there is not a JUST man on the planet that does good and SINS NOT!

dcontroversal · Jul 12, 2015

ladylynn said:

I agree and will add the following truth...a sheep that was prone to stray would have a leg broken and the shepherd would carry that sheep while the leg healed...the sheep would not wander after that....sometimes in Chastisment we get our legs broken and the good shepherd carries us by his own strenght and power...when we understand th reason behind the (whipping) it will yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness.....

Amazing GRACE hey?

Willie-T · Jul 13, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

What is in contention is that some people feel every time you fall short, you MUST go through a convincingly contrite presentation of asking again, and again, and again, and again for the forgiveness the Bible says Jesus died once to give us for all time. Not expressing that you are sorry, but specifically asking to be forgiven again.

I simply thank God for His forgiveness that I didn't (and still don't) deserve.

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

dcontroversal said:

I hear what you are saying and used to agree with that idea too. But now am of a different understanding.

The shepherds who break the legs of sheep were not the kind in Israel. I have heard messages on this and the author said that in Israel they do not break the legs of the sheep. And the ones who DO break the legs of the sheep were not good shepherds, they were hirelings and they used those sheep for selling and eating.

Personally, I don't believe the chastisement entails breaking our legs to teach us a bigger lesson. Even our standards as humans puts people in jail for breaking their kids legs or beating them to teach them a higher lesson. "son., let me run your legs over with the car so you will learn how important it is not to run out in the road, this will break your legs but at least it will save your life" No way, that parent would be put in jail. Even our standards in our sinfulness are more merciful than that.

I found it contradicting to put such contradiction on God saying evil is good and good is evil. That is something man does. A mentality of God that mixes good for evil and evil for good is confusion imo.
When I read about the Good Shepherd is it always how He cares for the sheep, guides and directs the sheep.. but never breaketh the sheeps legs.

Not to mention if you were a human shepherd and were to break legs of sheep out in the fields, how could the sheep function to eat and do other things without the human shepherd having to constantly carry the sheep and do all those things for that one sheep like getting food, water, bathroom, etc.... Not to mention if there was another sheep who was a wanderer., would the shepherd break more sheeps legs? and how would he carry 2?? no, breaking an animals legs means they are out of commission. Horses get shot if their leg is broken.

Besides, we have the Holy Spirit who now indwells us to convict us of righteousness..John 16:7-8,10 so we are not on our own left to wander., He does lead us., but not with beatings.

Yes, His grace is amazing amen!!

JGIG · Jul 13, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

You may not have seen the following - I think you will find it to be Biblically sound and consistent with what Joseph Prince teaches:

JGIG said:

You may also find Andrew Farley to be a helpful resource for your studies:

Andrew Farley's Series Page

-JGIG

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

JGIG said:

Hi JGIG, there is a thread started called "Repentance, daily repentance is everything" This would be a great post to post over there too. I never heard of Andrew Farley., I will look him up. Thanks!!

seed_time_harvest · Jul 13, 2015

Willie-T said:

I see some people at church every Sunday crying and moaning about something they did during that week before coming to church prayer service that we have 30 minutes before the preacher delivers the message

and when they are praying they seem to keep saying forgive me and it seems like they are doing this every Sunday and I think this is what people are talking about when they say you need to keep asking forgiveness.

let me see if I got it right.

you are saying that a person needs to ask forgiveness once for their sinful nature and then you don't need to continue asking after that?

seed_time_harvest · Jul 13, 2015

ladylynn said:

Is repentance and confession the same thing?

Budman · Jul 13, 2015

know1 said:

Okay, fine. Let's put your money where your mouth is. If WOF (name-it-and-claim-it) is actually true, then why in the world aren't you going to every hospital you can and clearing all the patients out by claiming healing for them?

Why aren't you in graveyards, raising loved ones from the dead by claiming life for them?

Why aren't you word-of-faithing food for the starving people in the world?

For that matter, why didn't Paul heal the thorn in his side by WOF? Or Timothy's stomach problems?

Daniel 3:17,18 says: "If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and He will rescue us from your hand, O King. But even if He does not, we want you to know, O King, that we will not serve yours gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

It's up to God, not you "claiming" something, that decides an outcome.

Budman · Jul 13, 2015

popeye said:

Do you actually believe only a few people like Hank Hanegraaff have a problem with the teachings of Kenneth Hagin? Just type "heretical teachings of Kenneth Hagin" into your search engine and see just how many Bible teachers, Pastors, and ministries have a bone of contention with Hagin.

ladylynn · Jul 13, 2015

Budman said:

This is an excerpt from an article; It answers some of the things you mentioned here. God has given man free will. Man didn't take it, God gave it. Jesus did not do many works or healing where there was lack of belief. But Jesus did heal all who came to Him and refused none. But not everyone came to Him because they didn't believe.

Also, Paul's thorn in the flesh; they are people who were sent by the devil to stop the work Paul was doing in the churches. (Not blindness because a verse says see how large my writing is to you..., or stomach problems because a verse says take a little wine for your stomach)

There are a other portions of scripture that talk about thorns in the flesh and they do not refer to sicknesses. It's much like we would say today that certain people are a pain in the behind. A thorn to contend with.

Article: A. Wommack
People have seen many scriptural examples of God’s judgment upon man in the Old Testament and have taken from that that judgment is God’s way of correcting us. Under the New Covenant, that is no longer the case, and a number of scriptures will kill that sacred cow.

Deuteronomy 28 lists the blessings and curses that would come upon the Israelites depending on their obedience or disobedience to God’s commands. Notice the things listed in verses 15-68: sickness, poverty, grief, and every other trouble imaginable. They are curses, not blessings, as many religious people are trying to make them out to be today.

People will say, “This cancer was really a blessing in disguise because it made me turn to the Lord for help.” No! It’s not a blessing; it’s a curse. God didn’t put that cancer on them or allow it. The fact that they turned to the Lord is good, but they shouldn’t blame God for causing that problem.

God never uses evil to correct or draw us to Him. Romans 2:4 says it’s the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. Second Timothy 3:16 says that God’s Word—not problems—is given to correct and reprove us. Afflictions are what Satan uses to steal away God’s Word (Mark 4:16-17).

“But don’t all things work together for good?” No! That’s not what God’s Word says. That’s another sacred cow. Look at Paul’s actual statement in Romans 8:28:

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

Taken in context, that verse says something totally different from what religion has taught us. The two preceding verses say,

“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

First, the Greek word for “helpeth” is a compound word that means “to take hold of opposite together, i.e. co-operate” (Strong’s Concordance). The Holy Spirit does not intercede for us automatically; we must participate, and as we do, He energizes and quickens and empowers our prayers. When He takes hold with us, things begin to work together for good.

Second, in verse 28, there are qualifications that most people ignore. The first is to love God. Did you know that not everybody loves God? Not even all who are born again truly love God. For those who do not, things don’t work together for good.

The next part says you must be called according to His purpose. What is His purpose? First John 3:8 says that the purpose of Jesus’ coming was to destroy the works of the devil. So, if you are functioning according to the purpose of Jesus, you should be out to destroy the works of the devil.

Therefore, this passage of Scripture applies to people who are not passive, but they are interceding and letting the Holy Spirit supernaturally energize and take intercession to a level where it’s not just human. That eliminates the majority of people right there. Add loving God to that and resisting and destroying the works of the devil, and you can see how that scripture has been misunderstood and misused.

God is not the one who makes our lives a mess. We have a choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

To say we don’t have a choice is another way of saying we aren’t willing to take personal responsibility for our situations. When we believe we’re not responsible, it invalidates the Word of God. The Word tells us to make a choice between life and death, so we do have a choice. God even helped us out by telling us which one to choose: He said to choose life.

The slickest deception Satan has ever put across, primarily through the church, is to get people to embrace his work as the work of God. In my estimation, this is the worst doctrine in the body of Christ. If you really believe God controls everything, why do anything? Why pray? Why study the Word? Why resist? Just eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you die, and whatever God wills will happen.

However, James 4:7 says,

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

Notice that there are things from God that we submit to and things from the devil that we resist. God does not control everything.

Religion has played into the victim mentality because it’s the easiest way to explain away failure. The church has not been effective in helping people overcome things like sickness and financial problems, so they fall into the sacred cow belief that God is allowing this for a reason.

God isn’t allowing the bad things in your life. The same power that raised Christ from the dead lives on the inside of every believer, and He is waiting on you to resist the devil and appropriate what He has already provided through Jesus.

Here is Joseph Prince......

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