When does the rapture occur?

[GaryA]

AND that certainly did not happen in 70 A.D.

You paying attention GaryA?

"More than most..."

Never in my life have I believed that Zechariah 14:4 was describing anything that happened in 70 A.D. -- I believe that it is most definitely referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

Check Out the Theologians that Disagree with you, ...

Dr. John MacArthur
Dr. Charles Stanley
Dr. Adrian Rogers
etc.

I have heard many a sermon by the three men listed above. ( And some others not in your list. ) They are all still wrong about the End Times Scenario if they believe in the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" lie that has ravaged the U.S.A. for so long...

I was raised with that teaching - "I know all about it" - and, I have found it to be in error.

ALL with a Doctorate Degree in Theology, all stating the 70th Week of Daniel is YET future after the Church-age, all agreeing that the prophesied covenant (peace treaty) between Antichrist and ISRAEL will happen in the future;

And ALL wrong about these things if that is what they all believe.

and ALL agreeing that GOD is not finished with ISRAEL.

I agree with this part. I believe that God does have "special plans" for Israel during the 1000-year reign of Christ.

So how is it that you know more than the best Theologians in the land?

Because I "pay attention" to what the Bible actually says, instead of simply believing what other men may say...

Because I do my own personal Bible study - without regarding other men's commentary too highly...

Because I do not regard the 'credentials' of men too highly...

 

[popeye]

well we ARE reigning on the earth (Rom 5.17; Eph 2.5-6)

seems I'm right after all

Well if you are thinking we are in the millineum,then satan would be chained and completely out of the picture,correct?

 

[PlainWord]

If this isn't a rapture, I don't know what is. ..

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This definitely happens but it happens after the resurrection which of course is on the LAST DAY. Last, is last. There are no more days after the last day.

 

[PlainWord]

Check Out the Theologians that Disagree with you, including Dr. John MacArthur who is President of the Master's Seminary near Los Angeles, California:

Daniel 9:27 (ASV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.









I could go on and on with Commentaries on Dan. 9:27 from men such as Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Adrian Rogers, Dr. Ed Young Sr., Dr. Zola Levitt, Dr. Ben Haden, Dr. Gil Rugh, Dr. Richard Lee, etc., etc. ALL with a Doctorate Degree in Theology, all stating the 70th Week of Daniel is YET future after the Church-age, all agreeing that the prophesied covenant (peace treaty) between Antichrist and ISRAEL will happen in the future; and ALL agreeing that GOD is not finished with ISRAEL. So how is it that you know more than the best Theologians in the land?

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding...

The Bible is filled with "wise" men who were wrong about spiritual things. The religious leaders in Christ's day were about as wrong as you could get. Some things never change.

 

[PlainWord]

Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

No question Daniel 9 is in dispute. I don't know how anyone can state conclusively that the events of Chapter 9 are completed or not completed. There just isn't enough information there. My take is this:

We are told 70 weeks are determined for the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The text makes clear that 69 of those weeks take us "Until Messiah the Prince." We are not told of there being a break between Week 69 and 70. We are told that after Week 69, Messiah will be cut off. Then we are told this:

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The above clearly happened in AD 70. So what of verse 27? We have a clear sequence here as indicated by the first word of Verse 27. In other words, the above happens "THEN".... Then this:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering...

If Verse 26 concludes with events of AD 70 that means that verse 27 cannot be going back to the Cross of 33 AD. The order is clear, after AD 70, then he (someone) shall confirm a covenant with many for 7 years. We are not told here who the "he" is, nor who the "many" are. All of us are speculating.

 

[valiant]

Well if you are thinking we are in the millineum,then satan would be chained and completely out of the picture,correct?

As do so many you read in what is not said. Jesus did chain him (Matt 12.28-29). He also chained many of his powerful followers (Col 2.15). Satan was restrained until the restraining angel was taken out of the way (2 Thess 2). In other words God put tight restrictions on him. But it is interesting to note that from Rev 13.1 onwards Satan IS out of the picture. In 9.11 he is released from the Abyss prior to the second coming, as in Rev 20.1-3. Compare how the final Beast came out of the Abyss in Rev 17.8. So the Abyss was opened prior to Christ's coming.

 

[valiant]

No question Daniel 9 is in dispute. I don't know how anyone can state conclusively that the events of Chapter 9 are completed or not completed. There just isn't enough information there. My take is this:

We are told 70 weeks are determined for the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The text makes clear that 69 of those weeks take us "Until Messiah the Prince." We are not told of there being a break between Week 69 and 70. We are told that after Week 69, Messiah will be cut off. Then we are told this:

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The above clearly happened in AD 70.

change it to seventy sevens and I agree with most of what you say.

So what of verse 27? We have a clear sequence here as indicated by the first word of Verse 27. In other words, the above happens "THEN".... Then this:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering...

Your only problem is that THEN is not in the Hebrew. It is a translator's interpretation. So your theory collapses.

If Verse 26 concludes with events of AD 70 that means that verse 27 cannot be going back to the Cross of 33 AD. The order is clear, after AD 70, then he (someone) shall confirm a covenant with many for 7 years. We are not told here who the "he" is, nor who the "many" are. All of us are speculating.

But that is not the case for the Hebrew simply says 'and' which in Hebrew must never be emphasised. Thus there is no time sequence emphasised. Verse 26 can be referring back.

It is God Who renews the covenant with them. And the ceasing of sacrifices surely ties in with both the death of the Messiah and the destruction of the Temple

 

[PlainWord]

change it to seventy sevens and I agree with most of what you say.

Agreed, they are 1 week of years. In other words, 1 week is 7 years, so 70 weeks is 490 years.

Your only problem is that THEN is not in the Hebrew. It is a translator's interpretation. So your theory collapses.

Didn't check the translation till you said this, and it does appear you are correct.

But that is not the case for the Hebrew simply says 'and' which in Hebrew must never be emphasised. Thus there is no time sequence emphasised. Verse 26 can be referring back.

Could it be referring back? Not likely. Why would Daniel discuss the AD 70 Temple events then go back to 33 AD which was an unrelated event without telling us he was going back?

The text says: he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week...

Christ covenant did not last just one week (7 years).

But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering..

If the above referred to Christ's roughly 3.5 year ministry then yes, the above could refer to Christ on the Cross if we take the spiritual meaning. But the actual sacrificing and offerings that were happening in the Temple continued in the Temple until it was destroyed. The two events, the Cross in 33 AD and the Temple in 70 AD were 37 years apart. Thus there is no linkage to the two events.

It is God Who renews the covenant with them. And the ceasing of sacrifices surely ties in with both the death of the Messiah and the destruction of the Temple

Again, the death of Messiah was 37 years prior to the Destruction of the Temple. So, I don't see the connection that you and others see. I also don't see any Abomination of Desolation that was set up in AD 70 either, but that is a different topic.

 

[crossnote]

"More than most..."

Never in my life have I believed that Zechariah 14:4 was describing anything that happened in 70 A.D. -- I believe that it is most definitely referring to the Second Coming of Christ.



I have heard many a sermon by the three men listed above. ( And some others not in your list. ) They are all still wrong about the End Times Scenario if they believe in the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" lie that has ravaged the U.S.A. for so long...

I was raised with that teaching - "I know all about it" - and, I have found it to be in error.



And ALL wrong about these things if that is what they all believe.



I agree with this part. I believe that God does have "special plans" for Israel during the 1000-year reign of Christ.



Because I "pay attention" to what the Bible actually says, instead of simply believing what other men may say...

Because I do my own personal Bible study - without regarding other men's commentary too highly...

Because I do not regard the 'credentials' of men too highly...

Many people do their 'own personal study' but end up with different results...nothing new here.

 

[crossnote]

This definitely happens but it happens after the resurrection which of course is on the LAST DAY. Last, is last. There are no more days after the last day.

Last Day of Church Age?, Last Day of the Tribulation? of the Millennium? ...go on.

 

[crossnote]

As do so many you read in what is not said. Jesus did chain him (Matt 12.28-29). He also chained many of his powerful followers (Col 2.15). Satan was restrained until the restraining angel was taken out of the way (2 Thess 2). In other words God put tight restrictions on him. But it is interesting to note that from Rev 13.1 onwards Satan IS out of the picture. In 9.11 he is released from the Abyss prior to the second coming, as in Rev 20.1-3. Compare how the final Beast came out of the Abyss in Rev 17.8. So the Abyss was opened prior to Christ's coming.

Nowhere does it say that satan is on a tight leash during this age. The 20th century slaughter of millions and millions testifies against that theory.

 

[valiant]

Nowhere does it say that satan is on a tight leash during this age. The 20th century slaughter of millions and millions testifies against that theory.

I didn't realise that Satan was personally doing the slaughtering. I though it was human beings. Just shows how wrong you can be. Indeed it was through human beings that Satan went around like a roaring lion seeking whom he could devour.

THAT IS THE POINT. A restricted Satan used his minions to do his dirty work for him. He is not personally involved

 

[valiant]

Nowhere does it say that satan is on a tight leash during this age.

As do so many you read in what is not said. Jesus did chain him (Matt 12.28-29). He also chained many of his powerful followers (Col 2.15). Satan was restrained until the restraining angel was taken out of the way (2 Thess 2). In other words God put tight restrictions on him. But it is interesting to note that from Rev 13.1 onwards Satan IS out of the picture. He is not mentioned as acting. His minions act for him. However, in 9.11 he is released from the Abyss prior to the second coming, as in Rev 20.1-3. Compare how the final Beast came out of the Abyss in Rev 17.8. So the Abyss was opened prior to Christ's coming.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Nowhere does it say that satan is on a tight leash during this age. The 20th century slaughter of millions and millions testifies against that theory.

God HAS him on a leash.. oh yes.. satan HAS to become Submissive to the Commands of Christ, his seats thrones principalities, satans, whether invisible or visible... 'being made Subject onto Christ'... One who is made Subject unto another, means the Another, Christ has defeated him.. this WAS Christ at the Tree, that is the GREATNESS OF THE WORK OF THE CROSS, Its appeasement In perfection, the author of iniquity has to be submissive and respond to the Commands Of Christ in Heaven, as he presents himself for accusation and slander... and as he petitions for human souls.. as he is a destroyer, he hates MAN period! Christ Himself has the keys to Death and hades.. nobody 'dies' without His authorization... thats why Jesus said 'it was finished'.. the author of Iniquity was Disarmed! 'flesh' defeating a 'power higher and greater than it'.. that which 'man being weak in the flesh. could not do.. but God accomplished it thru His Son, perfect no sin made in the likness of sinful flesh.. the Appeasment of Christ! perfection! Can God use 'satan' to fulfill His Word? or discipline or chastize? oh most definately.. that is noted in the OT and NT... God is 100% SOVEREIGN over His Creation, both Righteous and un righteous, wicked and converted, non elect angels and elect angels... The Sovereignty of God, a MYSTERY to so many.. AND demonstrated at the Tree, where they crucified Him!

 

[crossnote]

I didn't realise that Satan was personally doing the slaughtering. I though it was human beings. Just shows how wrong you can be. Indeed it was through human beings that Satan went around like a roaring lion seeking whom he could devour.

THAT IS THE POINT. A restricted Satan used his minions to do his dirty work for him. He is not personally involved

satan is the father of lies and the whole world lies in his hands...

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Delusional to think satan is bound or on a short leash.

 

[valiant]

satan is the father of lies and the whole world lies in his hands...

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Delusional to think satan is bound or on a short leash.

Will you tell Jesus or shall I?

 

[PlainWord]

Last Day of Church Age?, Last Day of the Tribulation? of the Millennium? ...go on.

Those are last "days" but there is only one "last day" as discussed here. For the "last day" as discussed repeatedly by Christ in John 6 and other places to be the "last day" of the church age, He would have so qualified it as such. We must take the clear meaning when we don't have something that allows us to qualify it. In none of the passages that deal with the Return of Christ do we find a qualifier that allows us to locate the timing before the literal last day.

 

[popeye]

God HAS him on a leash.. oh yes.. satan HAS to become Submissive to the Commands of Christ, his seats thrones principalities, satans, whether invisible or visible... 'being made Subject onto Christ'... One who is made Subject unto another, means the Another, Christ has defeated him.. this WAS Christ at the Tree, that is the GREATNESS OF THE WORK OF THE CROSS, Its appeasement In perfection, the author of iniquity has to be submissive and respond to the Commands Of Christ in Heaven, as he presents himself for accusation and slander... and as he petitions for human souls.. as he is a destroyer, he hates MAN period! Christ Himself has the keys to Death and hades.. nobody 'dies' without His authorization... thats why Jesus said 'it was finished'.. the author of Iniquity was Disarmed! 'flesh' defeating a 'power higher and greater than it'.. that which 'man being weak in the flesh. could not do.. but God accomplished it thru His Son, perfect no sin made in the likness of sinful flesh.. the Appeasment of Christ! perfection! Can God use 'satan' to fulfill His Word? or discipline or chastize? oh most definately.. that is noted in the OT and NT... God is 100% SOVEREIGN over His Creation, both Righteous and un righteous, wicked and converted, non elect angels and elect angels... The Sovereignty of God, a MYSTERY to so many.. AND demonstrated at the Tree, where they crucified Him!

The point is that during the millineum satan is chained and NO LONGER A PLAYER. THE 'DEFEATED THINGGY" has to do with authority,not location.

 

[Elin]

satan is the father of lies and the whole world lies in his hands...

No pun intended?

 

[popeye]

Will you tell Jesus or shall I?

Most of hollywood and a huge part of america are satan worshippers and the literal possesion of millions by demons,completely destroys a "satan chained" concept.

You do realize if I chain an african lion in chicago,he can not and will not have any influence in San Francisco?