Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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mattp0625

Guest
Just for the sake of Gods Word I noticed someone claiming the Trinity isn't in the Bible. Now the Word Trinity is not. This is so. But it is an English Word for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one. Here are some verses that back up this belief. I'm sure I can find more if you like but I must get to sleep now.


  • "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)
  • Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
  • "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
  • "He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." (John 12:45)
  • If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom. 8:9)
  • "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 1:20)
  • And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
  • [Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:16-17, 23)
Lastly I pray for all the following scrpiture:

Ephesians 1:17-18 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible) May the God of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, the glorious Father, to give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you will have full knowledge of Him. I pray that he will give light to the eyes of your hearts, so that you will understand the hope to which he has called you, what rich glories there are in the inheritance He has promised His people,

in the mighty and powerful name Yeshua/Jesus.
Friend, as accurately pointed out by SAVAS, take 2 Timothy 3:16:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Folks would have you believe this clearly points out that Scripture Alone is the basis and authority for having the pure basis of truth. I see a verse that says scripture is profitable, but I don't see words that indicate scripture is the ONLY, or sole way to be profitable.

There is also this claim of "faith alone"

This ignores James 2 that cites "faith without works is dead".

It also ignores all the verses that cite grace, love, good works, forgiveness, traditions, sacraments, etc.

Friend, to summarize, we are not disagreeing that the Word is profitable, nor faith. We just deny these personal interpretations and their basis to accuse others of heresy and condemnation.
 
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Since i have proved that the Catholic Church is teaching lies, the Catholic Church is no longer the "Pillar" of Truth!

Since the Catholics no longer have the Truth in them we can ignore everything the Catholics teach.

Therefore everything the Catholics say is not from God and we can ignore everything they say.

If you Catholics want to debate what is actually in the Scriptures then we will debate with you. But its a waste of time debating the lies from the Catholic Church.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Mattp0625 how can there be ANY Truth in this World controlled by Satan? All Truths are ONLY in the Scriptures!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Peter was the leader of the 11 apostles and the larger 120 disciples as shown in Acts. Peter, in his Epistle, mentions he was with his son Mark. History and the bible also puts Mark in Rome. Various historians such as Tertullian put Peter in Rome

Paul met Jesus at Damascus, converged with Apostles, and ended up in Rome too.

Lastly, there is a list of popes dating back to Peter. Peter dies 67 AD. College of cardinals created a little over 30 years later.
Interesting that what the RCC teaches is not supported by the bible. Take Ephesians 2:19-21 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens with the saints and the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. In whom all the building fitly framed growth together unto an holy temple in the Lord.

Not founded upon a single apostle and all founded upon Christ. Clarifies the teaching on Matthew 16:18-19. the stone upon which the church is founded is Christ. The authority in the church is Christ. The church founded in Jerusalem not in Rome.

There is no conclusive evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. 1 Peter 5:13 being an unclear reference to Peter being at Rome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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. We even proved this "Sola Scriptura" concept is not found in the bible.
another of your basic lies. you mean you have satisfied yourself that you are right by closing your eyes to the evidence

as Jesus said, 'you make the word of God void through your tradition,'
 
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mattp0625

Guest
another of your basic lies. you mean you have satisfied yourself that you are right by closing your eyes to the evidence

as Jesus said, 'you make the word of God void through your tradition,'

Sir, below is 2 Tim 3:
[SUP]
16
[/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Sir, kindly show point to the words "only" or "alone" in this verse, as the "only" way to be profitable.



Then, sir, please reconcile "scripture alone" or "faith alone" with the rest of the bible, such as James 2 (below):

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
 
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mikeuk

Guest
Since i have proved that the Catholic Church is teaching lies, the Catholic Church is no longer the "Pillar" of Truth!.
All you have proved , is you never did know the catechism or doctrine of RCC, provable in many of your posts, which is why you were easy prey for all the evangelical anti catholic claptrap.

Have you defeated sola scriptura yet? It is so easy to prove it is false, I would start there in your return to the true church.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
So , protestants.

Are you going to answer why it is there are 10000 flavours of protestant doctrine , all of the denominations born after 1500? - none traceable back to the true church.

It is convenient to argue "they agree on the fundamentals" - they do not - which is why they fracture with monotonous regularity. The differences are profound, and the list above only just scratches the surface, but multiply up that list and you already see 10000 permutations and flavours of radically different doctrine.

How can any of them be the true church? They are mutually exclusive so at very least 9999 of the 10000 are false doctrine. So which of the 10000 is right? And are you going to denounce the 9999 as heretics?

There are a lot more versions of "make up your own" designer christianity, just cannot be bothered to type numbers longer than 5 digits.
That is simply not true, the difference are massive , profound and across every aspect of Christianity, because everyone post reformation makes their " own" designer version if the ones on offer do not conform to themselves.

The list is endless but take..

At least 5 mutually exclusive versions of Eucharist, from real flesh and blood, real presence, sacrament but not Jesus, memorialism and so on....

At least 4 versions of salvation from OSAS at one end, to saved can lose it, to only saved at judgement. Salvation a process or an event.

Single, or double predestination or none.

At least 3 different interpretations of baptism in addition to infant vs adult

Modalism vs trinitarianism.

None biblical quasi sacraments like asking Jesus into your life, and other flavours of that.

Clergy , bishops , priests or none, viewed essential or not

Elders have freedom on doctrine or not.

Liturgy of many flavours


Pro life vs pro choice

The destination of infants who die before baptism.

Gay, women or male only clergy

etc etc

THe list is endless, profound and in 10000 variants and schisms have happened on every one, and all of these sects were formed of a fracture, from a fracture destined to fracture.

Luther hated the monster he had created in later life, saying every milkmaid had their own doctrine, and the only way back to unity was via the councils of Rome. Yes he said it , look it up!

Why? Because there is no authority or compass.
The origins of only one can be traced back millenia , whose beliefs are in essence unchanged which is RCC. The early church was sacramental, liturgical, appointed bishops in succession, believed in real presence and so on, believes in prolife, essentially unchanged, whilst every other denomination panders to populism. If you don't like it invent your own.


Even the east west schism is over played which was over an obscure piece of theology Filioque which has little bearing on religious practice,and history records the two almost rejoined after the fourth Lateran council, which is important because transubstantiation was discussed at that council.

The endless schisms of Protestantism are an affront to Christianity.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by mattp0625
Peter was the leader of the 11 apostles and the larger 120 disciples as shown in Acts.
Peter is NEVER described as the leader of the Apostles. In Acts 2 he acted as spokesman not as leader. As you go through Acts it speaks of the twelve with one voice. He is never said to be the leader. When the disciples were discussing who among them was 'the greatest' Jesus told them all, including Peter, that to seek to be the greatest was sinful, and they should rather seek to be the least. It doesn't sound as though He saw Peter as 'the leader'.

In Acts 15.6 when the church gathered in Jerusalem to discuss matters it simply says that 'the apostles and elders gathered together to discuss the matter'. Peter had no special place. It was James who made the final decision.

You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God.

Peter, in his Epistle, mentions he was with his son Mark. History and the bible also puts Mark in Rome. V
Paul was with Mark. Barnabas was with Mark. Mark was with Timothy and returned to Paul (2 Tim 4.11). When Silvanus (Paul's co-worker) and Mark were with Peter it must have been after Paul's death. Thus they were not together very long. Mark was in Rome because he had been there with Paul in his final days. So all that tells us is that Peter wrote his letter when he was about to face martyrdom.

Various historians such as Tertullian put Peter in Rome
yes he was taken there to be martyred, as with Ignatius. He did not spend any amount of time there.

Paul met Jesus at Damascus, converged with Apostles, and ended up in Rome too.
we all know why Paul landed in Rome (Acts 19-28).what has that to do with Peter?

Lastly, there is a list of popes dating back to Peter. Peter dies 67 AD. College of cardinals created a little over 30 years later.
According to Roman Catholic forgeries. In fact we do not have a line going back to Peter. Paul knew nothing of Peter in Rome in his letter. 1 Clement in c 95 AD knew nothing of a monarchical bishop in Rome. Ignatius of Antioch when he wrote his letter to Rome knew nothing about a monarchical bishop in Rome.

In the Roman Catholic cathedral in Leeds (UK) there is a list of so-called popes. But it commences with a gap between 70 AD and 325 AD because it is recognised that the details of such are unknown. Irenaeus invented bishops for the sake of his arguments. He had no historical evidence, for he contradicted what we know to be the facts.

There was no college of cardinals in 97 AD which appears to be what you are saying. Cardinals had not even been heard of. And please don't produce some of your churches forged letters.
 
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mattp0625

Guest
Deaconi cardinales.

Yet, both Paul and Peter were in Rome, as was Mark.

Peter never described as leader? He only stood up and spoke up in the midst of the 120 disciples and 11 Apostles, healed in the name of Jesus, was sought by and spoke with dignitaries respected by nations, preached repentance to the Jews for condemning Jesus...

Additionally Peter is mentioned over 190 times in the bible. The next closest is John with under 50.

Sounds like a leader.
 
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mattp0625

Guest
And Jesus answered and said unto him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar- jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (Matt 17)

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt 18)

- Jesus Christ speaking
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Sir, below is 2 Tim 3:
[SUP]
16
[/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Sir, kindly show point to the words "only" or "alone" in this verse, as the "only" way to be profitable.
I wonder why you miss out what follows? 'That the man of God may be COMPLETE, furnished completely unto every good work' (2 Peter 3.17) That indicates total sufficiency.

You also miss out the verse before (of course). 'From a babe you have known the sacred writings which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.' (2 Tim 3.15)
now show me where it says that Roman Catholic traditions are able to make us wise to salvation, and can make a man of God complete.

You also omit mention of Jesus declaring that the Scribes 'made the word of God (the Scriptures) void through their tradition.' (Mark 7.13) Just like you Roman Catholics make the word of God void through their tradition.. JESUS clearly laid all the emphasis for truth on the word of God. And the early church agreed with Him
Then, sir, please reconcile "scripture alone" or "faith alone" with the rest of the bible, such as James 2 (below):

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
I realise you must find it difficult so I will try to put it in simple language for you.

Paul made clear that salvation was through faith ALONE (on man's side). 'Being accounted as righteous freely (without cost) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus -- that He might be righteous and account as righteous those who believe in Jesus --- we reckon a man is accounted as righteous by faith not by the deeds of the Law . (Rom 3.24-29).

By unmerited love you are saved through FAITH and that not of yourselves for it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast (Eph 2.8-9)

All that James is saying is that if someone has truly experienced Christ he will be known by his fruits.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Sir, below is 2 Tim 3:
[SUP]
16
[/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Sir, kindly show point to the words "only" or "alone" in this verse, as the "only" way to be profitable.



Then, sir, please reconcile "scripture alone" or "faith alone" with the rest of the bible, such as James 2 (below):

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone


This scripture in 2 Timothy 3 is about using scripture to improve and change how we are walking in life.
It is not saying we have the right or a person in the faith has the right to change what it says, as it is saying that all we need is the Holy Spirit and His word to show us how to properly walk in the faith. The scriptures show us how to properly walk in the faith by walking in His true word, show us the correct way, change our sinful ways, and keep us walking accordingly to His will.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
another of your basic lies. you mean you have satisfied yourself that you are right by closing your eyes to the evidence'
As far as I am aware valiant, you have not even offered a shred of evidence for sola scriptura, so using the word "lies" is un called for.

Sola scriptura is biblically, logically and historically false , there is nothing more to be said on it!

Biblically false: Nowhere in the bible does it say "all truth (or necessary truth - reformationists cannot agree what it means even) is contained in the bible" Nowhere in the bible does it say it has to be in the bible! So it is biblically false.
Sure in vairous places it says "scripture is valuable" - but nowhere does it say all truth is in scripture.

Logically false: Simple logic this. If you regard sola scriptura as a necessary truth, which you must since you base your faith on it, then because it is a necessary truth, it would have to be in scripture, otherwise you believe in a logical contradiction,since the most important item of truth in your eyes is missing!

Historically false: For the first christians the faith was handed on by apostles, jesus gave us apostles not a book! So when Paul says "hold fast to tradition given to you by word of mouth and letter", and nowhere in that does he say gospels, for the reason they were not written yet! To jesus and Paul scripture meant old testament, because the new was not written for the early christians.

It is also roundly contradicted. The "pillar and foundation of truth is the church". If God had wanted to say "the pillar and foundation of truth is scripture" he would have done! or do you think God was not very good at saying what he meant? Moreover , the last line of John says all of Jesus teachings and works could not fit in many books, let alone the one!

So do not use the word"lies" in respect of truth, indeed because it is uncivilized behaviour so do not use the word at all.

Just say you disagree, and in this case without a shred of evidence to back your claim.
The entire reformation was a built on a straw man.
 
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doesn't matter to nor for the rcc. even if they don't find "scripture alone" or "faith alone", their doctrine is

demonic source and OPPOSED TO SCRIPTURE, with or without "scripture alone" or "faith alone" ,

and since the HERESY is OPPOSED TO SCRIPTURE, it is what it is, the enemy of GOD and of HIS PEOPLE.
 
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mattp0625

Guest
This scripture in 2 Timothy 3 is about using scripture to improve and change how we are walking in life.
It is not saying we have the right or a person in the faith has the right to change what it says, as it is saying that all we need is the Holy Spirit and His word to show us how to properly walk in the faith. The scriptures show us how to properly walk in the faith by walking in His true word, show us the correct way, change our sinful ways, and keep us walking accordingly to His will.
Kenneth - Agreed that scripture is profitable Only pointing out it does not say Scripture Alone or Faith Alone. I noticed you added the words "all we need". It is this added interpretation that is not in the verse and ignores other books in the bible.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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So , protestants.

Are you going to answer why it is there are 10000 flavours of protestant doctrine , all of the denominations born after 1500? - none traceable back to the true church.
There is no church which is traceable back to 'the true church' (whatever that was). There never was a 'true church'. There were a large number of independent churches around the known world and which of them were included as part of the true church, depended on opinion. In the first three centuries there was no hierarchy. Only God knew who the 'true church' was, even outwardly. But more importantly only God knew who were truly His. Large churches, such as Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, Rome tried to exert their influence in their own area. But none fully succeeded.

Then came the catastrophic fourth century when the church, instead of being kept 'pure' by persecution, was pervaded by pagan ideas as a consequence of Constantine's 'conversion'. He tried to make the Roman church pre-eminent for political reason and failed. The Roman church was the one that was most affected by paganism. The 'true church' had ceased to exist outwardly. Although of course God knew who belonged to the true, now 'invisible' to men, church. (Invisible in that no one really knew who exactly belonged to it. It was of course visible, just indeterminable).

Thus the first Christians belonged to independent churches which practised adult baptism (guess who that looks like?) . Sadly as the centuries passed true Christians had to go 'underground' in order to escape the persecution now being carried out by supposed Christians..

The Roman Catholic church did not come into being until after 700 AD. It was simply a political organisation using religion for its own end.s. Before that it was simply a regional church. It did not even control the West. The Celtic church was equally powerful and not in submission to Rome..

Thus no church truly traces back to 'the true church' which never existed as a physical unity, only as a spiritual unity.

As you know, Mark, when you are being honest, there are not a huge number of denominations in the UK. Why do you pretend that there are? And non-Roman Catholic churches get together in unity through organisations like the evangelical alliance and the Keswick conventions. They are not divided and in antagonism with each other. In these organisations all are united under one statement of doctrine which makes allowance for minor differences. So you are totally distorting the position to your own ends. SHAME ON YOU.

It is convenient to argue "they agree on the fundamentals" - they do not
Evangelicals in ALL denominations do, apart from the RC church. You simply try to exaggerate the differences.

- which is why they fracture with monotonous regularity.
Rubbish.

The differences are profound, and the list above only just scratches the surface, but multiply up that list and you already see 10000 permutations and flavours of radically different doctrine.
I don't actually think that you are really aware of the facts. You are a turncoat who is simply trying to put the worst reflection on the situation. It is always turncoats who try to exaggerate differences in order to justify their own desertion.

How can any of them be the true church? They are mutually exclusive so at very least 9999 of the 10000 are false doctrine. So which of the 10000 is right? And are you going to denounce the 9999 as heretics?
you would be better to say nothing and seem stupid, than speak out and show that you are. the church you are describing is not one I recognise. It is NOT true in the UK. Evangelicals in all denominations get together in demonstrations of unity. They are NOT mutually exclusive. I have preached acceptably in most of them and have always been welcomed. You are a distorter of the truth.

There are a lot more versions of "make up your own" designer christianity, just cannot be bothered to type numbers longer than 5 digits.
A good description of the present Roman Catholic church, 'make up your own designer pretended Christianity'..
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Kenneth - Agreed that scripture is profitable Only pointing out it does not say Scripture Alone or Faith Alone. I noticed you added the words "all we need". It is this added interpretation that is not in the verse and ignores other books in the bible.
If it can make us wise unto salvation (2 Tim 3.15) and is able to make us complete, completely equipped to every good work' (2 Tim 3.17) how is it not all we need? You simply will not accept it because BIG DADDY tells you not to. The whole Bible agrees with us. Even Jesus emphasised the authority of the Scriptures and enabled His Apostles to complete the Scriptures by 'leading them into all truth'.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Friend, as accurately pointed out by SAVAS, take 2 Timothy 3:16:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Folks would have you believe this clearly points out that Scripture Alone is the basis and authority for having the pure basis of truth. I see a verse that says scripture is profitable, but I don't see words that indicate scripture is the ONLY, or sole way to be profitable.

There is also this claim of "faith alone"

This ignores James 2 that cites "faith without works is dead".

It also ignores all the verses that cite grace, love, good works, forgiveness, traditions, sacraments, etc.

Friend, to summarize, we are not disagreeing that the Word is profitable, nor faith. We just deny these personal interpretations and their basis to accuse others of heresy and condemnation.
Is that mean another source acceptable though oppose the word of God/bible?


Example:'
[h=1]Scapular[/h]

[h=2]Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular Shall not suffer eternal fire![/h]Our Lady of Mount Carmel to Simon StockJuly 16, 1251 No matter how extraordinary this promise may appear to be, the Blessed Mother made it and She will keep it. At the word of Her FIAT, She conceived by the Holy Ghost and the Incarnate Word became Man. If Almighty God, in obedience to the word of the priest every day at Holy Mass, comes down upon our Altars Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, will He refuse His Mother this grace for Her children!
To save souls from Hell, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.
– Fatima. 1917


If so let rob the bank as long as wear this scapular will go to heaven anyway.
 

SAVAS

Senior Member
Aug 18, 2013
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Is Jesus Christ not personal to you? Then sadly you are not saved. A second hand Jesus will do you no good.
Valiant, I'm simply pointing out that the scriptures don't literally say "personal Lord and Savior". That's very bold of you to judge my salvation over the internet.

Folks, here is a great example of why Sola Scriptura is so flaky. Valiant cant even interpret my sentence above, you expect him to interpret the Sacred Scriptures.