The Rapture Theory

[Rosinsky]

#II -The book of revelation reveals that the church is in heaven while the tribulation happens on earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 [FONT=&quot]After[/FONT] this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!”
Here we see that after the angel had shouted “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants,” holding the opening of the 7th seal to place God’s seal on the forehead of God’s people, the 144,000 Jews, on the earth, John saw a great multitude of people before the throne. Who is this crowd? Given that they are before the throne in heaven before the opening of the seventh seal, the diversity and the magnitude of the crowd, we know that this crowd is the Church. So while the tribulation is going on the earth, the church is already in heaven rejoicing with the Lord Jesus Christ. The fact, they were dressed in white robes means that they have been washed by the blood of the lamb. It is impossible for the church to be part of that elect that Matthew 24 speaks of.

#III - The Church is absolutely absent from the tribulation period. Is this a coincidence? Far from it, it is simply because it is not there.

Those who hold the post tribulation view insist that those “saints” that are found in several places during the tribulation period has to be the church. However, given the fact that the bible shows that the church is already in heaven and the fact that the tribulation period was not set for the church but for Israel, the fact that before the opening of the 7th seal 144,000 were sealed with God’s seal on earth (they were not present within the crowd as the crowd was in heaven and the 144,000 was on earth), those saints cannot be the church. They are 1) the 144,000, 2) Israelites/Jews, and 3) those who have accepted Christ during the seven years tribulation

Just to clarify, I am only referring to the scripture that I used here on post 79 in this topic. I am referring to any reference to the text in Rev 7:9-10. what I am not making any referrence to is my argument that the church is totally absent during the tribulation period and those saints that are mentioned in scriptures are Israel and those who accept Christ throughout tribulation period.

 

[Rosinsky]

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

My rebuttal of points 1-3 prove that point number 4 & 5 cannot be accurate because they are not consistent with scriptures. Beside, these claims raise questions that post-tribers have trouble answering.

1) Who is gathered first? The wicked or the righteous? Both cannot be gathered first.

2) Why do the sheeps need to be separated from the goats in Matthew 25 if they have already been separated at the second coming rapture that the post tribers believe of?

3) How can Jesus return fromt he wedding if the wedding has yet to take place? Luke 12:36 - as though you were waiting for your master to return from the wedding feast)

4) Why would Jesus promise to create a place for us in His Father's mansion and not take us there? (John 14:2-3)According to the post tribe view, Jesus comes back on earth, stays here, and then establishes the millennial kingdom.

 

[Rosinsky]

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is easy. Let's take a look at what John saw in verse 4. He saw (1) the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ... and which had not worshiped the beast...

This is clearly a reference to all those who die during the tribulation period and not before. What then? What about those who died prior to the tribulation period when do they resurrect? There had to be some other time when they actually did resurrect. Since the bible makes no reference of any other "righteous" resurrection after the first resurrection, we must conclude that these Christians must have been resurrected prior and must conclude that this resurrection happen when the "dead in Christ will rise" which is at the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I will hold on to responding to you on this. This is because I want to finish responding to Onw's points. I have already fallen behind and I need to catch up.

Please, don't worry about it, they are side issues, and I butted in to your exchange with onwings, so don't worry about it. You are doing a good job with Scriptures.
I especially liked your list of discrepancies which I had not considered before. I need to sit down and go through them one by one and study them. By the way I am a former pre-trib believer currently a post-trib believer but I'm not fixed in my views on this issue, I may be swayed either way .

 

[Rosinsky]

This post is an addition to the rebuttal of the trumpet argument I posted earlier.

The trumpet in both 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians was addressed to the church. It was connected with the raising of believers who have died. The result of this trumpet was the uniting of the raised dead with the living dead in a great meeting with the Lord in the air. This trumpet was not preceded by any sign what so ever. There is no gathering of the wicked.

Vs.

The trumpet in Matthew 24 was addressed to the Jewish believers in the great tribulation period (this is consistent with the Old Testament prophecy of Daniel and Jeremiah - it was God's judgment against Israel, the nation), there is absolutely no mention of a resurrection. There is a gathering of wicked (Matthew 13) and of believers (who were spread out all over the world). There is no meeting the Lord in the air. The result is simply the regathering of the elect. This event preceded by many signs.

If the two trumpets are the same, then how do you reconcile the discrepancies between the two?

 

[Thaddaeus]

#1 We know 1st Thess 4 is post trib because verse 15 tells us it occurs at the coming of the Lord which is a post trib event
#2 as far as 2nd Peter 3 we are raptured just before He sends the fire down just like it says in Luke 17:28-30 and 2nd Thess 1:7-9


we don't know or should i even say we can know that this is not the same event as the post trib appearance , for he doesn't return the the earth in 1 Thes, 4 but rather we go up to him Second 1 thes doesn't mention any as such as Zechariah 14:1-5Zec 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.Zec 14:2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Zec 14:3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.Zec 14:4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.Zec 14:5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.Zec 14:6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:Zec 14:7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.Zec 14:8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.Zec 14:9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
this also in rev.
clearly from scriptures these are two separate times one where we go up to Him the other where He touches down on the mount of olives. one where we go to be with Him , the other where He comes and establishes His kingdom on earth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

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After carefully examining these discrepancies, you will see that there has to be two events at two very distinct time. Anything other than that would be total contradiction.​

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Well I've gone through most of the scriptures myself personally to see if that's true.. I must say most of the comparisons don't draw any distinction between a one time rapture + judgement event, or two separate events ( pre trib rapture and judgement later), there is nothing in the text to say. Highlighting trivial differences and concluding that they must be two different events is only conjecture. Many of the verses are claimed to say things which they aren't even saying, for example.. 1 Th 4:13-19 does not mention unbelievers....yet it is claimed unbelievers are left behind. They may not be, they are probably whisked away by angels to judgement. It doesn't say, because in context it is talking what happens to the believer, not unbeliever. So we cannot assume anything out of that. ​

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Remember many of the verses can be explained by considering whose point of view it is talking about... the believer, who is resurrected and meets Christ in the air, or the unbeliever, who will be whisked away by an angel to judgement. Having two different points of view, does not mean they must be two distinct and separate events. They could both happen on the one same day. ​

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It can be seen that many of the scriptures you suppose to be contradicting one another and therefore show a pre-trib rapture.... do not contradict at all if the events happen on the same day. ​

There are common themes between each of them, the trumpets, the clouds..which indicate they are talking about the one same event. ​

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The rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye; so sudden that it's too fast for the eye 1 Cor 15:52
The second coming comes slowly and people will see Him come back. Zechariah 12:10 Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7

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These are speaking about the same one event because the trumpet is the common theme in both. Note, Cor 15:52, mentions the trumpet sounding, so does Matt 24:31. Same trumpet, same event. ​

Jesus remained in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Jesus' feet touches the earth Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 19:11-21
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This does not rule out the possibility of Jesus going to the earth after the believers meet him in the air. Just because believers meet Christ in the air doesn't mean Christ will not touch down on earth. There is a common theme between the rapture and Jesus's second coming.. that Jesus is seen in the clouds... ​

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Note the correlation between seeing Jesus in the clouds:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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Also note, that clouds are mentioned here, where Jesus is saying an unbeliever will see him come in the clouds..​

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

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Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

They all talk about clouds, so they must all be the one same event. The rapture and Christ's coming happens at the same time.

Further proof.. the theme of the trumpet is also seen in this verse which is supposed to be about the pre-trib rapture:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That is the same trump mentioned in Matt 24:31, Cor 15:52.. they are the same event.

 

[MahogonySnail]

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Christians goes up first and unbelievers are left behind. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ​

Wicked are taken first, the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left behind. Matthew 13:28-30​

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Firstly, note that 1 Thess 4:13-18 doesn't mention believers at all. We can't assume they are left behind from these verses.
Secondly, note that Matt 13:28-30 doesn't actually say the saints will be left behind.. it says they will be gathered into Christ's barn.. which I assume to mean be raptured.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

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The rapture's purpose is to present the Church to Himself and to the Father 2 Corinthians 11:2, Revelation. 19:6-9
The purpose of the second coming is to execute judgment on the wicked and establish His Kingdom Jude 14-15,Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4
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There's no indication in those scriptures that these must be separate events, they could all happen in the one event. The purpose of the second coming is both to receive the Church to Christ and the Father, and to punish the wicked. It could all happen at the same time. ​

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Jesus will come FOR His Church. John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Jesus coming WITH His Church Col 3:4, Zechariah 14:5, Jude 14, Revelation 19:14

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Rather than being two separate and distrinct events as you suppose, this could also occur on the same day. There's no indication in any of the verses that it all cannot happen in the one event. The way I see it, Christ comes down from heaven with the Church (ie those who have already died, their souls) at the same time as their bodies are raised up on the earth... then their spirit re-enters their resurrected glorified bodies somewhere there. ​

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Only Christians will see Him 1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52
Every eye will see Him Revelation 1:7​

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1 John 3:2 makes no mention of his appearance being only to the christians, neither does 1 Cor 15:52. That is an assumption being read into the text. ​

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Now the dead being raised up will certainly be visible to the rest of the world, it would be such a great event difficult not to notice. In fact both believers and unbelievers are raised up, believers to life and unbelievers to judgement. Then the unbelievers will have to face the "second death". ​

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In any case , there can be no such thing as a secret rapture. I thought a visible rapture seen by the world is necessary for the pre-trib belief to work...that those left behind will realise it is the rapture.. and somehow rush to become christians and form this "left behind church". Frankly I think that's the work of fiction myself or wishful thinking rather than reality. ​

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Jesus comes with a shout(for resurrection) 1 Thessalonians 4:16
No shout mentioned Rev. 19:11-21
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Rev 19:11-21 isn't even talking about the same thing, it's talking about the great last day battle. But in any case, I'm sure there will be lots of shouting when Jesus fights against his enemies, even though it doesn't say Jesus shouted. ​

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Jesus does not return on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
Jesus returns on a white horse Revelation 19:11
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The white horse is symbolic, it represents conquest and triumph. Or do you suppose that a real literal sword comes out of Jesus's mouth as well? ​

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Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword...

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[onwingsaseagles]

Okay, that makes sense to me. But you did acknowledge the other day that you believe Revelation 3:10 means we'll be kept safe during the tribulation. So how are we kept safe and still killed? Are we protected for just part of the tribulation?

Check out the last verse in Revelation 12:17 there is a remnant that do not go into their place of protection, therefore they have left themselves outside of God's divine protection and vulnerable to the attacks of man and satan.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

Those scriptures do not, and I repeat, do not say that the resurrection of the just (according to you) is at the second coming. I have already outlined to you the differences between 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24 that makes it impossible for that to be true. You've retained that these two events (the rapture and the second coming) will happen immediately after each other. Given the huge amount of discrepancies between the two, this again is impossible.

You obviously have a problem understanding the meaning of word. Both of these verse could not be more clear that they occur at the coming of Christ, yet you deny this. WHY? because then you would have to deny your precious doctrine.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is one of the most ridiculous argument against the the rapture. Like I have said before, throughout the bible, we have seen trumpets used for various purposes. Mainly for the beginning and the end of something.

Furthermore, we need to look into the Jewish culture. Please do some research on the Jewish feast called "the feast of trumpets" and the words "tekiah gedolah" which means "the last trump." This feast is a Jewish practice where the partakers of blow a series of short trumpet blast lasting about 3 seconds in lengths (some argue that they had different lengths but that's not relevant at this time), except for the last one. The last trumpet blow, which is the longest one of all, is called "the last trump." Judaism connected this "last trump" with the ressurection of the dead, and so does Paul.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that connects 1st Corinthians 15 to Matthew 24. The only relationship that they do have is that they are trumpets and they made sounds.

Answer this one question for me (and it is an easy on e, any child could answer)
How many trumpets will be sounded after the Last trump?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

My rebuttal of points 1-3 prove that point number 4 & 5 cannot be accurate because they are not consistent with scriptures. Beside, these claims raise questions that post-tribers have trouble answering.

1) Who is gathered first? The wicked or the righteous? Both cannot be gathered first.

2) Why do the sheeps need to be separated from the goats in Matthew 25 if they have already been separated at the second coming rapture that the post tribers believe of?

3) How can Jesus return fromt he wedding if the wedding has yet to take place? Luke 12:36 - as though you were waiting for your master to return from the wedding feast)

4) Why would Jesus promise to create a place for us in His Father's mansion and not take us there? (John 14:2-3)According to the post tribe view, Jesus comes back on earth, stays here, and then establishes the millennial kingdom.

Answer to question 1) The wicked are not removed at all they are destroyed by fire.
Answer to Question 2) We will be separate when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, and we go into New Jerusalem.
Answer to question 3) Where does it say Jesus return from a wedding at the 2nd coming.
Answer to question 4) The place is New Jerusalem and our mansion is our heavenly body.


There is no getting around that the scripture posted by myself prove that the righteous will not be raptured until the post trib 2nd coming when Jesus is returning to destroy this world on the last day not 7 yrs earlier.

 

[MahogonySnail]

we don't know or should i even say we can know that this is not the same event as the post trib appearance , for he doesn't return the the earth in 1 Thes, 4 but rather we go up to him

Just because we go up to him, does not mean he doesn't return to the earth later on the same day or otherwise. 1 Thess 4 does not rule out that possibility by stating that Jesus remains in heaven.

Remember the unbelievers see Christ come in the clouds (Mark 14:62), and this can only be the same clouds in which the believers go up into in 1 Thess 4, "in the clouds". It's possible that Christ remains in the clouds, whilst He sends His angels to gather the elect on the earth (Mar 13:26-27), and also pulls out the tares at the same time (Mat 13:30). I think any gathering of the elect is the harvest time. Not a prior pre-trib rapture event.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

This is easy. Let's take a look at what John saw in verse 4. He saw (1) the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ... and which had not worshiped the beast...

This is clearly a reference to all those who die during the tribulation period and not before. What then? What about those who died prior to the tribulation period when do they resurrect? There had to be some other time when they actually did resurrect. Since the bible makes no reference of any other "righteous" resurrection after the first resurrection, we must conclude that these Christians must have been resurrected prior and must conclude that this resurrection happen when the "dead in Christ will rise" which is at the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation.

All the just of all ages will be resurrected at the 1st resurrection which is not until after the tribulation is over. There will be no resurrection and or rapture before this plain and simple, my child can understand the simplisity of these scriptures, yet bible scholars cant. I guess that is what happens when you try to understand scripture with your own mind instead of God's

 

[onwingsaseagles]

#1 We know 1st Thess 4 is post trib because verse 15 tells us it occurs at the coming of the Lord which is a post trib event
#2 as far as 2nd Peter 3 we are raptured just before He sends the fire down just like it says in Luke 17:28-30 and 2nd Thess 1:7-9


we don't know or should i even say we can know that this is not the same event as the post trib appearance , for he doesn't return the the earth in 1 Thes, 4 but rather we go up to him Second .

And then what happen when we meet Him in the air?

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think the pre-trib belief is that the raptured church has a big party in heaven until the time for Christ's return and judgement, whilst the left behind church suffers on the earth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Basically, the pre-trib belief is supported by scripture only when you pull verses from all over the place and string them together, like one from Thessalonians, and another from Revelations, for example.
If you read Revelations from start to finish in isolation from other scriptures , would you conclude there is a rapture? I don't think so. Similarly for Thessalonians, Matthew, etc. Eventually you get the idea that they are all talking about the one end-time event, post-trib rapture/judgement day. "The Day of the Lord".

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Basically, the pre-trib belief is supported by scripture only when you pull verses from all over the place and string them together, like one from Thessalonians, and another from Revelations, for example.
If you read Revelations from start to finish in isolation from other scriptures , would you conclude there is a rapture? I don't think so. Similarly for Thessalonians, Matthew, etc. Eventually you get the idea that they are all talking about the one end-time event, post-trib rapture/judgement day. "The Day of the Lord".

No even if you do that scripture does not support the pretrib rapture, the only way you can force scripture to mesh with the false doctrine of the pretrib rapture is if you change the words of scripture around to mean things they do not.

Example
Wrath = tribulation
kept from= rapture out of

They also have to make other words not mean what they do mean.
Example
Coming of the Lord= not the actual coming of the Lord
Last trump= frist trump
1sr resurrection= one of many resurrections.

you see they have to change words around to mean what they do not.

 

[Rosinsky]

You obviously have a problem understanding the meaning of word. Both of these verse could not be more clear that they occur at the coming of Christ, yet you deny this. WHY? because then you would have to deny your precious doctrine.

Statements like this make no contributions to a discussion. Read how MahogonySnail presents his disagreements and argue his point without personal attacks you will definitely learn something. It's very difficult to argue with you, not because you are right but because you do not know how to conduct yourself properly. This is my second warning to you, if you continue as such, I will simply ignore you. Now that there is someone else who is posting on this topic, I will simply focus on him and ignore all posts made by you. This is your second and last warning.

 

[Rosinsky]

Both of these verse could not be more clear that they occur at the coming of Christ, yet you deny this.

I totally agree that these two verse are very clear that they are at the coming of Christ. The only difference between you and I is exactly when at the coming of Christ? It is at the rapture of the church which precedes the tribulation period.