When does the rapture occur?
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That's what the nazis said as the smoke spewed forth from those chimneys .....
So you are saying that even though Paul identifies God (the father) as the one "bringing those who sleep in Jesus" in 1 Thes 4:14 that he really meant "Christ?" So in other words, we can transpose any part of the Trinity in any situation??? Is that what you think? Can we switch them here?
Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
So in the above passage it would be just fine to think that God the Father is crying out to His Son, Jesus? Or in the below, Jesus really knows the day and hour because He is God so thus He lied to us with this statement?
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
Or in the below Jesus does not really need to leave for the Holy Spirit to come to us? So it is fine to say that Jesus didn't really have to leave for the Helper to come to us. That was just another lie?
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
They are one God, 3 parts, known as the Trinity. Their names are never used interchangeably. If they were, you wouldn't know who does what. It would be like saying our three parts; body, soul and spirit can be swapped. It would be like saying, "Our soul dies and our body goes to heaven." I think you better rethink your position.
No, God the Father is returning in 1 Thes 4 and God Himself is bringing the Saints, just as we are told here:
Zechariah 14:5
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
So either change your rapture theory from Jesus to God or change your timing, or claim both come together (which you won't find taught anywhere) or do something, but do NOT claim 1 Thes 4 is Christ returning for a Pre-Trib Rapture when Christ isn't even said to be the one coming!!!
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popeye
Guest
[video=youtube;cweeHzg-pC0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cweeHzg-pC0[/video]
Even if you skip around,this vid has nuggets galore.
Humorous that he is preaching in a staunch postrib enviroment.
Even if you skip around,this vid has nuggets galore.
Humorous that he is preaching in a staunch postrib enviroment.
Because -- it is Christ who everyone is "going to meet" in the air...
Show me a passage that identifies Christ (and not the Father) who we are going to meet in the air please
. I see angel(s) being sent to gather when Christ returns here.[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
and here:
Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
and here"
Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness...
and here:
Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
and here:
John 11:52
and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
and here:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you...
Every passage I can find related to the Return of Christ discusses a gathering. The Greek word, "Harpazo" is not found in any of these passages. However, it is found in 1 Thes 4 where it is said that "God will bring...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (HARPAZO) together..."
Notice also the locations. We know that Jesus is standing on Mount Zion with 144K, a limited number of people.
...a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand...
We see a limited number of Saint with Christ here:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints...
and we see a select group of Saints with Christ here:
...who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
But when God returns, we see Him on the Mount of Olives with ALL SAINTS:
Zech 14:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Daniel 7 paints a scene of Christ coming to God (as you pointed out) here"
And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Paul also teaches a separation followed by a uniting into one:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power...
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Clearly God and Son are returning and they appear to not be together initially. Christ is on Zion with 144K, while God is on Mt. of Olives will ALL SAINTS. They are in two different places with two different groups of people. Who comes first? When do each come? I agree Christ for sure comes after the Tribulation and comes only once and when He comes, He stays.
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popeye
Guest
Show me a passage that identifies Christ (and not the Father) who we are going to meet in the air please
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
and here:
Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
and here"
Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness...
and here:
Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
and here:
John 11:52
and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
and here:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you...
Every passage I can find related to the Return of Christ discusses a gathering. The Greek word, "Harpazo" is not found in any of these passages. However, it is found in 1 Thes 4 where it is said that "God will bring...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (HARPAZO) together..."
Notice also the locations. We know that Jesus is standing on Mount Zion with 144K, a limited number of people.
...a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand...
We see a limited number of Saint with Christ here:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints...
and we see a select group of Saints with Christ here:
...who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
But when God returns, we see Him on the Mount of Olives with ALL SAINTS:
Zech 14:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Daniel 7 paints a scene of Christ coming to God (as you pointed out) here"
And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Paul also teaches a separation followed by a uniting into one:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power...
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Clearly God and Son are returning and they appear to not be together initially. Christ is on Zion with 144K, while God is on Mt. of Olives will ALL SAINTS. They are in two different places with two different groups of people. Who comes first? When do each come? I agree Christ for sure comes after the Tribulation and comes only once and when He comes, He stays.
This whole dissertation crumbles when the verses you omit are added.
Let us interject Jesus' diety into the picture. Jesus IS GOD.....THE FATHER IS GOD.....ooops!
Hebrews ch 1 ,alone,injures your theory beyond recovery.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
But that theme,"Jesus IS GOD", is confirmed in the resurrection
".........whom God raised from the dead"
".......destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up"
And again in the resurrected savior.
Thomas ; "....my lord and my GOD"
Show me a passage that identifies Christ (and not the Father) who we are going to meet in the air please
I just blew this concept COMPLETELY out of the water.
You are getting way,way,off my friend, to the point where I have to invoke the diety of Jesus to staraighten you out.
You need to wake up my friend. What you are doing is dangerous.
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I obliterated your argument in post #3263. Your entire post is without merit and is absolutely destroyed and thrown on the scrap heap of nonsense where it belongs
. You cannot take 1 Thes 4:14 and swap God out and insert Christ in. If you can do it there, then you can nail God the Father to the Cross and put Jesus up in heaven at the time. Come back when you have real answers to the questions I posed.
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GaryA
Guest
1 Thessalonians 4:
[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
"I would definitely call this a 'gathering'..."
caught up together
gather together
I looked up the Strong's definitions for 'caught [up]' and 'together' in this verse, and 'gather' and 'together' in Matthew 24:31. ( The word 'together' in both verses do come from the same greek word. )
I think there is more significance in the meaning of the word 'together' than the other words -- 'caught up' is simply a form of 'gathering'.
"I would definitely call this a 'gathering'..."
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flob
Guest
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.
I always read this to say God will bring the deceased (resurrected) saints with Jesus Christ.
But it sounds (equally) right to read God will bring them............with God.
Christ, the Son, and His Father are 2 in 1. So I don't see any point in trying to distinguish Father and Son in 4:14.
They're inseparable. They're One (Jn 10:30). Meaning They are in One Another (Jn 10:38). Thessalonians also shows how much They are intertwined, always together.
Paul writes the name "Father" 5 times in 1 Thess. All before 4:14. And I think 3 times in 2 Thess.
These books are also very much about the Second Coming of the Lord.
Await His [God's] Son from the heavens, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming. 1 Thess 1:9-10.
Our Lord Jesus at His coming. 2:19.
He [the Lord Jesus] may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. 3:13.
The God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5:23.
Just as in His First Coming, the Father came in His Son's coming, so too at the 2nd Coming.
No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him...He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone...Know that the Father is in Me and I am in the Father...he who has seen Me has seen the Father. Jn 1:18; 8:29; 10:38; 14:9.
to be continued...
I realize that thanks, PlainWord.
But it seemed to me that he was making a very clear suggestion -
that napalm burning the flesh of Vietnamese men, women, children and babies "smells like victory".
But I acknowledge that we have wandered miles Off Topic and that I was the cause so .....
Sounds to me like you are the one MISUNDERSTANDING THE THREAD. Both sides are only presenting their understanding, with Scriptures to support what they believe. For the Most Part, NEITHER SIDE is trying to WIN or Convert the Other.
So "When does the rapture occur?"
Perhaps: SOON and Very SOON, and maybe even NEXT on the Biblical Prophecy Calendar.
[video=youtube;lmGiu9JfbIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs[/video]
1 Thessalonians 4:
[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
"I would definitely call this a 'gathering'..."
caught up together
gather together
I looked up the Strong's definitions for 'caught [up]' and 'together' in this verse, and 'gather' and 'together' in Matthew 24:31. ( The word 'together' in both verses do come from the same greek word. )
I think there is more significance in the meaning of the word 'together' than the other words -- 'caught up' is simply a form of 'gathering'.
"I would definitely call this a 'gathering'..."
That's fine as long as it is God who is doing the bringing and not Jesus. We cannot substitute members of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit was not born of Mary and God did not die on the Cross.
[SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
NKJV [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
AMP [SUP]14 [/SUP]For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep.
ISV [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus God will bring those who have died with him.
RSV [SUP]14 [/SUP]For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Our friend wants to swamp members of the Trinity. That's my main point. Maybe he only wants to do it here but if he can do it here, then he can do it anywhere. Stephen saw both God and Jesus side-by-side as two separate members of the Trinity.
Acts 7: [SUP]55 [/SUP]But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; [SUP]56 [/SUP]and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.”
When God returns, it is the Father returning
When Jesus returns, it is the Son returning
If they are returning together, that's great but I don't find a passage which teaches they are together.
We don't get to switch them to fix our pre-trib notion, do we? Do you???
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GaryA
Guest
Look!
Do you not see them together in the depiction of the scene in Daniel 7:13???Daniel 7:
[SUP]13[/SUP] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [SUP]14[/SUP] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I believe that the phrase 'Ancient of days' refers specifically to the Father.
I believe that "they come together" at the Second Coming of Christ. If they did not, "sit at my right hand" would cease...
I believe that the 'scene' depicted in verses 13-14 above is not in [ the 3rd ] heaven; rather, it is "above the earth" at the Second Coming of Christ - which is the time that [ what is described in verse 14 ] takes place.
That is the correct way to read it as that is what it says.
Do you distinguish them here?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
or here?
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
This seems like a silly argument but it isn't if indeed the Father and Son return at different times. Clearly they are one GOD, we all believe that but they act separately at times.
The title of this Thread is "When does the Rapture Occur?" It maybe a very important clue to the timing if we identify who is coming in 1 Thes 4:14 don't you think? I have cited you several passages that show Son and Father apart relative to future events. Daniel shows them apart in Dan 7. Paul shows them apart in 1 Cor 15. Right now they are together but when Christ was on earth, they were apart. Christ was literally walking with men on earth in the flesh while the Father was in heaven. Is this not so?
Consider the meaning of Psm 110.
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
till I make your enemies your footstool.”
What does this mean to you? How does this fit into the Pre-trib doctrine? David is telling us of a command that God gives to Jesus. When Jesus arose and ascended into heaven He was to sit at the right hand of the Father. Apparently Jesus stood when Stephen was being stoned to death but Jesus did not leave His father's right hand.
If Jesus is to obey God (a safe bet) then He Jesus cannot be coming back to earth unless the Father is with Him because at a pre-trib timing, nothing has changed. The earth has not been made a footstool as in "beaten into submission." That's how I see it anyway. Please read on in Psm 110:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
Here we are, the Lord Jesus is still at the Father's right hand. They did not switch sides. Regardless of which the "HE" is (and I believe the "He" is the Son doing the executing and judging, etc), they are together when their wrath is poured out. To be continued....
They start apart and come together. Jesus was at His Father's right hand after ascending as Stephen sees them together. Daniel shows them apart but coming together. You indicate that you think they come together at the Rapture (1 Thes 4) I tend to agree. So if they are coming together at the Rapture, where were each of them just prior?Look!
Do you not see them together in the depiction of the scene in Daniel 7:13???
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flob
Guest
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.
No. I'm saying that God brings those with Him..............in Christ.
No. Because They indwell One Another, where One is, there the other Two are.
No. This emphasizes Jesus' humanity. He cried out "God," not "Father."
No, Jesus never lies or lied. But I'm missing your point. How does this relate to your silliness of God Coming back apart from Christ? God and Christ aren't separate People.
The 3 in 1 are mysterious. I understand only a little. For example, in Matthew 24:36 the Lord Jesus is also emphasizing His humanity: "The Son of Man..." in verses 30, 39, and 44. As a man especially, He only knows what the Father wants Him to know.
You know neither the Scriptures, nor the power of God. Since Jesus never lies, how can this be "another"?
This discourse was right before His betrayal and execution. Where did He go? It was not His ascension in Acts 1.
He went into death and resurrection. Do you know why He had to go away for the Comforter to come? Was the Spirit with Him when He ministered? Was He anointed with the Spirit? In any case, if you can seek to understand it: The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45.
Is it "interchangeable" for John to write that the Word was God? Or Paul to write that the Lord is the Spirit? Or for Isaiah to write that a child...a son is given to us...His name will be called...Eternal Father?
Your body, soul, and spirit; just as anything created; is but a dim picture of the Triune God. Unlike Father, Son, and Spirit; our spirit with soul can leave our body. (In fact, with the Antichrist, he becomes a composite being of one person's soul inhabiting another's body, Rev 13:18; 17:10-11. Similar to a demon inhabiting a human body.)
So no thanks. I can never rethink my position that God comes back to earth because Christ comes back to earth, 1 Thes 4:14; Zechariah 14:3-4; Acts 1:9-12.
To be continued......
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I was in the Air Force, 68-72. First assignment was a year in Turkey, and then a year and a half on Okinawa. In both of those places we had House Boys to do our laundry, clean our rooms, and polish our shoes,
Spoiled me, and then I came back to Ft. Meade, Md., and had to start doing all that stuff for myself, 
.
They start apart and come together. Jesus was at His Father's right hand after ascending as Stephen sees them together. Daniel shows them apart but coming together. You indicate that you think they come together at the Rapture (1 Thes 4) I tend to agree. So if they are coming together at the Rapture, where were each of them just prior?
That is NOT a physical separation, but symbolizes the differences in the Functions of the Personages within the SAME SINGULAR DEITY. The Father is the SHOT CALLER as inmates would put it, and the SON is the one who DOES WHAT THE FATHER WANTS DONE. The Father WILLED CREATION and the SON did the CREATING.
Isaiah 43:10-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I alone declared, saved, and proclaimed— and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and I am God.
Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.