When does the rapture occur?
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It's from Isaiah 65, but not sure your interpretation is 100% accurate. It doesn't say anything about people being given 100 years to repent or die.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
It tells us those who live in Jerusalem will have very long life spans. It just says that the sinner being 100 years old shall be accursed. It doesn't say he is killed at 100 years old.
God certainly does not pour His bowls of wrath out on His people. However, He does warn His people to flee the area where his wrath is to be poured so that they are not harmed.
Rev 18:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached[SUP][b][/SUP] to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Isa 66:
The hand of the Lord shall be known to His servants,
And His indignation to His enemies.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Is. 65 also says that peace will flow like a river, that it will be a time of consolation and that the glory of the Gentiles will flourish. This isn't the picture we see in Rev. Is. 65 is better seen as the millenial picture, not the tribulation picture.
I have found this thread very sad and unchristian. No one has a right to post on here and insult those who reply in disagreement, This is a discussion site. If anyone has a complaint then let them go to the mods and abide by their decision. That is the Christian way, not unpleasant and unchristian remarks to one another..
If we take these words literally they result in a great problem. 'No more shall there be heard in it the sound of weeping.'
But surely at whatever age my child dies I would weep? The death of a child at whatever age, and even if we call them young men, can surely only result in weeping? Furthermore it later says that they will not bear children for calamity, The idea must surely be that in the new heavens and the new earth death has been defeated so that no one dies in childhood. A child dying at 100 years old (beyond the natural span of life) being a way of simply stressing that children will not die.
If not then the sinner is clearly cursed in childhood. That seems strange indeed. But what that probably means is that there will be no sinners there, because it would suggest a sinner lived beyond the normal life span. In other words the idea is apocalyptic and is indicating no more death.
Many think Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 describe the Millennium period in Jerusalem. There are dimensions given to the temple that differ from the 1st and 2nd temples. Also, we know that when the new Jerusalem is brought down from heaven to earth, that the gates of the city are named after the 12 tribes of Israel. See Rev 21:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [SUP]11 [/SUP]having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: [SUP]13 [/SUP]three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Now compare this to Ezek 48:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“These are the exits of the city. On the north side, measuring four thousand five hundred cubits [SUP]31 [/SUP](the gates of the city shall be named after the tribes of Israel), the three gates northward: one gate for Reuben, one gate for Judah, and one gate for Levi; [SUP]35 [/SUP]All the way around shall be eighteen thousand cubits; and the name of the city from that day shall be: THE LORD IS THERE.”
So, Jerusalem becomes known from that day forward as "THE LORD IS THERE." What a wonderful place it will be and clearly this has not happened yet. I am not aware of the gates being named after the 12 tribes in either the 1st or 2nd temple. So, if both of the above passages are discussing the Millennium, and there is to be no death of the righteous during this period, how do you explain this?
Ezek 44:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“They shall not defile themselves by coming near a dead person. Only for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister may they defile themselves. [SUP]26 [/SUP]After he is cleansed, they shall count seven days for him.
The "they" mentioned above are the Levitical priests. These priests are in Jerusalem. They serve in the temple. Thus they apparently will see the death of family in Jerusalem. Apparently there is still marriage during the Millennium which we know there is no marriage in the final eternal state. Further, if priests are allowed to defile themselves with a dead relative and they still need a 7 day cleansing period, they must not be in spiritual bodies thus they are subject to death too as they would be mortal.
Clearly there is a temple in Jerusalem after the future war(s) of Ezek 38-39. We see the temple mentioned some 38 times in Ezekiel Chapters 40 through 48. Isaiah sees a future temple too.
Isa 66:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the Lord,
Who fully repays His enemies!
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
So, we have a temple during the millennium and after Christ returns, right?
However, we are told in Rev 21 that there will be no temple in the final eternal state.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it.
So we have a physical temple with dimensions during the millennium, but no physical temple afterward. I get your point about the crying, but maybe there is no crying for the dead. During the millennium there is still marriage and there is still children being born, they just live a very long time as it was in the days of Adam until the flood.
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.
God's people live as long as trees? Children will be brought forth? There are offspring?
Jesus teaches us clearly in Mark 12 that there is no marriage after the resurrection. Therefore the millennium must contain mortal beings.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? [SUP]25 [/SUP]For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
It appears to me that the lack of crying happens after the millennium and applies to the final eternal state.
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so these verses only show [one] physical resurrection, where is the second one, of the [same] person.
bible says we sleep[dead] till our change comes, we do not go to heaven in
a corruptable state,physical or in spirit, we are changed to uncoruptable at his
second comming on earth, or recurrected mortal in the G.W. throne judgement
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The Temple in Ezekiel was never designed to be built. It was a 'heavenly' Temple sent down by God to Israel to let them know that He was still among them even though the Temple had been destroyed. As with the chariots and horsemen seen by Elisha it was invisible to all but a prophet. It was on mountain OUTSIDE Jerusalem which indicated that Jerusalem was no longer acceptable to God. As Ezekiel had said earlier the glory of YHWH had departed from Israel.
The only thing required by God to be built was the altar. This was the altar at which offerings were made when there was no physical Temple (e.g. Ezra 3). On the return from Exile the priests and Levites once again established Israelite worship, no doubt following Ezekiel's requirements.
On earth there is no longer any need for a Temple. Jesus Christ is our Temple, and we are the Temple of God made up of living stones. The earthly Temple is defunct.
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God and the Lamb being the temple I view as post Millennium, eternal state, based on Rev 21:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
We see that the judgment has occurred and the books have been opened.
Paul discusses "the temple of God" and the Man of Sin sitting there and people see it.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
The Great Multitude are also said to be in the Temple serving God.
Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Then in Rev 11 John was instructed to actually measure the temple which would seem to be a physical structure.
Revelation 11:1
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
But of course John was told not to measure the court because it was given to the Gentiles. The unsaved Gentiles are not in heaven. Further, the last temple was destroyed in AD 70 which was after John was told to measure it, so it could not have been the temple destroyed by Titus.
Revelation 11:2
But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
But then we have several passages that are discussing the "temple in heaven."
Revelation 11:19
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:17
Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 15:5
After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
Revelation 15:6
And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
Revelation 15:8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
Is it the temple in heaven that the Man of Sin is seen in declaring himself to be God? Is this why war finally breaks out in heaven and Satan is cast to earth? Is this why Satan is able to deceive so many because he is seen in heaven first?
I have a theory that heaven approaches earth in the last days and is visible to us on the ground. There is much scriptural support for this view.
Remember the story about the rich man who was proud of his storing up for the future? He was told his life would be demanded that night. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment is your rapture baby!
Probably this year. Almost certainly by 2018.
I believe that the 'fig tree', and its parable in Mat chapter 24 refers to the nation of Israel.
Mt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV
This generation IMO refers to the 70 years commencing 5/15/1948.
I believe that the 'fig tree', and its parable in Mat chapter 24 refers to the nation of Israel.
Mt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV
This generation IMO refers to the 70 years commencing 5/15/1948.
Lk 21:24-25
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Jerusalem was returned to Jewish control in 1968. Fifty years later is the restoration; when the land is returned to its rightful owner. God, Himself , claims to be the rightful owner.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
KJV
What do you see in the news?
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Jerusalem was returned to Jewish control in 1968. Fifty years later is the restoration; when the land is returned to its rightful owner. God, Himself , claims to be the rightful owner.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
KJV
What do you see in the news?
By recognizing Biblical precedent for considering a generation to be comprised of 70 years.
when Israel refused to conquer the promised land after 40 years of wandering, all who were 30 or above died except Joshua and Caleb.
If that assumption is mistaken then my conclusion is also.
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That was a view held by many. It could happen but I think it more likely that Christ wasn't speaking about a generation since Israel becomes a state but rather it is the generation that sees "these things" start to happen will see them all happen. In other words, the stuff Christ was discussing will all happen within one generation. I do agree it is likely going to be our time frame because events are shaping up that way unlike any other time in history.
G
GaryA
Guest
I used to believe this also; however, I now believe the following:
"come to pass" - 1
"come to pass" - 2
I used to believe this also; however, I now believe the following:
"come to pass" - 1
"come to pass" - 2
Whether they started to come to pass 2,000 years ago or whether they are only now starting to come to pass to me isn't the key idea. It could be argued that Mat 24:1-13 is in the past. If you believe in gaps and a long "Great Tribulation" period one could argue that we are all the way up to verse 27-28. This assumes of course that the A of D happened with Titus or the Dome of the Rock.
My personal view is we have not started the Great Tribulation period yet. I do believe it could be said that the gospel has been preached to all nations. I further believe that everything mentioned as "the beginning of sorrows" has been met. The key phrase to me is this:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The "end" is associated clearly with the gospel being preached in all the world. At no point in history could this be said to have happened until recently. I truly believe Christ (being God and being perfect) did not jump around in the Olivet. Therefore I do not think the A of D is past. (I know, I've argued this the other way many times). Therefore the Great Trib if it has started, only recently started. I base this on the 4th seal being Islam and Islam being behind the great persecution of Christians/Jews/God's People.
I see the Arab world rising up, like never before. They go after each other for awhile, North against South, Shiite against Sunni. At some point there will be an A of D and we will all recognize it. That's when all heck will break loose. What it is and where it will appear are big mysteries. Christ says it will be "in the holy place." Paul says it happens "in the Temple of God." This leads many to think a third Jewish temple will be built. I'm on the fence on this.
There is no mention of a third Jewish temple in the NT. Paul teaches:
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
I see 4 choices:
1) A new 3rd Jewish Temple being build
2) Some type of undefined and ambiguous spiritual take over of the Christian faith
3) The temple already exists such as St. Peters at the Vatican or Temple Mount
4) The word "Temple" appears 13 times in Revelation. 9 of these 13 clearly are referencing the Temple in Heaven
Revelation 11:19
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Could it be????
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GaryA
Guest
Matthew 24:
[SUP]34[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Strong's definition for the word 'fulfilled':
G1096
a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (lit., fig.,intens., etc.):-arise, be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
[TABLE="width: 250"]
[TR]
[TD]prol.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]prolongation; prolonged[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]mid.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]middle (voice)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]prim.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]primary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]reflex.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]reflexive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]lit.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]literal (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]fig.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]figurative (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]intens.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]intensive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Notice the italicized phrases at the beginning of the definition:
~ to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
~ to become (come into being)
This is the essential - "main" - "sense and tense" - of the definition of the word.
The 'effect' of this on the verse is:
This generation shall not pass, till all these things begin to come to pass.
I believe that the generation referred to is the generation that was present at the time Jesus made this statement -- and that - the prophesy that Jesus spoke of began to come to pass before that generation died out. ( i.e. - circa 70 A.D. )
[SUP]34[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Strong's definition for the word 'fulfilled':
G1096
a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (lit., fig.,intens., etc.):-arise, be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
[TABLE="width: 250"]
[TR]
[TD]prol.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]prolongation; prolonged[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]mid.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]middle (voice)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]prim.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]primary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]reflex.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]reflexive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]lit.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]literal (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]fig.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]figurative (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]intens.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]intensive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Notice the italicized phrases at the beginning of the definition:
~ to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
~ to become (come into being)
This is the essential - "main" - "sense and tense" - of the definition of the word.
The 'effect' of this on the verse is:
This generation shall not pass, till all these things begin to come to pass.
I believe that the generation referred to is the generation that was present at the time Jesus made this statement -- and that - the prophesy that Jesus spoke of began to come to pass before that generation died out. ( i.e. - circa 70 A.D. )
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