The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)
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2 Pe 3:9-18
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
This is NOT about keeping the LAW! This is about rejecting the false teachings of the gnostics and the judaizers
The Holy Spirit within us causes us Php 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
There is no argument about the importance of obedience; where we differ is on who gets the credit for our obedience. We believe that it is God's work in us not our work for Him.
S
sparkman
Guest
Mark 7: 15There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 17And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[SUP]f[/SUP] (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Romans 14: 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
With regards to the verses in Isaiah, I interpret those as conveying the idea of disobedience to the children of Israel, who were under the Old Covenant, and those animals were not clean for them to eat. I would not view those verses as prohibiting eating pork for New Covenant Christians.
I personally don't like most animals that are deemed as unclean, but I can tell you that if I was on an island isolated and wild pigs were available, I'd eat them. You may think God wants you to starve..go ahead and starve. I would be eating a ham sandwich in the mean time
S
sparkman
Guest
By the way, concerning Sabbathkeeping, festival observance, clean and unclean meats and triple tithing (which are some of the major laws legalists try to push), you find nothing about these things in the sin lists to the Gentiles. Every other manner of sin is mentioned, but these are not. That should tell you something, namely, that these things are not moral absolutes like the other items in these sin lists.
Mark 7: 15There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 17And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[SUP]f[/SUP] (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Romans 14: 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
With regards to the verses in Isaiah, I interpret those as conveying the idea of disobedience to the children of Israel, who were under the Old Covenant, and those animals were not clean for them to eat. I would not view those verses as prohibiting eating pork for New Covenant Christians.
I personally don't like most animals that are deemed as unclean, but I can tell you that if I was on an island isolated and wild pigs were available, I'd eat them. You may think God wants you to starve..go ahead and starve. I would be eating a ham sandwich in the mean time
first I will address question # 1 Mat 5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
these 2 text give a great example of how our Savior took something perfect and magnified it and made it honorable,
Isa 42:21
It has delighted יהוה, for the sake of His righteousness, to make the Torah great and esteemed.
to address question #2 here's how the Torah can become bondage: the mistaken belief that through our own strength we can obey the Father, even in the slightest of ways... when we accepted Yahshua into our heart we became a new creature and began our journey to perfection in Him, the Pharisees of old made this same mistake and it led them to add countless "laws" that not only brought bondage but made it quite impossible to obey the true law of liberty.
the law was never temporary, it is just as immutable as the laws of gravity and such, it reflects the character and Holiness of the Almighty. what was "temporary was the penalty for its disobedience, all who will enter into and accept the new covenant also excepts our Saviors blood as a covering for their sin, and so the penalty of death that all mankind had incurred is now paid in full, by His precious blood. as a result of his righteousness imputed in us we desire to please Him by obedience to his word , ALL of it.
#3 first the text is actually
Psa 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
not 143, and the Hebrew word there rendered truth is Emets, and means truth, the rest depends on who declares it, all believers know that if Yahweh declares it, it stands and none of mans opinions alter this in any way.
# 4 the way to righteousness is to accept the Saviors righteousness and not depend on our own, it has always been the way of man to do things his own way. so as it is true that the way, has not changed, the accessability to it has, as our Savior provided a way for ALL who would choose it.
#5 there are certain mitzvoth that no longer apply, such as the Nazarite vow, the requirement for a sin sacrifice and others, as the teaching and instruction given to mankind is not abrogated it is subject to change as each covenant built upon another warrents this change, case in point is the priesthood, no longer Levitical but an eternal priesthood whom Our Savior is the great Kohen Gadol.
#6this question can easily be answered objectively: I have never heard any believer say sin is now good, and no Christian that I have ever heard has claimed this.
#7this text is referring to Judah who had departed form the covenant with the almighty, as with any prophet Isa. was turning them back (teshuvah) to the true way... this must be taken in its proper context to uphold any position.
#8it didn't, the context of that scripture is a testimony by Paul encouraging his fellow soldiers in the war against the flesh, context is very important and when anyone leaves off context to prove any stance (truth or error) it is a pretext, the truth needs no such pretext.
#9 we all absolutely should follow His ways as he taught those who followed him then.
#10there is distinct differences between statuts commands and ordanances, commands should be followed by all, statuets should be followed by whom they apply to, such as landowners , masters to servants, laws concerning leprosy and such, ordanances should be followed by priests and we have one in the heavens now not on earth. so yes all commands should be observed and obeyed.
#11 simply put not all scriptures apply to all people, some only to women some only to landowners some only to elders , and so forth.
#12 because most fail to understand that what did change was the priesthood, and all ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple service.
#13 first in all fairness most are not taught form Moses's seat they are taught from those who are far removed from the teachings of the O.T. as understood in that time.
#14 this happens because many have been taught certain things and have never been taught to rightly divide the word of truth, once a thing is accepted as truth in our minds it is very hard to unlearn it, only the Spirit can do this, and that with a willing mind, and only Yahweh knows who and when...
#15 this is a common misconception and is easily cleared up when one realizes Paul is speaking of different laws not all the same ones.
#16 every single human on this planet does not keep all His commandments however this does not mean we don't even try, and if we truly yield to His Spirit we will sin less, this does not mean we are sinless.
#17
Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
# 18 because the feast are appointed times to meet with Him, and at this time there will be no excuse everyone will understand what is required of them.
#19 that verse quoted answers the question.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
these 2 text give a great example of how our Savior took something perfect and magnified it and made it honorable,
Isa 42:21
It has delighted יהוה, for the sake of His righteousness, to make the Torah great and esteemed.
to address question #2 here's how the Torah can become bondage: the mistaken belief that through our own strength we can obey the Father, even in the slightest of ways... when we accepted Yahshua into our heart we became a new creature and began our journey to perfection in Him, the Pharisees of old made this same mistake and it led them to add countless "laws" that not only brought bondage but made it quite impossible to obey the true law of liberty.
the law was never temporary, it is just as immutable as the laws of gravity and such, it reflects the character and Holiness of the Almighty. what was "temporary was the penalty for its disobedience, all who will enter into and accept the new covenant also excepts our Saviors blood as a covering for their sin, and so the penalty of death that all mankind had incurred is now paid in full, by His precious blood. as a result of his righteousness imputed in us we desire to please Him by obedience to his word , ALL of it.
#3 first the text is actually
Psa 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
not 143, and the Hebrew word there rendered truth is Emets, and means truth, the rest depends on who declares it, all believers know that if Yahweh declares it, it stands and none of mans opinions alter this in any way.
# 4 the way to righteousness is to accept the Saviors righteousness and not depend on our own, it has always been the way of man to do things his own way. so as it is true that the way, has not changed, the accessability to it has, as our Savior provided a way for ALL who would choose it.
#5 there are certain mitzvoth that no longer apply, such as the Nazarite vow, the requirement for a sin sacrifice and others, as the teaching and instruction given to mankind is not abrogated it is subject to change as each covenant built upon another warrents this change, case in point is the priesthood, no longer Levitical but an eternal priesthood whom Our Savior is the great Kohen Gadol.
#6this question can easily be answered objectively: I have never heard any believer say sin is now good, and no Christian that I have ever heard has claimed this.
#7this text is referring to Judah who had departed form the covenant with the almighty, as with any prophet Isa. was turning them back (teshuvah) to the true way... this must be taken in its proper context to uphold any position.
#8it didn't, the context of that scripture is a testimony by Paul encouraging his fellow soldiers in the war against the flesh, context is very important and when anyone leaves off context to prove any stance (truth or error) it is a pretext, the truth needs no such pretext.
#9 we all absolutely should follow His ways as he taught those who followed him then.
#10there is distinct differences between statuts commands and ordanances, commands should be followed by all, statuets should be followed by whom they apply to, such as landowners , masters to servants, laws concerning leprosy and such, ordanances should be followed by priests and we have one in the heavens now not on earth. so yes all commands should be observed and obeyed.
#11 simply put not all scriptures apply to all people, some only to women some only to landowners some only to elders , and so forth.
#12 because most fail to understand that what did change was the priesthood, and all ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple service.
#13 first in all fairness most are not taught form Moses's seat they are taught from those who are far removed from the teachings of the O.T. as understood in that time.
#14 this happens because many have been taught certain things and have never been taught to rightly divide the word of truth, once a thing is accepted as truth in our minds it is very hard to unlearn it, only the Spirit can do this, and that with a willing mind, and only Yahweh knows who and when...
#15 this is a common misconception and is easily cleared up when one realizes Paul is speaking of different laws not all the same ones.
#16 every single human on this planet does not keep all His commandments however this does not mean we don't even try, and if we truly yield to His Spirit we will sin less, this does not mean we are sinless.
#17
Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
# 18 because the feast are appointed times to meet with Him, and at this time there will be no excuse everyone will understand what is required of them.
#19 that verse quoted answers the question.
Just a heads up. When you're misinterpreting those verses about food in paul's letters keep this in mind.
The hebrew word for food (broma) only refers to foods that are deemed clean by God. Unclean meats are never referred to as "food in scripture.
Once you realize that, those misinterpreted verses in Paul's letters become much more clear. He was refffering to "meat sacrificed to idols". There was a debate at the time about whether meat sacrificed to pagan gods could be eaten or not.
The hebrew word for food (broma) only refers to foods that are deemed clean by God. Unclean meats are never referred to as "food in scripture.
Once you realize that, those misinterpreted verses in Paul's letters become much more clear. He was refffering to "meat sacrificed to idols". There was a debate at the time about whether meat sacrificed to pagan gods could be eaten or not.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Here is what the debate should look like as it should not be grace vs. law, or old covenant vs. new covenant;
Written Mosaic ordinance laws (old covenant) vs. Gods moral laws (new covenant)
Until people are lead by the Holy Spirit in understanding the difference then they should stay out of threads discussing the law as it will be worthless and unbeneficial to them and others who are listening. All it would do is start a debate to confuse and mislead people on what still is in affect under the new covenant.
These following scriptures show how the 10 Commandments do still apply under the new covenant, and those who teach they don't are being lead in a false teaching;
First
Commandment
Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7
Second
Commandment
Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5
Third
Commandment
Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7
Fourth
Commandment
Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6
Fifth
Commandment
Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3
Sixth
Commandment
Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9
Seventh
Commandment
Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9
Eighth
Commandment
Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21
Ninth
Commandment
Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25
10th
Commandment
Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5
Romans 13:9-10 does not do away with the 10 Commandments or say we are under a set of different commands, but Apostle Paul shows that following the command to love your neighbor as yourself upholds the 10 and any other commands given by the Lord our God.
Lord Jesus shows in Matthew 22:36-40 that we are to follow the two greatest commands to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Then He shows by obeying these two hangs all the law and prophets, which Paul shows what was being said in Romans 13:9-10. That love will do no harm to others, therefore love will have the believer obey and follow all commands given by the Lord including the 10 commandments.
Written Mosaic ordinance laws (old covenant) vs. Gods moral laws (new covenant)
Until people are lead by the Holy Spirit in understanding the difference then they should stay out of threads discussing the law as it will be worthless and unbeneficial to them and others who are listening. All it would do is start a debate to confuse and mislead people on what still is in affect under the new covenant.
These following scriptures show how the 10 Commandments do still apply under the new covenant, and those who teach they don't are being lead in a false teaching;
First
Commandment
Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7
Second
Commandment
Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5
Third
Commandment
Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7
Fourth
Commandment
Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6
Fifth
Commandment
Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3
Sixth
Commandment
Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9
Seventh
Commandment
Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9
Eighth
Commandment
Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21
Ninth
Commandment
Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25
10th
Commandment
Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5
Romans 13:9-10 does not do away with the 10 Commandments or say we are under a set of different commands, but Apostle Paul shows that following the command to love your neighbor as yourself upholds the 10 and any other commands given by the Lord our God.
Lord Jesus shows in Matthew 22:36-40 that we are to follow the two greatest commands to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Then He shows by obeying these two hangs all the law and prophets, which Paul shows what was being said in Romans 13:9-10. That love will do no harm to others, therefore love will have the believer obey and follow all commands given by the Lord including the 10 commandments.
S
sparkman
Guest
Is it true that you are 22 years old? Will it be true that you are 22 years old in 5 years?
If something is true for a specific person, does that imply it is true for everyone? For instance, I am 52 years old. Does it necessarily follow that you are 52 years old?
If you are trying to use this reasoning to say that the Old Covenant still applies, that's poor reasoning.
Again, my standard reply:
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
However, there are principles which underly some of the Old Covenant that reflect moral absolutes, and Christians with the Holy Spirit can discern those. The specific applictions are not the same as with ancient Israel, but the law can provide insight to the spirit led Christian in terms of morals. In the final analysis, though, Jesus Christ is the fuller revelation of God and his holiness, not the written code that you are fixated upon.
Perhaps you learn, when or if you grow up, that being insulting does not make your arguments any stronger.
I've established my scholarship here to the point that even most who disagree with me respect it.
S
sparkman
Guest
I was a Sabbathkeeper for 10 years under Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God.
Regarding the references in Luke, those verses are either before the resurrection or shortly thereafter. Regarding the Acts reference, Paul taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath because it was a fertile mission opportunity and the Scriptures were readily available there. Notice that his teaching in those verses were associated with the synagogue.
Regarding Hebrews 4:9 the "rest" which is being spoken about is the rest of faith in Jesus Christ. It is not talking about a literal keeping of the Sabbath day.
Regarding I John 2:6, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are many things Christ did which were related to the fact that he was born under the law.
Your remarks about others not being qualified to discuss this subject are condescending. I was as firmly committed to Sabbath and festival observance as anyone else. I know that it takes away from focusing on Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in his sacrifice. That is the big problem with most Sabbathkeepers. They are fixated on the Law to the exclusion of Jesus Christ, and that is why I rejected it.
Regarding Hebrews 4:
4 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, [SUP]7 [/SUP]again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Joshua had given them rest, God[SUP][b][/SUP] would not have spoken of another day later on. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,[SUP]10 [/SUP]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Notice the reference to faith, and also the fact that it is a rest from works...the works of law and the attempt to justify one's self through them.
Matt 11: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Jesus is our real Sabbath rest, and notice it is a spiritual rest, not a physical rest like Sabbathkeepers fixate upon.
[SUP]Col 2:16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
This was addressed to the Colossians, who were a Gentile church. They were being influenced by Jews, probably Essene Jews, into thinking that they were required to observe the Sabbaths, festivals, and new moons. Paul told them no, that these things pointed to Christ, but they were a mere shadow, not the reality. They pointed to Christ as our spiritual rest.
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
The Sabbath was merely a sign, a seal of the Old Covenant. It is not a moral absolute. One proof of this is that the priests worked on the Sabbath, doing the hard work of preparing the commanded sacrifices, yet they were blameless. This is much different than any of the other laws. For instance, God wouldn't command someone to lie while saying it was wrong for other people, because lying is a moral absolute.
S
sparkman
Guest
The Old Covenant was in effect until Christ came. Galatians 3 is clear on this. Note the underlined Scriptures. And salvation is clearly about faith, not law.
Galatians 3:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[SUP][g][/SUP] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
I knew somebody would bring up the Sabbath as that was one thing I did not go into detail on.
However the Sabbath still applies under the new covenant, but the difference is how it is observed.
As we are shown by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 12:1-8 and Mark 3:1-6 a different standard on how the Sabbath is observed, and in Hebrews 4:9-10 and Colossians 2:16 we are shown also how the observance of the Sabbath has changed as our Sabbath rest is in Him.
Nowhere does the Sabbath get done away with in the new covenant, only how it is observed.
Same with the 10 commandments as they are not to be looked at as a set of ordinances to be obeyed in which if you break any one of them you are to be put to death. Instead they are to be looked at as God's moral laws that is placed in our hearts and mind to walk in as a natural everyday way of life.
The 10 Commandments are both God's moral laws and also placed as a set of written ordinances within the Mosaic laws.
The written ordinance form is what was done away with, not the moral aspect of the commandments.............
However the Sabbath still applies under the new covenant, but the difference is how it is observed.
As we are shown by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 12:1-8 and Mark 3:1-6 a different standard on how the Sabbath is observed, and in Hebrews 4:9-10 and Colossians 2:16 we are shown also how the observance of the Sabbath has changed as our Sabbath rest is in Him.
Nowhere does the Sabbath get done away with in the new covenant, only how it is observed.
Same with the 10 commandments as they are not to be looked at as a set of ordinances to be obeyed in which if you break any one of them you are to be put to death. Instead they are to be looked at as God's moral laws that is placed in our hearts and mind to walk in as a natural everyday way of life.
The 10 Commandments are both God's moral laws and also placed as a set of written ordinances within the Mosaic laws.
The written ordinance form is what was done away with, not the moral aspect of the commandments.............
I think this defines the correct way to view the law.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23
Ya! What He said.
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sparkman
Guest
Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
This verse is only referring about the Day of Atonement. Although I think similar language is used in terms of the weekly Sabbath, in calling it perpetual. However, the same language was used in regards to physical circumcision, yet we know that is a sign of the Old Covenant as well, and no longer applies to believers per Acts 15. Similar language was also used in regards to the showbread but no one is preparing showbread now. See Gen 17:13, Ex 31:16, Lev 24:8.
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
I Chron 16:14-18 is not talking about the Old Covenant. It is talking about the Abrahamic covenant, and that was established with Abraham. It applies to those who are believers too. All one needs to do is read in context to see this.
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4).
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160) How do you explain Galatians 3 then? It says the law was only in effect until Christ came (the seed or offspring). It also clearly describes a new and an old covenant. By the way, in this case it is not referring to the word towrah..it is using a different Hebrew word that can be translated as 'rules'. We know that God's rules regarding physical circumcision changed. Read Acts 15.
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8) God's word does endure forever. No issue here. The interpretation that 119ministries is placing on this verse would be something I might agree with. If they say there is no such thing as an Old and New Covenant, they're in conflict with many other verses including the ones in my standard reply. Or, if they are saying that everything that God ever uttered applies to every person, I disagree. The Old Covenant only applied to Israelites, and it doesn't even apply to them now.
I tend to stay away from Hebrews 8:8-13. The reason is that most cannot understand the concept between the Aaronic priesthood ordinances and the instructions for the layperson, even if we are all of a royal priesthood, under the New Covenant. The other thing is to clarify the difference between the physical and their spiritual meanings concerning this scripture. It will be a forever battle, seeing there are many who claim salvation but cannot grasp this concept because of a carnal mindset.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13
Then one has to carry this statement into the 1st verse of next chapter.
Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hebrew 9:1
Then go backwards to the 1st 6 verses of Hebrews 8, and put it all together, and then possibly some will see what the writer of Hebrews is actually referring to in Hebrews 8:8-13.
Hebrews 8:1-6
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]
2[/SUP]A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
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sparkman
Guest
I don't think the Sabbath reflects a moral absolute at all. Otherwise the priests would not be doing physical work on the Sabbath instead of resting like everyone else.
However, I do believe in the principle of setting time aside daily and regularly for corporate worship, and Saturday is just as good a day as any. But, if one claims observing the Seventh day is a condition or necessary proof of salvation, I have issues with that. I also have issues with the Seventh Day Adventists who claim others will be under the Mark of the Beast if they do not observe the Sabbath in the end times.
I think these general parameters define Judaizers. Does a person think that keeping the Sabbath earns, merits or continues their salvation, or that their salvation is conditional upon Sabbathkeeping, or that it is a necessary fruit of salvation? All of these would be Judaizers. Otherwise it's a non-issue. Unfortunately too many think these things and look down upon other Christians that don't agree.
However, I do believe in the principle of setting time aside daily and regularly for corporate worship, and Saturday is just as good a day as any. But, if one claims observing the Seventh day is a condition or necessary proof of salvation, I have issues with that. I also have issues with the Seventh Day Adventists who claim others will be under the Mark of the Beast if they do not observe the Sabbath in the end times.
I think these general parameters define Judaizers. Does a person think that keeping the Sabbath earns, merits or continues their salvation, or that their salvation is conditional upon Sabbathkeeping, or that it is a necessary fruit of salvation? All of these would be Judaizers. Otherwise it's a non-issue. Unfortunately too many think these things and look down upon other Christians that don't agree.
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sparkman
Guest
If one is defining "the law" as the Old Covenant, then there's an issue because the Old Covenant is definitely done away with.
ESV renders that verse this way:
I John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Law in this context cannot refer to all of the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant is done away with. Some think it refers specifically to the Ten Commandments. The idea of separating the Ten Commandments from the rest of the Old Covenant is wrong, though. The Ten Commandments were a summary of the rest of the Old Covenant, and much of the Old Covenant simply elaborated on the Ten Commandments. The law is a unified whole, and is not separated into two different components like some claim.
The law in this verse refers to the commandments which apply to the New Covenant believer. I like to call this the law of Christ and this is a biblical term (I Cor 9:20-21).
I Cor 9: 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.d To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law),e so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the lawf (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),g so as to win those not having the law.
By the way, this definition of sin being the transgression of the law is rather simplistic and ignores other teachings of the New Testament. For instance, which one of the Ten Commandments are broken if you walk past someone who is in dire need of food and clothing, and you have money in your pocket that could be used to alleviate their need? If you walk past them, wouldn't that be a sin in God's sight? Yet, that doesn't fall under any one of the Ten Commandments.
I think an additional issue is that our standard or point of reference is Jesus Christ and his holiness as we have been given in the Gospels and the Epistles, not the Old Covenant law. The Old Covenant law is a faint glimmer of God's holiness. It is sufficient to condemn an unbeliever, but it's a pretty low standard when it comes to believers. We could keep the Ten Commandments but still be pretty nasty, selfish people.
Judaizers have not changed their point of moral reference to Jesus Christ, and their point of moral reference is the Torah. That's the big issue with their theology.
Sin is actually any shortcoming that we have in meeting the standard of Jesus Christ and his holiness.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Well first and once again like I said the observance of the Sabbath day under the new covenant is different then the observance in the old covenant.
Second the moral aspect of what the priests did under the old covenant in why they were not held guilty of breaking the Sabbath was because they were doing Gods will. Those who do and take care of their own needs on the Sabbath is the ones who were guilty of breaking it, not those who were doing God's will and deeds on the Sabbath.
Lord Jesus reflected this in the previous scriptures I gave, that doing anything while serving God on the Sabbath is not breaking it. Jesus says He requires mercy not sacrifice, meaning have mercy on others and not seek out to punish them.
The other thing is that the Sabbath was not a day of worship but a day of rest, as we are to give everyday to God.
This does not mean we do not neglect the gathering together because we are not to, but which day you choose to go to church rather it be Saturday or Sunday or even any other day is not what the Sabbath was about. Man changed it to that, as the scriptures show the Apostles gathered together on multiple days, but Sunday being the main day they did.
The moral aspect of the Sabbath is resting in the Lord, as His teachings show us and lead us with the help of the Holy Spirit a better and more peaceful way to live.
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sparkman
Guest
I think you're making an accusation that others are antinomian. This isn't true. Christians are very concerned with obedience; the question is obedience to what?
Before we are saved, we have corrupt sinful natures that are selfish. We realize our sins by comparing our behavior to the standards of God's word. We realize we fall far short. That convicts us of our need for God's grace, and we place our faith in Jesus Christ as our sin offering. We then receive salvation.
When we are saved, we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This is called being born again. We receive eternal life at that time. Our nature is changed so that we want to obey God, and we are empowered to do so. We still have a remnant of the old nature called the flesh which causes us to want to disobey, but the new nature makes constant and regular progress toward rejecting its negative influence.
Paul is simply describing the pull of the flesh. He wanted to obey God, but found it difficult to do so sometimes due to the flesh. It is the same struggle any real Christian goes through. If you aren't going through it, you're likely not saved. If you are prideful and contemptuous toward others, that's a good indication you're not saved either.
Anyways, a true Christian wants to obey God, but the question is, what is the standard? The law in this case is everything that applies to that person. My summary statement in regards to this plainly states that the Old Covenant was an agreement with God and Israel, and it no longer applies anyways. However, there are a lot of apostolic instructions about proper conduct, and transgressing any of those is sin. I like to call this the law of Christ and it is a biblical phrase (I Cor 9:20-21).
The other thing that I think is important is that a person's moral reference point needs to be Jesus Christ as he is revealed in Scripture, and the apostolic writings as they were his close companions and saw his perfect example. Our moral reference point should not be the law, as it is only a faint glimmer of God's holiness. If a person is unsaved, though, the law is perfectly capable of being an adequate enough light to condemn the person of their sin and to bring them to Christ. It's a pretty low standard for a believer, though, if you're talking about the written code.
Some lawkeepers might think I'm committing blasphemy by saying that, but it's true and reflected in Scripture:
I Tim 1 8Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,[SUP]b[/SUP] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[SUP]c[/SUP] doctrine, 11in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.