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R
I just recently met someone who was very concerned about their salvation....They didn't know if they had it one moment or lost it the next.....According to those that believe Christians can lose salvation.....At what point do you cross the "saved/unsaved" line? Any sin against God is FALLING SHORT, even as Christians!(in your theology you would have lost eternal life countless times) You were not even BORN YET and Jesus forgave ALL your FUTURE sins! As Christians He treats us as sons:
"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" Hebrews 12:5-7
When dad punishes me for doing something bad, does that make me not his son anymore? Or does it just make be a disobedient son?
"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" Hebrews 12:5-7
When dad punishes me for doing something bad, does that make me not his son anymore? Or does it just make be a disobedient son?
Well in my mind, it is not about how much sin you do, or not do, it's about loss of faith..a complete and total apostasy, and I'm referring to the book of Hebrews here.. using the comparison between the Christian walk and the Israelites coming out of Egypt. There's two types of salvation, "saved out of" , and "saved into" - the Israelites were saved out of Egypt, symbolic of us being saved from our sins and bondage, yet the Israelites needed to be "saved into" the Promised land, to me that represents heaven. Many were saved out of Egypt but few were saved into the Promised land due to lack of faith - they lost faith in God, they wanted to go back into Egypt.
Compare with:
Joh 6:60 Then when they had heard, many of His disciples said, This is a hard saying, who can hear it?
Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.
We have to stop seeing "salvation' as a one time event, something you "have" or "don't have", like a tick all the boxes and you'll be right sort of thing. Following Christ takes a lifetime. We need to stop simply seeing and making only converts, and see and make disciples.
Compare with:
Joh 6:60 Then when they had heard, many of His disciples said, This is a hard saying, who can hear it?
Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.
We have to stop seeing "salvation' as a one time event, something you "have" or "don't have", like a tick all the boxes and you'll be right sort of thing. Following Christ takes a lifetime. We need to stop simply seeing and making only converts, and see and make disciples.
I notice that people who believe in OSAS and those who don't, are talking about the same thing, just from different points of view. A OSAS person might say , that those disciples who didn't want to walk with Christ anymore, were not true believers in the first place. And that could be right, however only Jesus not us knows those who truly believe and those who don't..
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
and yet the bible still called these who fell away "His disciples". So I think both views that "they weren't true believers" and "they were followers of Christ" are both valid.
The whole idea of "true christian " versus "false christian" can be very confusing and the difference between the two can be a very thin line.
I think just like there are non-catholics who believe in "saved by faith alone' yet don't actually live it but depend upon their works, there will be catholics in heaven who , despite believing a doctrine that they aren't saved by faith alone.. in their hearts they actually know and believe that it is not their own works which saves them but Christ.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
and yet the bible still called these who fell away "His disciples". So I think both views that "they weren't true believers" and "they were followers of Christ" are both valid.
The whole idea of "true christian " versus "false christian" can be very confusing and the difference between the two can be a very thin line.
I think just like there are non-catholics who believe in "saved by faith alone' yet don't actually live it but depend upon their works, there will be catholics in heaven who , despite believing a doctrine that they aren't saved by faith alone.. in their hearts they actually know and believe that it is not their own works which saves them but Christ.
R
It is God that saves us....We cannot save ourselves in any form other than faith in Christ. You are confusing discipleship(something that a Christian should do because it is our reasonable service to Him-Romans 12:1-2).....If you want to FOLLOW Jesus(discipleship) as a Christian, He tells us to do these things(which in a true conversion you WOULD follow Him).....I get all these "what ifs" situations....Can a TRUE converted Believer in Christ one day NOT have faith anymore?(trusting in Jesus as their Savior) I dont think so..I know many professed "Christians" who got pointed to Christ w/o the law(which is a false conversion)...A Christian can get discouraged and not follow the Lord some days.....
When i mean not following the Lord, I mean permanently, at least up until their death, not the ups and downs which every christian has.
I do recall a great time of temptation though in my life when demons tempted me to give up my faith by renouncing Christ. If I had thought I was saved no matter what, perhaps I would have succumbed to their temptation.
Mark 4 gives a good picture about the seed planted on soil. Now you might say this unfruitfulness due to a person's seed being choked by the cares of the world, does not refer to salvation but to our good works.. but at the same time I don't think the fate of an unprofitable servant, being cast away from the presence of the Lord, is much better than loss of salvation.
Maybe I am... but follow means follow, I mean disciple as in "go and make disciples of all nations".. make disciples, not converts. The evangelists plant the seeds and water it, and God makes it grow. The growth of a plant is a good analogy of discipleship. One teaching I've come across sometimes is that believers are different to disciples... do you believe that? i.e. belief is fundamentally important, but whether a person wants to be a disciples or not is optional. Don't agree with it myself, but anyway.
Is that a reference to Ray Comfort's method of evangelism? Well I got pointed to Christ without the law, and so do many others. But I know what you mean though, they haven't been "born again" to use that expression. But only God can know who is and who isn't, only God knows their heart.. to say they were or weren't a true believer can only be done with the benefit of hindsight. Many people who were Christians, would not tell you that they thought they were not true believers. Many were sincere in their faith.
The following is clearly about a christian leader a believer who does not do the right thing, and has his portion with the unbelievers..
Luk 12:45Butandifthatservantsayinhisheart,Mylorddelayethhiscoming;andshallbegintobeatthemenservantsandmaidens,andtoeatanddrink,andtobe drunken;
Luk 12:46Thelordofthatservantwillcomeinadaywhenhelooketh not forhim,andatanhourwhenheis not aware,andwillcut him in sunder,andwillappointhimhisportionwiththeunbelievers.
I do recall a great time of temptation though in my life when demons tempted me to give up my faith by renouncing Christ. If I had thought I was saved no matter what, perhaps I would have succumbed to their temptation.
Mark 4 gives a good picture about the seed planted on soil. Now you might say this unfruitfulness due to a person's seed being choked by the cares of the world, does not refer to salvation but to our good works.. but at the same time I don't think the fate of an unprofitable servant, being cast away from the presence of the Lord, is much better than loss of salvation.
Maybe I am... but follow means follow, I mean disciple as in "go and make disciples of all nations".. make disciples, not converts. The evangelists plant the seeds and water it, and God makes it grow. The growth of a plant is a good analogy of discipleship. One teaching I've come across sometimes is that believers are different to disciples... do you believe that? i.e. belief is fundamentally important, but whether a person wants to be a disciples or not is optional. Don't agree with it myself, but anyway.
Is that a reference to Ray Comfort's method of evangelism? Well I got pointed to Christ without the law, and so do many others. But I know what you mean though, they haven't been "born again" to use that expression. But only God can know who is and who isn't, only God knows their heart.. to say they were or weren't a true believer can only be done with the benefit of hindsight. Many people who were Christians, would not tell you that they thought they were not true believers. Many were sincere in their faith.
The following is clearly about a christian leader a believer who does not do the right thing, and has his portion with the unbelievers..
Luk 12:45Butandifthatservantsayinhisheart,Mylorddelayethhiscoming;andshallbegintobeatthemenservantsandmaidens,andtoeatanddrink,andtobe drunken;
Luk 12:46Thelordofthatservantwillcomeinadaywhenhelooketh not forhim,andatanhourwhenheis not aware,andwillcut him in sunder,andwillappointhimhisportionwiththeunbelievers.
R
Ray comfort teaches the idea that a prerequisite to salvation one must stop sinning....He has the right idea about needing to use the law in evangelism, but he twists the fruits with the root of one's faith.....One's desire to TURN FROM SIN literally, is a FRUIT That one did indeed put their faith in Christ(by being condemned under the law).....Ray comfort teaches repentance and faith as two completely different steps...
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
When one becomes guilty under the law and turns to Jesus Christ as Savior to be forgiven of sins, they have repented(turned their mind around on sin and towards God by believing the gospel)....Biblical repentance is towards God......Which is why I have a problem with those that teach "make a commitment to the Lord" without even mentioning their sins!
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
When one becomes guilty under the law and turns to Jesus Christ as Savior to be forgiven of sins, they have repented(turned their mind around on sin and towards God by believing the gospel)....Biblical repentance is towards God......Which is why I have a problem with those that teach "make a commitment to the Lord" without even mentioning their sins!
R
the commitment to the Lord comes as a FRUIT of one's faith! Not as a prerequisite of salvation. Many teach this backwards, asking for the fruit before the conversion.......How can a fruit bear itself w/o coming from its SOURCE-the tree? The root of fruit is the foundation to which it grows....In the Word, the foundation is Christ!
N
Nicely put Mahogany. I believe one of the biggest problems the churches face today is a total lack of discipleship. When Jesus spoke of the Great Commission, He instructed us to spread "The Gospel of The Kingdom" into all the world AND DISCIPLE. I believe Salvation, although obviously very important, is only one aspect of that which Christ has called to teach and preach.
R
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "
John 10:27-29
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
1) "hath" is a present condition. You receive everlasting life the moment you believed in the gospel
2) "kept by the power of God" means man does not have power to snatch himself away. He keeps an inheritance for you in heaven that does not corrupt!
3)"neither shall ANY man pluck them out of my hand". ANY man means ANY. You who believed are part of "any man". Your friend is part of "any". No man(not even you) can pluck yourself out of God's hand. And we already established that works after salvation are a fruit and have no saving power.
So to raise the "what if" question that someone just stops believing in the gospel after He believed does not make sense(or you are asking the wrong question)......He has the Holy spirit in us sealing us for the day of redemption(Ephesians 4:30) when we believe..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Philippians 1:6
John 10:27-29
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
1) "hath" is a present condition. You receive everlasting life the moment you believed in the gospel
2) "kept by the power of God" means man does not have power to snatch himself away. He keeps an inheritance for you in heaven that does not corrupt!
3)"neither shall ANY man pluck them out of my hand". ANY man means ANY. You who believed are part of "any man". Your friend is part of "any". No man(not even you) can pluck yourself out of God's hand. And we already established that works after salvation are a fruit and have no saving power.
So to raise the "what if" question that someone just stops believing in the gospel after He believed does not make sense(or you are asking the wrong question)......He has the Holy spirit in us sealing us for the day of redemption(Ephesians 4:30) when we believe..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Philippians 1:6
That seems like a contradiction to me, in your first paragraph you state that repentance is a fruit of belief, and yet in your third paragraph you have a problem with people that teach making a commitment without mentioning their sins. I personally think there are no hard and fast rules about it, the repentance is in the heart and God know if they truly repent or not without the need for mentioning their sins..and how many sins should they mention, every one of them or the biggest ones? or just a general "I'm a sinner" statement perhaps.
I'm confused with this verseyou quoted.. which is talking about people coming to repentance, but you say that repentance is a fruit of faith..(ie after a person has believed) so is 2 Pe 3:9 talking to believers or non believers?
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
R
Mahogony.......I dont for a second believe one is to win a CONVERT then run away and not disciple...That is not at all what I am saying. What I'm saying is that the fruits of salvation make us want to disciple, make us want to follow Christ, make us passionate Christians-not lukewarm....Im not empahsizing of discipleship being optional.....To one that SAW the grace of God because they recieved Christ because of the law, the Holy Spirit gives them a new mind....They will produce those fruits....And I do believe the Great Commission did say for us to TEACH as well as convert.....
Right roaringkitten, that all sounds pretty good to me. Although I think "You receive everlasting life the moment you believed in the gospel", strictly means , you receive the promise of everlasting life, to agree with other scriptures where it is referred to as a promise, something in the future yet to be obtained. Because if we had eternal life right now this instant, we would not be able to die the first death. I believe eternal life refers to the whole person, but we don't have our immortal bodies yet so we don't really have everlasting life. So we have hope of eternal life, and hope means hope..expectation of it..
Tit 1:2 on hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times,
Although that is a sure promise and a sure hope if it is as you say, that a believer cannot lose their faith.. so we can be confident that the believer has it now. We may as well say the believer "has eternal life" right now this very instant.
Tit 1:2 on hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times,
Although that is a sure promise and a sure hope if it is as you say, that a believer cannot lose their faith.. so we can be confident that the believer has it now. We may as well say the believer "has eternal life" right now this very instant.
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