The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[sparkman]

This exposes the hypocrisy of some "Torah observers"...they claim obedience to God's commandments and degrade those who don't keep the Sabbath, but freely lie when it suits their purpose.

 

[sparkman]

This is hilarious...you praise the poster of the thread, who is yourself.

Examine yourself. You claim to be a Torah observer but you practice lying and deceit to set up a new username after a ban. Yet, you cut down others who don't think the Sabbath is applicable under the New Covenant. Don't you see the irony and hypocrisy?

Did you gain two years and get married within the last week?

Very well written thread! And effective at revealing the truth. I appreciate you finding all these scriptures. It's a subject I've been struggling with a lot lately. It seems that when our savior said he came to "fulfill the law" he meant fully explaining it, not getting rid of it. That explains why he said "you know it is written not to commit adultery, but I tell you that if you even look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery". This interpretation definitely makes more sense than abolishment, because one of the commandments in the torah is not to add or subtract from God's commandments. So if Jesus actually did abolish certain commandments, that would make him a sinner! Thanks again, shalom.

 

[crossnote]

This is hilarious...you praise the poster of the thread, who is yourself.

Examine yourself. You claim to be a Torah observer but you practice lying and deceit to set up a new username after a ban. Yet, you cut down others who don't think the Sabbath is applicable under the New Covenant. Don't you see the irony and hypocrisy?

Did you gain two years and get married within the last week?

Sparkman,
I know you have been making the claim about same ID's and I have no reason to doubt you...but how did you figure that out?

 

[sparkman]

crossnote I'll send you a message telling you.

 

[sparkman]

This is hilarious. The guy praises the writer of the thread, which was himself, only under his previous banned handle.

So much for humility and honesty.

Very well written thread! And effective at revealing the truth. I appreciate you finding all these scriptures. It's a subject I've been struggling with a lot lately. It seems that when our savior said he came to "fulfill the law" he meant fully explaining it, not getting rid of it. That explains why he said "you know it is written not to commit adultery, but I tell you that if you even look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery". This interpretation definitely makes more sense than abolishment, because one of the commandments in the torah is not to add or subtract from God's commandments. So if Jesus actually did abolish certain commandments, that would make him a sinner! Thanks again, shalom.

 

[Mortis]

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

I suppose the orthodox explanation here would be: "The law is forever, but this only applied to the Israelites, or people who were under the Israelites' covenant."

I here this explanation often in my church. But I have two problems with it:

1) God said that the same laws apply to both the jews and the foreigners living among them. So it couldn't just be for the isrealites.

"'A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the LORD's Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.'"---Numbers 9:14

2) There's no scripture that suggests that God's law isn't part of the new covenant. In fact, the prophecy in Jeremiah regarding the new covenant puts it like this:

"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.-----Jeremiah 31:33


Now I wouldn't go so far as to say that torah observance is a requirement of salvation. But it worries me when people are hostile to what it says, and go so far as to vehemently attack those who do follow it. Calling people a "judaizer" or a "heretic" for reading the torah is illogical, because the messiah himself kept those commandments, and he was our example. By that logic Jesus was a judaizer too, since said that his people had to do everything the Pharisees taught during the sermon the mount.

There's no reason to dismiss the torah as a part of Christianity, and there's no reason to push it on others. We should all just agree to respect eachother regardless of what commandments we choose to follow, and leave the judging to God.

 

[sparkman]

Regarding the person who created the thread, his overall attitude has been one of accusation of spiritual inferiority. Read his threads.

By the way, he got most of his materials from 119ministries.com and did not even acknowledge his source. He was simply spoon feeding their heresies to others here.

Relating to God's moral law, it is forever. Ceremonial or ritualistic laws are not. The Sabbath, Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, triple tithing, and physical circumcision would definitely fit into that category.

One can see the relationship by the language used in Scripture concerning them. Notice that the language of shadows is used for both animal sacrifices and the Sabbath/Holy Days:

Heb 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered each year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

Col 2:16-17 Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in question of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath. These are a shadow of things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Jesus Christ observed all of the Mosaic Covenant. He was a Jew born under the Old Covenant, and part of his mission was to fulfill it perfectly.

Jewish Christians continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant even after the crucifixion. However, they were not obligated to do so. It was part of their culture.

Gentile Christians were never obligated to do any of the ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant. Acts 15 addresses this.

The person who created this thread was using heretical sources including Restored Church of God as well as 119ministries.com. Restored Church of God is an Armstrongite cult that claims to be the true church and teaches that their followers are to become literal God beings in the resurrection. It's not very hard to detect that such a person holds unorthodox doctrine.

I agree that if a person wants to keep the Sabbath and Holy Days without claiming that they are a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation, they shouldn't be judged. There are individuals like that on this site. This person was not one of them.

By the way, he practices deceit and lying by setting up new usernames using untrue information on them, including changing his age and marital status. While accusing other Christians of being disobedient due to not keeping the Sabbath, Holy Days, physical circumcision, etcetera, he violates a moral absolute such as lying. How much credibility do we give to his claims based on that?



Col 2:16-17

I suppose the orthodox explanation here would be: "The law is forever, but this only applied to the Israelites, or people who were under the Israelites' covenant."

I here this explanation often in my church. But I have two problems with it:

1) God said that the same laws apply to both the jews and the foreigners living among them. So it couldn't just be for the isrealites.

"'A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the LORD's Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.'"---Numbers 9:14

2) There's no scripture that suggests that God's law isn't part of the new covenant. In fact, the prophecy in Jeremiah regarding the new covenant puts it like this:

"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.-----Jeremiah 31:33


Now I wouldn't go so far as to say that torah observance is a requirement of salvation. But it worries me when people are hostile to what it says, and go so far as to vehemently attack those who do follow it. Calling people a "judaizer" or a "heretic" for reading the torah is illogical, because the messiah himself kept those commandments, and he was our example. By that logic Jesus was a judaizer too, since said that his people had to do everything the Pharisees taught during the sermon the mount.

There's no reason to dismiss the torah as a part of Christianity, and there's no reason to push it on others. We should all just agree to respect eachother regardless of what commandments we choose to follow, and leave the judging to God.

 

[Mortis]

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22)

Something I realized recently is the law of God is one of seven different laws mentioned in Paul's letters. He mentions the law of God, the law of Christ, the law of sin and death, the law for righteousness, etc. This may be partly why there is so much confusion about which commandments are and are not valid. It's clear that the law of God and the law of Moses are the same, because they're used interchangeably throughout the new testament. The law of God/moses was the one Paul was accused of forsaking in Acts, which he denied. I noted that many times, when Paul said we were "dead to the law" or "no longer under the law" he was referring to the law of sin and death or the law for righteousness. Hope this helps with everyones studies. To find out which law Paul is referring to in his letters, check the verses around the verse that mentions the law.

 

[sparkman]

Something I realized recently is the law of God is one of seven different laws mentioned in Paul's letters. He mentions the law of God, the law of Christ, the law of sin and death, the law for righteousness, etc. This may be partly why there is so much confusion about which commandments are and are not valid. It's clear that the law of God and the law of Moses are the same, because they're used interchangeably throughout the new testament. The law of God/moses was the one Paul was accused of forsaking in Acts, which he denied. I noted that many times, when Paul said we were "dead to the law" or "no longer under the law" he was referring to the law of sin and death or the law for righteousness. Hope this helps with everyones studies. To find out which law Paul is referring to in his letters, check the verses around the verse that mentions the law.

I suspect Eliwood is this guy.

This is a regurgitated video from 119ministries.com.


The Pauline Paradox Series - Part 4 | 119 Ministries

 

[sparkman]

Mortis is Eliwood is Gespent.

He is a "Torah observer" who keeps coming back under phony IDs and pressing 119ministries.com and Restored Church of God materials and teachings. I loosely use the phrase "Torah Observer" because he obviously doesn't mind lying.

Eliwood has set up yet another user ID Mortis to evade bans, using false information.

I highly suggest that you don't view his cultic videos from 119Ministries.

I sent an email to him about this and confronted his deceitful behavior in this regard.

Here was his reply:

Originally Posted by Mortis Abraham lied to the egyptians about Sarai being his sister. David got his wife to lie to Saul's soliders about where he was, so that he could escape from Jerusalem. One of the kings of Ephraim lied to the worshippers of Baal to lead them into a trap, and wipe them all out. David also got his adviser to trick Absalom during his rebellion.

Would you say lies could be used for good sometimes, when they're used against God's enemies?

 

[prove-all]

Would you say lies could be used for good sometimes, when they're used against God's enemies?

If you want to follow the teachings of a demon influenced female
prophetess go for it. She's [the origin] of a lot of these Sabbath teachings.

would a lie be ok , even if its againest a cult ?

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

to claim she started Sabbath worship is down right a fabracation you spread.

 

[prove-all]

Two, the theology of cults appeal to human pride and vanity.
One of their doctrines was that those who were members of WCG
would [be kings and priests] in the Millennium.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject
to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

-you state you believe we [would not [be kings and priests] in the Millennium]
and reject these clear bible verses below, and labeled them cults for saying this.

10 And hast made us unto our God [kings and priests]: and [we shall reign on the earth].

6 And hath made us [kings and priests] unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
11...and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

- a nother lie by you and blame others for believing these clear bible verses

 

[prove-all]

You're taking my remarks out of context.

Claiming that the Roman Catholic church are the ones that banned Sabbath observance is a falsehood that she was involved in teaching.

no I never claimed that, actualy it was a roman emperor who was [worshiped as a god] made law
in the roman kingdom, and again sundaylaw is inforce in the roman kingdom today, in europe now.

when rome and the cathloc gets together they are called the holy roman empire

The Catholic Encyclopedia reported:

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this tranference
of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

cathloc church takes its mark from rome, the beast of Danial and other bible places listed.


history does not lie, this union has spilled blood by the gallons, in name or religion.

unholy roman empire union

1st resurrection - Justinian in 554AD. the pope recognized him as the supreme religious leader.
2nd resurrection - Charlemagne crowned by the pope in 800AD.
3rd resurrection - Otto the Great crowned by the pope in 962AD.
4th resurrection - Charles V crowned by the pope in 1520AD.
5th resurrection - Napoleon crowned by the pope in 1805
6th resurrection - Hitler/Mussolini empowered by Pope Pius XII.

7th resurrection - forming in Europe now.

 

[sparkman]

You are the one who is the liar.

You are taking a remark out of context.

I encourage anyone to go back and look at the post to see how he is taking remarks out of context.

would a lie be ok , even if its againest a cult ?

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

to claim she started Sabbath worship is down right a fabracation you spread.

 

[sparkman]

This is nonsense.

Christians began meeting on the first day of the week during the apostolic era. They were attending synagogue on Saturdays to hear Scripture and on Sunday to discuss it from a Christian context.

When the Jews began persecuting them about AD 90, they ceased meeting in the Synagogues. They continued to meet on Sundays.

There were some scattered Jewish Christians who may have continued meeting on Saturday for some period of time, but it was not the norm by the time of Constantine.

Again, this is all Sabbatarian fairy tales using disjointed "facts" from history to support their doctrines.

no I never claimed that, actualy it was a roman emperor who was [worshiped as a god] made law
in the roman kingdom, and again sundaylaw is inforce in the roman kingdom today, in europe now.

when rome and the cathloc gets together they are called the holy roman empire

The Catholic Encyclopedia reported:

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this tranference
of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

cathloc church takes its mark from rome, the beast of Danial and other bible places listed.


history does not lie, this union has spilled blood by the gallons, in name or religion.

unholy roman empire union

1st resurrection - Justinian in 554AD. the pope recognized him as the supreme religious leader.
2nd resurrection - Charlemagne crowned by the pope in 800AD.
3rd resurrection - Otto the Great crowned by the pope in 962AD.
4th resurrection - Charles V crowned by the pope in 1520AD.
5th resurrection - Napoleon crowned by the pope in 1805
6th resurrection - Hitler/Mussolini empowered by Pope Pius XII.

7th resurrection - forming in Europe now.

 

[prove-all]

You are the one who is the liar.

You are taking a remark out of context.

I encourage anyone to go back and look at the post to see how he is taking remarks out of context.

why not do it youreself and look and post it

 

[prove-all]

This is nonsense.

Christians began meeting on the first day of the week during the apostolic era. They were attending synagogue on Saturdays to hear Scripture and on Sunday to discuss it from a Christian context.

.

Do what Paul did?

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

In each case Paul was preaching to Gentiles in Gentile cities on the Sabbath.


The Sabbath was instituted in Eden before the fall.
The Sabbath will be done in the future, and done in Heaven now.

 

[sparkman]

Paul went to the synagogues on the Sabbath to preach to Jews and Gentiles.

So what? That's where the people were. What's he going to do, stand in a wheat field and preach in the wind?

Synagogues housed copies of the Scriptures. The Scriptures were read there. Unconverted Jews and Gentiles went there to hear them read. There were Gentiles who were seeking religious knowledge too.

In addition, Paul was a Jew. Plenty of NT Jews continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant, including Paul. So, it would mean nothing if Paul did keep the Sabbath.

Why is Sabbath-breaking notably absent from any of the sin lists of the Gentiles? Why is there no instruction to the Gentiles about keeping the Sabbath if it was a requirement like you claim it is?

Again, this is all fairy tales that are perpetuated by ignorance of the Scriptures and cherry picking.

Do what Paul did?

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

In each case Paul was preaching to Gentiles in Gentile cities on the Sabbath.


The Sabbath was instituted in Eden before the fall.
The Sabbath will be done in the future, and done in Heaven now.

 

[prove-all]

Paul went to the synagogues on the Sabbath to preach to Jews and Gentiles.

So what? That's where the people were. .

Yahweh told us evil powers would change the Sabbath and Laws through the mouth of the prophet

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh,

and think to change times and Laws..."

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of
the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law..." AMP



"And here is the mind which has wisdom:

The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

And upon her head a name was written .............

 

[KennethC]

Yahweh told us evil powers would change the Sabbath and Laws through the mouth of the prophet

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh,

and think to change times and Laws..."

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of
the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law..." AMP



"And here is the mind which has wisdom:

The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits."

And upon her head a name was written .............

The verse you are using here from Daniel 7:25 is speaking of the man of sin who is to come in the tribulation period.
For he will change times and laws because he will stop the daily sacrifices that the Jews will return to doing after the temple has been rebuilt. This scripture was not be taken as those who change the Sabbath from a Saturday to a Sunday, as the bible shows a different way in which the Sabbath is now observed in the new covenant.

Also the Apostles meet on Sundays as well as the bible clearly shows, and by doing a history lesson one will find out they used Saturday's to bring in new converts, and used Sunday to worship on.......

This was not a new thing done by Constantine who allowed his soldiers to keep Sunday as a worship day for God, instead of forcing them and putting a stumbling block on them to change to Saturday.