When does the rapture occur?

[RickyZ]

In response to those who claim to be preparing, I respect the courage and strength it must take to do so. Personally I believe that I won't be able to to prepare enough food in time. God has called me to help guide people through the chaos of the sixth seal opening: the eruption of yellowstone. The country will be made uninhabitable. We will have to leave or live in a wasteland with no sun or clean water. Just saying, be ready to leave.

Well, ok, that's preparing. As much as stockpiling or building an ark. The point is that you recognize God's warnings, and His call to action, and are taking action as He is leading you. And when Yellowstone explodes you'll be ready, as opposed to the many who thought they weren't going to be around to see it and have no plan B. We'll see how many go Matthew 24:10 on us then. I know it won't be you, because you recognize and prepared for it.

Funny thing about that stored food and supplies... God's led me to believe I may walk away from it... it could be all for someone else He'll bring along at a later date.

It's curious you single out Yellowstone, honestly I expect not just it to blow but for these things to blow all around the globe. I presume Yellowstone is within your sphere of influence, and you know how God likes to use us where we are... sometimes. God's moving to use us in southwest Minnesota... how's that plume predicted to affect us?

 

[VCO]

No, this is your twisting of the Word to fit your view. There are no parts or phases of the resurrection. Paul's teaching is consistent with all teaching on the resurrection. There is Christ (and his sacrifice puts to "death" all confessed sins) then there are those of us who are Christ's at His Coming. Paul only mentions one coming, not two. Christ is the "firstfruits" of those who sleep.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: {That is phases.} Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...

The order is clear: Christ, then those who are Christ's at His Coming. Then comes then end. It doesn't say, "then comes the Tribulation, then another return of Christ with a resurrection of those beheaded in a Part B resurrection."

No, this is your twisting of the Word to fit your view.

STALEMATE!

 

[VCO]

I totally agree with you on this entire post!! Christians have to be here to be slaughtered. There is no concept of a great revival during the Tribulation. Instead, we have a falling away taught. Doesn't that bother you??

The Great Falling Away has already begun. Haven't you noticed the INCREASE in people who claim to be Christians but deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, Deny the Bible was all inspired by GOD, Deny the Doctrine of the Trinity, Deny relevancy of Scripture to this day and age, Deny HE CREATED everything visible and invisible, Deny we are submit to HIM as LORD meaning MASTER, etc., etc.

 

[VCO]

What I see as the problem in the pre-trib camp is a lack of preparedness. God warned Noah about the time he was facing and gave Noah a way to prepare for and survive it. God gave us warning about the time to come, yet those who don't believe it are not going to prepare for it... bringing their survival into question. These people are going to be the seed among the rocks, who will turn away a la Matthew 24:10 when they find themselves subjected to things they didn't believe they'd see. That is the greatest tragedy of the pre-trib camp, and quite possibly exactly what satan had in mind when he spread that particular lie.

Then you have a FALSE idea about Pre-Trib beliefs, those who are NOT prepared do NOT get called out to go to the Wedding of the LAMB. EVERY JEWISH BRIDE HAD TO PREPARE HERSELF FOR HER BRIDEGROOM AND KEEP READY.

And don't tell my you are wasting time and money building a DOOMSDAY BUNKER.

 

[RickyZ]

If I may butt in for a second, that's the thing. God's word is eternal, prophecy is God's word, and it doesn't go moot once seemingly fulfilled. The tribulation started the day Jesus died. Over the ages it has resonated and echoed in ever increasing forms. It will crescendo in the end in a form so severe it will wipe us out. God's not saying tribulation will only happen in the end, He's just saying beware the last 7 years of it cause they're going to be particularly nasty. So yes, it all began a long time ago, but watch out for the increase. Including among those who deny all this.

 

[RickyZ]

Then you have a FALSE idea about Pre-Trib beliefs, those who are NOT prepared do NOT get called out to go to the Wedding of the LAMB. EVERY JEWISH BRIDE HAD TO PREPARE HERSELF FOR HER BRIDEGROOM AND KEEP READY.

And don't tell my you are wasting time and money building a DOOMSDAY BUNKER.

No, actually don't have to build one. The house God has led us to has one built in

So where are we at odds here... Agreed, those who are not prepared are not called out to the wedding of the Lamb. And yes a Jewish bride did have to make herself ready. (Did you know that the bride does not attend the wedding feast?). I'm preaching preparedness and you're preaching preparedness, so where's the rub?

Maybe I should add that there are an equal number of post (I'm actually mid)-trib believers who aren't preparing either. Probably shouldn't have singled the pre-tribbers out on that one. Actually what's worse - not preparing because you didn't hear the warning, or hearing the warning and not acting anyway?

 

[valiant]

YES, in 70th Week of Daniel, AFTER the Church-age; also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, Jer. 30:7-11.

It is incredible to us in the UK that you can be so blind as not to realise that Christ was concerned for the whole age not just a small period at the end of the age. He was especially concerned to get over the fact that the Temple would be destroyed in 70 AD and that from then on the Jews would endure great tribulation because they had rejected their Messiah.

The Temple was destroyed in the midst of the seventieth seven after God had renewed His covenant with believers, and from then on desolations were determined. Same message,

 

[Jak795]

Who knows, the world ends when God is ready to cast judgment.

 

[valiant]

Well, ok, that's preparing. As much as stockpiling or building an ark. The point is that you recognize God's warnings, and His call to action, and are taking action as He is leading you. And when Yellowstone explodes you'll be ready, as opposed to the many who thought they weren't going to be around to see it and have no plan B. We'll see how many go Matthew 24:10 on us then. I know it won't be you, because you recognize and prepared for it.

Funny thing about that stored food and supplies... God's led me to believe I may walk away from it... it could be all for someone else He'll bring along at a later date.

It's curious you single out Yellowstone, honestly I expect not just it to blow but for these things to blow all around the globe. I presume Yellowstone is within your sphere of influence, and you know how God likes to use us where we are... sometimes. God's moving to use us in southwest Minnesota... how's that plume predicted to affect us?

Come over to the UK and be safe. We don't believe in the great tribulation LOL

 

[PlainWord]

There are Many tribulations that mankind must face especially in the end times, but there is one GREATER that all the rest prior to it. The End Times period involves much more that the Seven Years of Antichrist's reign, and I believe the Great Tribulation is the entire 7 years, while many believe it is only the last half of those 7 years, when Antichrist takes over the Temple, demanding to be worshiped. Either way the wars and rumors of wars that lead up to all this, are also tribulation, but not the Great Tribulation.

As for the "Look, He is in the inner rooms!", that is what the JWs claim. They believe He vaporized his body and returned already spiritually, indwelling the inner rooms of the Watchtower Publishing house.

I have no issues with your response other than it did not address any of my key points. I agree there are events which lead up to the GT called, "Beginnings of Sorrows." Further, I think we may be in that period now. As for the length of the GT, we have nothing to give us a definitive time period. As for what the JWs think about the "inner room" comment, who cares? There is no scriptural support for a vaporized Christ who returned in the spirit. The Bible makes clear that the Holy Spirit was to come and that Christ would need to leave for that to happen.

I would like you to respond to these below key points. If you disagree with any of them, please provide scriptural support and I mean passages which clearly refute the below (THANKS):

1. The Great Tribulation is 100% driven by Satan.
2. God's People are slaughtered in droves by the wicked during the GT.
3. God shortens Satan's Trib specifically to save the ELECT from being completely wiped out.
4. God's Wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation and is in response to it.
5. Most of Revelation deals with God's Wrath and not the GT.
6. All of the Bowls and at least some of the Trumpets are not part of the GT, but rather part of God's Wrath.
7. God's Wrath is associated with Christ being revealed (with His angels) from heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

If you think about it, a LOT of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib believers must think they do not even have to get ready, until the Antichrist signs the Seven Year Peace Treaty, Live on the International NEWS. Where we Pre-Trib believers have to KEEP READY ALL THE TIME.

Matthew 25:13 (ISV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]"So keep on watching, because you don't know the day or the hour."

As a Post Tribber and former Pre-Tribber, I can tell you there is no difference in my mental preparedness as it does not matter when Christ returns relative to the spiritual condition each Christian is to maintain. The reason is obvious. We do not know if we will awaken in the morning or make it home alive each evening. All of our days are numbered thus we need to always be prepared in our hearts and in our walk. The Return of Christ may not happen in our lifetimes so it is pointless and foolhardy to depend upon an imminent return of Christ or the Appearance of the Man of Sin as a condition to walking a Christian life.


____________________________

To Silverfanng, I think you have a very dramatic view of the Great Tribulation. Yellowstone is not going to explode and you aren't going to need to stockpile food to make it through the GT especially if you do not live in the "SEA" or "EARTH" areas of the Middle East. Almost all of the "bad stuff" that is going to happen during the GT happens in the Muslim World. The Man of Sin (who many call AntiChrist) does not take over the entire world, he takes over the Muslim world and almost wipes out Israel before God puts a stop to it.

There is no scriptural support for a global conquest of the MoS or A/C. The OT passages which discuss his conquests limit them to the North and South of Israel and in that region. Rev 13:2 provides the same geographic region as Dan 7 which are the modern countries of Iran, Iraq, Syria and perhaps Turkey making up the territories of the King of the North whereas Jer 50 names Saudi Arabia and Egypt as the main forces of the Kings of the South. Again, there is nothing in the related OT prophesies to indicate a global conflict. Certainly a third world war is possible, it just isn't foretold conclusively.

It's all about Israel and her Muslim enemies. The Muslims will kill themselves until a leader unites them, then trouble for Israel will begin in earnest. Certainly we may see an economic collapse in America and if that happens, it will likely throw the world into financial chaos. I certainly see that as a possibility and I also see tremendous civil unrest happening as governments can no longer support the welfare states they've created. We should all prepare for that and a collapsing dollar and massive cyber attacks, etc. But, I am not expecting some AntiChrist to force me to bow down to him nor do I expect anyone to force me to take some biochip or other "mark" to the "beast." That is not going to happen over here.

As for massive upheavals of the earth itself - wait until Christ is ready to return, then you will see some of that, a polar shift perhaps with the biggest earthquake the world has ever seen.

 

[Dayo]

I have no issues with your response other than it did not address any of my key points. I agree there are events which lead up to the GT called, "Beginnings of Sorrows." Further, I think we may be in that period now. As for the length of the GT, we have nothing to give us a definitive time period. As for what the JWs think about the "inner room" comment, who cares? There is no scriptural support for a vaporized Christ who returned in the spirit. The Bible makes clear that the Holy Spirit was to come and that Christ would need to leave for that to happen. I would like you to respond to these below key points. If you disagree with any of them, please provide scriptural support and I mean passages which clearly refute the below (THANKS):

1. The Great Tribulation is 100% driven by Satan.
2. God's People are slaughtered in droves by the wicked during the GT.
3. God shortens Satan's Trib specifically to save the ELECT from being completely wiped out.
4. God's Wrath comes AFTER the Great Tribulation and is in response to it.
5. Most of Revelation deals with God's Wrath and not the GT.
6. All of the Bowls and at least some of the Trumpets are not part of the GT, but rather part of God's Wrath.
7. God's Wrath is associated with Christ being revealed (with His angels) from heaven.

[h=1]Matthew 24 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Destruction of the Temple Predicted[/h]24 As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them,“Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!”
[h=3]Signs of the End of the Age[/h]3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet.7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines[a] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains.
[h=3]Persecutions Predicted[/h]9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution,[b] and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.[c]14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world[d] as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come.
[h=3]The Great Tribulation[/h]15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation,[e][f] spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand[g]),16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop[h] must not come down to get things out of his house. 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[i] survive.[j]But those days will be limited because of the elect.
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! 24 False messiahs[k] and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note: I have told you in advance. 26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures[l] will gather.
[h=3]The Coming of the Son of Man[/h]29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken.

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth[m] will mourn;[n] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,from one end of the sky to the other.
[h=3]The Parable of the Fig Tree[/h]32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize[o] that He[p] is near—at the door! 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

 

[PlainWord]

Come over to the UK and be safe. We don't believe in the great tribulation LOL

Yeah, but you guys let far too many Muslims into your country. I was in London in 2011 and thought my plan landed in Riyadh. Good grief!! You guys need to hang on to your heads. over there...

 

[PlainWord]

Matthew 24 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Destruction of the Temple Predicted

24 As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them,“Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!”
Signs of the End of the Age

3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet.7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines[a] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains.
Persecutions Predicted

9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution,[b] and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.[c]14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world[d] as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation

15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation,[e][f] spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand[g]),16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop[h] must not come down to get things out of his house. 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[i] survive.[j]But those days will be limited because of the elect.
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! 24 False messiahs[k] and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note: I have told you in advance. 26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures[l] will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken.

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth[m] will mourn;[n] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,from one end of the sky to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize[o] that He[p] is near—at the door! 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

And your point is???? I can copy and paste too.

 

[PlainWord]

No, this is your twisting of the Word to fit your view.

STALEMATE!

I think you mean Checkmate. Without a lesson which discuss "phases" you cannot prove that there are any. Take the clear reading of the Word. There is Christ who was resurrected around April 6, 0033 then there will be everyone else on the Last Day.

 

[Dayo]

The Bible speaks for itself so why debate over the Bible because folks will have different opinions which may not add up with the Word of God. The Bible has all the answers to your questions above or maybe you can give us the answers by using the Bible.

 

[PlainWord]

The Great Falling Away has already begun. Haven't you noticed the INCREASE in people who claim to be Christians but deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, Deny the Bible was all inspired by GOD, Deny the Doctrine of the Trinity, Deny relevancy of Scripture to this day and age, Deny HE CREATED everything visible and invisible, Deny we are submit to HIM as LORD meaning MASTER, etc., etc.

I agree the Falling Away has begun. So, shouldn't we be gone if there is a pre-Trib rapture? Remember what Christ said???

[SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Can't you see from the above that Christ doesn't come to "rapture" away millions of believers? When He comes, He finds very few believers left. Most are either killed and make up the Great Multitude or turned from the faith to avoid persecution and death. When He comes, He comes to avenge, not to "rapture."

Christ isn't even the one who does the Rapture, God raptures. Christ simply gathers His Elect when He comes.

 

[PlainWord]

The Bible speaks for itself so why debate over the Bible because folks will have different opinions which may not add up with the Word of God. The Bible has all the answers to your questions above or maybe you can give us the answers by using the Bible.

The Olivet Discourse proves many of the points I was making to VCO. Thanks for pasting it. Did you have a point you were trying to make? If so, I missed it.

 

[VioletReigns]

Just wondering.........

 

[popeye]

Matthew 24 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Destruction of the Temple Predicted

24 As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them,“Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!”
Signs of the End of the Age

3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet.7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines[a] and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains.
Persecutions Predicted

9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution,[b] and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.[c]14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world[d] as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation

15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation,[e][f] spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand[g]),16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop[h] must not come down to get things out of his house. 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[i] survive.[j]But those days will be limited because of the elect.
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! 24 False messiahs[k] and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note: I have told you in advance. 26 So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures[l] will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not shed its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the celestial powers will be shaken.

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth[m] will mourn;[n] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,from one end of the sky to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize[o] that He[p] is near—at the door! 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Uh,you conviently left out the only rapture reference

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Your theory directly contrdicts this. BEFORE THR FLOOD???? Show me anything Postflood/post GT in the noah story.

'One taken,one left' (cue Postribs creativity here)

All you did was affirm the second coming at the end of the gt.which pretribs also believe