The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[sparkman]

So, it sounds like you are teaching that observing the ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant like the Sabbath, the Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing are necessary fruits of salvation. In other words, if a person doesn't do those things, they are not saved.

This is basically the same thing as imposing them as conditions or requirements of salvation.

You are basically denying the salvation of everyone but those who do such things. Including the 21 Coptic Christians whose necks were slit by ISIS, and proclaimed their faith prior to being executed.

Originally Posted by Eliwood

Just a reminder. Nobody ever said that obedience to the law is required for salvation. Faith is. Obedience is just a result of your faith. If you say you have faith, but obedience doesn't follow your faith, your faith is useless and dead.

If Jesus Christ is your master, you will do what your master says. And he plainly said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat. I'm gonna have to start repeating this more often, since sparkman keeps making up lies about me, and trying to twist my words.

 

[Karraster]

Wow Eliwood, looks like you're getting a bit bullied here. Oh well, Messiah said His message would not be popular.

For those who claim they aren't monitoring this thread, and probably won't respond anymore....r u shurr? Here's one for ya..[h=1]Luke 6:46New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Build on the Rock[/h]46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

 

[sparkman]

That is easy.

Christians are obedient to those things commanded to them, not ancient Israel. Your assertion that the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements are applicable to Christians is rejected. They are not moral absolutes.

And I wasn't monitoring this thread for the past few days because it's a useless task to reason with Pharisees who despise others. So I am back to not monitoring it. Eliwood, if you want to discuss any point that you think I misrepresented you upon, email me here. I do not intentionally misrepresent people.

Like 18:9-14 [SUP]9 [/SUP]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[SUP][a][/SUP] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Wow Eliwood, looks like you're getting a bit bullied here. Oh well, Messiah said His message would not be popular.

For those who claim they aren't monitoring this thread, and probably won't respond anymore....r u shurr? Here's one for ya..Luke 6:46New King James Version (NKJV)

Build on the Rock

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

 

[Karraster]

That is easy.

Christians are obedient to those things commanded to them, not ancient Israel. Your assertion that the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic elements are applicable to Christians is rejected. They are not moral absolutes.

And I wasn't monitoring this thread for the past few days because it's a useless task to reason with Pharisees who despise others. So I am back to not monitoring it. Eliwood, if you want to discuss any point that you think I misrepresented you upon, email me here. I do not intentionally misrepresent people.

Like 18:9-14 [SUP]9 [/SUP]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[SUP][a][/SUP] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Simply study the miracles of Messiah and you will see He was constantly smacking down the pharisees for making up rules to negate Torah. Ya know, kinda like many denominations of christianity? come to think of it, Judaism and Christianity...nah, nevermind.

Who is doing what Messiah said? Perhaps they also hate the Nicolatians like Almighty does and you won't find them in the large organized circus.

 

[Eliwood]

Here's some words of wisdom for anyone who's decided to reject God's law:

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. (Proverbs 28:9)

 

[Eliwood]

You reject His commandments. He rejects your prayers. Fair, no?

 

[Eliwood]

Hello again Karraster. Is it lukewarm in here?

 

[Elin]

Here's some words of wisdom for anyone who's decided to reject God's law:

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. (Proverbs 28:9)

That include the law of Christ (Mt 22:40) which is God's law (1Co 9:21)?

The Mosaic regulations are not in God's new covenant (Lk 22:20) law (1Co 9:21) of Christ
(Mt 22:37-40).

 

[fredjames]

'Law of Moses' Covenant given to and made with the people of Israel at that time, to act as a 'custodian', for a moment until the 'promised one' greater than Moses 'appear'. A 'burden' is laid upon them by the will of GOD, to live in 'submission' and obedient' to them, in order for the meantime while living in bondage to carnal/flesh/self 'passions' and 'desires' and providing offering of sacrifices to their sins, they in fact scarcely only able to 'perform' and 'fulfilled' GOD's requirement in one's act of obeying HIS Ten Commandments.

No one were able to please GOD then, but only burden HIM with their sins. And so to the Israelite HE burden them with HIS Holy and Righteous Laws through Moses.

Then came JESUS the liberator of all mankind from sin and death, who lived and taught the requirements of GOD, giving us the New Covenant, to those who 'believed and have faith' in HIM and have been 'born again' by Grace and Truth, how to therefore obey the Ten Commandments of GOD through HIS word/teaching exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees, and not once again according to the 'Law of the Letter' from 'Moses', but of JESUS received through HIS word/teaching of the New Covenant/Testament conformed in faith knowledge and henceforth 'practice' and 'abide' in faith action. Therefore the Ten Commandments are being obeyed in faith knowledge and in faith action 'working out' JESUS's word/teaching, according to the given and made New Covenant/Testament with HIS 'new creation' and 'new Israel'.

The Pharisees observed the Sabbath and taught and gave others, according to 'Law of the Letter' given by Moses, but JESUS of Nazareth observed and taught and gave others in faith and faith action, according to the requirements and pleasings of GOD, rather than to the 'letter'. This is a resemblance to a 'programed robot' to 'limitations' and 'imperfection' ability and not sons and daughters of GOD.

GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[prove-all]

If you want to follow the teachings of a demon influenced female prophetess go for it. She's the origin of a lot of these Sabbath teachings.

boy are you so wrong here it is not funny.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

to claim she started Sabbath worship is down right a lie

 

[sparkman]

You're taking my remarks out of context.

Claiming that the Roman Catholic church are the ones that banned Sabbath observance is a falsehood that she was involved in teaching.

boy are you so wrong here it is not funny.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

to claim she started Sabbath worship is down right a lie

 

[sparkman]

To clarify a bit further, it's the false view of church history that Ellen G. White tried to work into her reasoning for why the Sabbath needs to be kept now, even though it is a non-moral element of the Old Covenant.

Yes, the Roman Catholic church claimed that it changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. It claims a lot of things including that Peter was the first Pope. Claiming something doesn't make it true. The Roman Catholic church didn't even exist as we know it until much later..like 450 AD or 550 AD. Until then, they were one of a number of bishoprics that descended from the apostolic church.

Christians went to synagogue on Saturday to have the Scriptures read to them, and then met on Sunday in order to discuss them from a Christian context. When the Jews essentially banned them from the synagogues about AD 90, they simply continued to meet on Sunday.

I also find it interesting that Christ appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week a number of times after the Resurrection, but there is no record of him appearing to them on the Sabbath after the Resurrection. If it was still a special day, why wouldn't he appear to them on the Sabbath? Hmmmm...perhaps he didn't want to "break the Sabbath" in order to travel from heaven to them?

 

[fredjames]

To clarify a bit further, it's the false view of church history that Ellen G. White tried to work into her reasoning for why the Sabbath needs to be kept now, even though it is a non-moral element of the Old Covenant.

Yes, the Roman Catholic church claimed that it changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. It claims a lot of things including that Peter was the first Pope. Claiming something doesn't make it true. The Roman Catholic church didn't even exist as we know it until much later..like 450 AD or 550 AD. Until then, they were one of a number of bishoprics that descended from the apostolic church.

Christians went to synagogue on Saturday to have the Scriptures read to them, and then met on Sunday in order to discuss them from a Christian context. When the Jews essentially banned them from the synagogues about AD 90, they simply continued to meet on Sunday.

I also find it interesting that Christ appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week a number of times after the Resurrection, but there is no record of him appearing to them on the Sabbath after the Resurrection. If it was still a special day, why wouldn't he appear to them on the Sabbath? Hmmmm...perhaps he didn't want to "break the Sabbath" in order to travel from heaven to them?

"After JESUS left the 'disciples' met everyday."

Please do not forget this is also written, as our 'reminder and stir up of our memory'.

 

[sparkman]

"After JESUS left the 'disciples' met everyday."

Please do not forget this is also written, as our 'reminder and stir up of our memory'.

Yes, that's the reality we will experience in the world to come as well

 

[Yahshua]

To clarify a bit further, it's the false view of church history that Ellen G. White tried to work into her reasoning for why the Sabbath needs to be kept now, even though it is a non-moral element of the Old Covenant.

Yes, the Roman Catholic church claimed that it changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. It claims a lot of things including that Peter was the first Pope. Claiming something doesn't make it true. The Roman Catholic church didn't even exist as we know it until much later..like 450 AD or 550 AD. Until then, they were one of a number of bishoprics that descended from the apostolic church.

Christians went to synagogue on Saturday to have the Scriptures read to them, and then met on Sunday in order to discuss them from a Christian context. When the Jews essentially banned them from the synagogues about AD 90, they simply continued to meet on Sunday.

I also find it interesting that Christ appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week a number of times after the Resurrection, but there is no record of him appearing to them on the Sabbath after the Resurrection. If it was still a special day, why wouldn't he appear to them on the Sabbath? Hmmmm...perhaps he didn't want to "break the Sabbath" in order to travel from heaven to them?

Smh...your derision of the Sabbath is unsettling. But you actually hint at the correct reason why Christ wasn't seen until the 1st day. The answer is found in the Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread shadow picture that prophesied Christ's work.

On the Feast of Unleavened Bread High Sabbath, the High Priest - after the grain of the first Barley offering was gathered and bread was prepared - was to eat that bread in seclusion...offering the rest of that bread on the altar to God. And as it burnt, the smoke ascended up to heaven. Nothing of that pure bread offering was to be left on earth. During this time, no one was to disturb the High Priest until the following day when he returned to the people on the Day of First fruits...the 1st of the week; Sunday.

This picture was fulfilled in Christ. Remember that when Christ finally died on the cross, the graves of the saints were opened. The barley offering to God represented these first saints. And once he resurrected to life in 3 days, so did they. His job was then to offer himself and them to God in heaven in fulfillment of the High Sabbath and leading into the the day of first fruits. They weren't in heaven until Christ raised them to life and took them there in fulfillment of this feast, as nothing dead can praise God (Isaiah 38:18; Psalm 115:17). Alive again (because of their new birth) they could now go to heaven (John 3:3).

So no, he would have never appeared to his people on that Sabbath because he still had work to do for God as High Priest in fulfillment of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. We are saved because of Christ's resurrection and work, as he is the resurrection and the life; no one comes to the father except through him. So yes, if Christ had broke that Sabbath you and I could not be saved right now. As the true High Priest of heaven he had critical work to do on that day.

This is why understanding God's Sabbaths and High Sabbaths are important, else it's like have one eye blind to the truth.

 

[fredjames]

Yes, that's the reality we will experience in the world to come as well

Please 'elaborate' what is the world to come?

As it is written already to Christians according to the New Covenant that;

"Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world ................................................................................"

What more in the world we are 'deceivingly' hoping to see?

When the 'battle' is with our own 'flesh/carnal/self', opposing the Living GOD's New Covenant in 'abiding' and 'practice'.

Don't we all know by now 'Spiritually together' our 'battle' is not against 'flesh and blood'?

Are we 'ready' to 'face' the coming 'invasion' of 'gross darkness'?

As it is written;

'Every 'foundation' will be 'tested' with 'fire'."

This is 'referring' to the church of GOD for it's 'purity', in 'submission', 'obedience' and 'loyalty' to the 'word/teaching' of 'spirit and life' of the 'New Covenant', even through HIS chosen 'Apostles', to continue after HIM, to HIS 'churches', through their 'epistles', until the 'Book of Revelation'.

Please let us 'as it is written' not compete with CHRIST of the New Covenant, but are we ready and our fruit 'ripen'?

Or are we to 'the necessity and pleasure of this world and our fruit never ripen' still, according to the Gospel of Luke?

What is our 'desires' the moment we wake up in the morning?

What is written our 'desires' should be, as 'born again', not only of 'water' but also the 'HOLY SPIRIT', of 'All inspired Scripture' and having 'faith' in CHRIST of the New Covenant/Testament?

This is not a 'challenge' of 'Spiritual knowledge faith', but are we in 'oneness' to the them, or are we trying to 'wear' each other, who is 'greater' among us and 'gain' a 'visible' reputation in this 'forum' of CHRIST in 'vain' gift 'boasting', how much we know, which has been 'given' and 'revealed' to us in 'unworthy service' to HIS 'lambs and sheep'?

GOD the FATHER bless 'all' in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST who 'reigns' forevermore as KING, LORD and God, 'answerable' to GOD the FATHER 'on behalf of us', whether we are 'ready' or 'not ready' or 'ever be ready' to what 'ugly' is 'coming', as the 'will of GOD'. Amen.

 

[fredjames]

Please let me share with you a mystery 'revealed' to me for you only 'beloved'.

JESUS said;

"Even the 'very elect' he/beast shall deceive."

Christians think they are the ones and is there any Scripture support to such 'claims'?

CHRIST will give HIS Holy Scripture word/teaching who are the 'very elect', by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT.

As it is written and through Apostle Paul in Romans 11;28 that;

"As regards the Gospel, they are enemies of GOD for your sake. But as regards 'election', they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers."

That is why the nation Israel stays on it's own until the very end, not entirely 'one' with this world in 'believe', still to GOD of Moses, but only 'economically' with this world.

Again that is why, before CHRIST's return with HIS Holy Angels for war on behalf of them, the whole world 'gather' on that 'vast field' surrounding them for the 'last stand' battle against them.

i know this is out of 'topic', but do we know who is 'amongst' us and only 'helping' written knowledge understanding to 'oneness' to 'as it is written' and 'given' and 'it is at hand'??????????????????????????

Is this a 'Bible Discussion Forum', or a 'market place', where 'robbers' and 'thief' hide or hiding, debating and competing each other who is great in the Kingdom of GOD and able to stand until the last possessing 'multiple green ranking' while pleasing others remain 'weak', as 'etching ears believers'?

 

[fredjames]

Please let me share with you a mystery 'revealed' to me for you only 'beloved'.

JESUS said;

"Even the 'very elect' he/beast shall deceive."

Christians think they are the ones and is there any Scripture support to such 'claims'?

CHRIST will give HIS Holy Scripture word/teaching who are the 'very elect', by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT.

As it is written and through Apostle Paul in Romans 11;28 that;

"As regards the Gospel, they are enemies of GOD for your sake. But as regards 'election', they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers."

That is why the nation Israel stays on it's own until the very end, not entirely 'one' with this world in 'believe', still to GOD of Moses, but only 'economically' with this world.

Again that is why, before CHRIST's return with HIS Holy Angels for war on behalf of them, the whole world 'gather' on that 'vast field' surrounding them for the 'last stand' battle against them.

i know this is out of 'topic', but do we know who is 'amongst' us and only 'helping' written knowledge understanding to 'oneness' to 'as it is written' and 'given' and 'it is at hand'??????????????????????????

Is this a 'Bible Discussion Forum', or a 'market place', where 'robbers' and 'thief' hide or hiding, debating and competing each other who is great in the Kingdom of GOD and able to stand until the last possessing 'multiple green ranking' while pleasing others remain 'weak', as 'etching ears believers'?

i only know the Holy Scripture given to 'Gentile Christians' who have been 'grafted', and not 'forgetting' those who have been 'cut off' temporarily, that;

"Make you 'election sure' ..................................................................................."

 

[-Gespent-]

Very well written thread! And effective at revealing the truth. I appreciate you finding all these scriptures. It's a subject I've been struggling with a lot lately. It seems that when our savior said he came to "fulfill the law" he meant fully explaining it, not getting rid of it. That explains why he said "you know it is written not to commit adultery, but I tell you that if you even look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery". This interpretation definitely makes more sense than abolishment, because one of the commandments in the torah is not to add or subtract from God's commandments. So if Jesus actually did abolish certain commandments, that would make him a sinner! Thanks again, shalom.

 

[sparkman]

I see someone doesn't mind lying to set up new IDs. Welcome back, Eliwood.