Re: Jehovah's Witness deny the important doctrines of christianty and jesus
Why do you always have to try and be right Bowman?
The OP said "also jw believe that jeus died not on cross but on a stake" this is what JW's belief at present, not in the past. A clear distinction from what Jw's use to believe, that he died on a cross. Why try and argue this point?
You haven't answered the question Bowman, I specifically asked for your views, according to your understanding of Greek grammar and language what was the instrument that Jesus was hung on, was it a cross or could it of been a simple upright stake/pole?
The OP does not make this distinction....only you do.
The OP said "also jw believe that jeus died not on cross but on a stake" this is what JW's belief at present, not in the past. A clear distinction from what Jw's use to believe, that he died on a cross. Why try and argue this point?
We would ask you to properly define your terms, but then you would simply regurgitate some internet JW propaganda....and no one really wants that.
Here is where your JW polemic fails...in the very definition of the term(s) in question...
σταυρος = ‘stauros’
‘stauros’ definition:
Strong’s #G4716. In Biblical Greek, stauros only in the NT and refers to a Roman cross consisting of a straight piece of wood erected in the earth, often with a transverse beam fastened across its top and another piece nearer the bottom on which the crucified person’s feet were nailed, as was the cross on which the Lord Jesus suffered (Matt 27.32, 40, 42; Mark 15.21, 30, 32; Luke 23.26; John 19.17, 25, 31; Phil 2.8; Col 1.20, 2.14).An upright stake, especially a pointed one. A cross. An instrument of torture for serious offences.In shape we find three basic forms.The cross was a vertical, pointed stake, or it consisted of an upright with a cross beam above it, or it consisted of two intersecting beams of equal length.Crucifixion took place as follows.The condemned person carried the patibulum (cross-beam)to the place of execution – the stake was already erected.Then on the ground he was bound with outstretched arms to the beam by ropes, or else fixed to it by nails.The beam was then raised with the body and fastened to the upright post.The cross which the Romans set up to execute Jesus was like any other, consisting of an upright post with cross beam.
References:
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph H. Thayer, p. 586
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the New Testament, Warren Baker, based on the lexicons of Edward Robinson & John Parkhurst, pp. 1308 - 1309
The New Strong’s expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible (red-letter edition), James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., p. 233
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume seven, pp. 572 - 580
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] edition (BDAG), Frederick William Danker, p. 941
Even in Koranic Arabic, the Cross in which Jesus was crucified upon had a cross-beam...
يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi
86.7 He emerges from amidst the Cross and the grave.
صلب= sulbi’
‘sulbi’ definition:
Genitive case, singular masculine noun. Hard, firm, rigid, stiff, tough, strong, robust, sturdy, or hardy. A rugged, stony place: a rugged, extending place of earth or ground; a hard part of the earth or ground: a tract of rugged depressed land stretching alone between two hills: or acclivities of hills.
The backbone; i.e. the bone extending from the base of the neck to the rump bone; the bone upon which the neck is set, extending to the root of the tail (in a beast), and in a man to the coccygis: or a portion of the back: and any portion of the back containing vertebrae: and particular the lumbar portion; the loins: and the back (absolutely).Loins; spine. The middle of a page.Rank or quality, and power or strength.
In prayer means the placing the hands upon the flanks, in standing, and separating the arms from the body; a posture forbidden by the prophet because resembling that of a man when he is crucified, the arms of the man in this case being extended upon the timber.
A hard stone, the hardest of stones, and whetstones.A spear-head sharpened; or a thing polished and sharpened with whetstones: or a spear-head sharpened upon the whetstone.
To cause to be crucified. Signifies also ichor, or watery humor, mixed with blood, that flows from the dead. A cross; a certain thing pertaining to Christians, which they take as an object to which to direct the face in prayer. The figure of a cross upon a garment.A banner or standard; properly, in the form of a cross.
الصلب= ‘al’ + ‘sulbi’ =‘alssulbi’ = The Cross
It comes from the root “salaba” (sad-lam-ba), which means he crucified him; to put to death by crucification; to put to death in a certain well known manner; extract marrow from bones. To crucify. Said of a thing, (and of a man), it (and he) was, or became, hard, firm, rigid, stiff, tough, strong, robust, sturdy, or hardy.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1711 - 1713
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 318
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 85
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 109
Here is where your JW polemic fails...in the very definition of the term(s) in question...
σταυρος = ‘stauros’
‘stauros’ definition:
Strong’s #G4716. In Biblical Greek, stauros only in the NT and refers to a Roman cross consisting of a straight piece of wood erected in the earth, often with a transverse beam fastened across its top and another piece nearer the bottom on which the crucified person’s feet were nailed, as was the cross on which the Lord Jesus suffered (Matt 27.32, 40, 42; Mark 15.21, 30, 32; Luke 23.26; John 19.17, 25, 31; Phil 2.8; Col 1.20, 2.14).An upright stake, especially a pointed one. A cross. An instrument of torture for serious offences.In shape we find three basic forms.The cross was a vertical, pointed stake, or it consisted of an upright with a cross beam above it, or it consisted of two intersecting beams of equal length.Crucifixion took place as follows.The condemned person carried the patibulum (cross-beam)to the place of execution – the stake was already erected.Then on the ground he was bound with outstretched arms to the beam by ropes, or else fixed to it by nails.The beam was then raised with the body and fastened to the upright post.The cross which the Romans set up to execute Jesus was like any other, consisting of an upright post with cross beam.
References:
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph H. Thayer, p. 586
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the New Testament, Warren Baker, based on the lexicons of Edward Robinson & John Parkhurst, pp. 1308 - 1309
The New Strong’s expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible (red-letter edition), James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., p. 233
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume seven, pp. 572 - 580
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] edition (BDAG), Frederick William Danker, p. 941
Even in Koranic Arabic, the Cross in which Jesus was crucified upon had a cross-beam...
يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi
86.7 He emerges from amidst the Cross and the grave.
صلب= sulbi’
‘sulbi’ definition:
Genitive case, singular masculine noun. Hard, firm, rigid, stiff, tough, strong, robust, sturdy, or hardy. A rugged, stony place: a rugged, extending place of earth or ground; a hard part of the earth or ground: a tract of rugged depressed land stretching alone between two hills: or acclivities of hills.
The backbone; i.e. the bone extending from the base of the neck to the rump bone; the bone upon which the neck is set, extending to the root of the tail (in a beast), and in a man to the coccygis: or a portion of the back: and any portion of the back containing vertebrae: and particular the lumbar portion; the loins: and the back (absolutely).Loins; spine. The middle of a page.Rank or quality, and power or strength.
In prayer means the placing the hands upon the flanks, in standing, and separating the arms from the body; a posture forbidden by the prophet because resembling that of a man when he is crucified, the arms of the man in this case being extended upon the timber.
A hard stone, the hardest of stones, and whetstones.A spear-head sharpened; or a thing polished and sharpened with whetstones: or a spear-head sharpened upon the whetstone.
To cause to be crucified. Signifies also ichor, or watery humor, mixed with blood, that flows from the dead. A cross; a certain thing pertaining to Christians, which they take as an object to which to direct the face in prayer. The figure of a cross upon a garment.A banner or standard; properly, in the form of a cross.
الصلب= ‘al’ + ‘sulbi’ =‘alssulbi’ = The Cross
It comes from the root “salaba” (sad-lam-ba), which means he crucified him; to put to death by crucification; to put to death in a certain well known manner; extract marrow from bones. To crucify. Said of a thing, (and of a man), it (and he) was, or became, hard, firm, rigid, stiff, tough, strong, robust, sturdy, or hardy.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1711 - 1713
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 318
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 85
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 109
You haven't answered the question Bowman, I specifically asked for your views, according to your understanding of Greek grammar and language what was the instrument that Jesus was hung on, was it a cross or could it of been a simple upright stake/pole?