Catholic Heresy (for the record)
- Thread starter RoboOp
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The woman was Israel resulting in the Jewish church. Her offspring were the true believers in the church. This is clearly demonstrated by the sun, moon and stars associated with her in line with Gen 37.9. John's illustrations are all taken from the Old Testament
You mean yours does LOL
Not at all, unless someone tries to squeeze Mary in where she doesn't belong. The Messiah came through the birth pangs of Israel
Yes and the Messiah would spring from the birth pangs of Israel (e.g. Micah 5.3).
True, so the church sprung out of Israel and in fact in the NT IS Israel.
So true and the church which is composed of all true believers was begotten out of Israel, and is Israel.
No the woman was Israel, it is her offspring who are the church of true believers.
well the woman does not represent the people of God down through the millennia. It is her offspring who do so. It counts MARY out of the reckoning. In no way did the offspring spring out of Mary. They sprang out of Israel.
Let's look at them.
The man child is clearly the equivalent of the son of man and includes both Jesus and His living church, as he does also in Daniel 7.. Both were to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron (Rev 2.27; 19.15). Both were or will be caught up to God.
Mary did not flee into the desert. She fled into Egypt (hardly a desert). However, the Jewish church (the true Israel) certainly fled into the wilderness in the days prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and were preserved. Nor did a flood follow Mary to swallow up her enemies so that she was miraculously preserved.. But pursuers would have followed the church into the wilderness and by the power of God they were preserved.
LOL now I've heard it all. The woman in Gen 3.15 was Eve. The woman in Jer 31.22 was a faithless daughter and is called the virgin Israel. The virgin Israel is the woman who will protect her offspring.
You cannot seriously think that the double mention of 'a woman' as a term of endearment in John by Jesus would associate the woman in Rev 12 with Mary in totally different circumstances? Why should it?
Well I have already demonstrated that the man-child (the son of man) represents both Jesus and the church of true believers. The Devil and the Archangel are mighty heavenly beings, hardly comparable with a young Israelite woman. We would expect the woman to be someone outstanding in Scripture i.e. Israel. Michael was the protector of Israel. No wonder he fought.
Sorry, you fail.
"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48[/QUOTE]
You mean yours does LOL
Not at all, unless someone tries to squeeze Mary in where she doesn't belong. The Messiah came through the birth pangs of Israel
Yes and the Messiah would spring from the birth pangs of Israel (e.g. Micah 5.3).
True, so the church sprung out of Israel and in fact in the NT IS Israel.
So true and the church which is composed of all true believers was begotten out of Israel, and is Israel.
No the woman was Israel, it is her offspring who are the church of true believers.
well the woman does not represent the people of God down through the millennia. It is her offspring who do so. It counts MARY out of the reckoning. In no way did the offspring spring out of Mary. They sprang out of Israel.
Let's look at them.
The man child is clearly the equivalent of the son of man and includes both Jesus and His living church, as he does also in Daniel 7.. Both were to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron (Rev 2.27; 19.15). Both were or will be caught up to God.
Mary did not flee into the desert. She fled into Egypt (hardly a desert). However, the Jewish church (the true Israel) certainly fled into the wilderness in the days prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and were preserved. Nor did a flood follow Mary to swallow up her enemies so that she was miraculously preserved.. But pursuers would have followed the church into the wilderness and by the power of God they were preserved.
LOL now I've heard it all. The woman in Gen 3.15 was Eve. The woman in Jer 31.22 was a faithless daughter and is called the virgin Israel. The virgin Israel is the woman who will protect her offspring.
You cannot seriously think that the double mention of 'a woman' as a term of endearment in John by Jesus would associate the woman in Rev 12 with Mary in totally different circumstances? Why should it?
Well I have already demonstrated that the man-child (the son of man) represents both Jesus and the church of true believers. The Devil and the Archangel are mighty heavenly beings, hardly comparable with a young Israelite woman. We would expect the woman to be someone outstanding in Scripture i.e. Israel. Michael was the protector of Israel. No wonder he fought.
Sorry, you fail.
"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48[/QUOTE]
K
Yes they do require respect, but are they to be treated any different than anybody else that does God's will in their lives.
No because we are all called to do that, and the bible says nobody who does not do the will of God will inherit the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21).
Do we pray to them or ask them to intercede for us?
No because we have the Lord Jesus who we pray directly to to intercede for us, so there is no need to pray to somebody else because we only have one mediator between us and God. Mary is no more of a saint then anybody else who does God's will in their lives. Some just are called to do different parts within the body.....
No because we are all called to do that, and the bible says nobody who does not do the will of God will inherit the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21).
Do we pray to them or ask them to intercede for us?
No because we have the Lord Jesus who we pray directly to to intercede for us, so there is no need to pray to somebody else because we only have one mediator between us and God. Mary is no more of a saint then anybody else who does God's will in their lives. Some just are called to do different parts within the body.....
Because we are all together supporting one another in the battle on earth. And we do not expect those prayers to have special effect because of who makes them. We bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ. Thus we reveal our love for one another. We know of each other because we live among each other.
We have no grounds whatsoever for thinking that those who have gone into Heaven are aware of our activities or what we do.
To think that Mary and the saints have cognisance of all that goes on on earth and can actually hear prayers sent to them from round the world is absurd. It is to turn them into gods. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in their omnipresence and omniscience can do that.
We have no grounds whatsoever for thinking that those who have gone into Heaven are aware of our activities or what we do.
To think that Mary and the saints have cognisance of all that goes on on earth and can actually hear prayers sent to them from round the world is absurd. It is to turn them into gods. Only Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in their omnipresence and omniscience can do that.
K
We ask them to pray for us, not to mediate for us between us and God.
Because those who we ask to pray for us here on earth has to have their prayers go through the Mediator Lord Jesus Christ as well. They do not mediate directly to God for us, they just show a collective union in the body of Christ all praying for the same outcome.
If we are going to pray to somebody rather you believe they are already in heaven or still asleep in the grave what purpose does it serve when the only person you need to pray to in heaven is God with the Lord as the Mediator. We do not nor does the bible say anybody else serves as a mediator for us.
Clear this up for me please. We do pray to our heavenly Father correct? We do pray directly to God correct? The vale of the temple rent in twain allows us direct access to God the Father correct?
Yes Jesus is the Mediator of the NT and yes the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us but we do have direct access to God our heavenly Father correct? Just want to make sure I'm not off somewhere in la-la land.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes Jesus is the Mediator of the NT and yes the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us but we do have direct access to God our heavenly Father correct? Just want to make sure I'm not off somewhere in la-la land.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
D
Im having a hard time writing in the reply box to whatever code you have going on in here
Here are men referred to as a woman in travail also
John 16:21-22 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
You had referenced Gen 3:15
Paul speak of a mystery in Genesis of the man and the woman there as being Christ and the church (which are many members) not just one
He said of the two becoming one flesh (In Genesis 2:21)
Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Whereas you referred to Gen 3:15 (which is after the one Paul referred to) which says
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The same wording is found here in respects to the church (the woman) here
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.
See how that everytime I look at those references it just dont seem to fit?
I was told Mary was assumed into heaven in respects to that woman clothed in the sun part, but I just never got the part where she took off into the wilderness shprtly after she was supposedly assumed there. But even with the additional scriptures posted which Paul quotes from Genesis it isnt about Mary (a singular the woman) but rather Christ and the church (the woman, as in the many membered body) as shown in Ephes 5:32
Is Paul incorrect there? Or am I still missing it somehow?
Also, doesnt "assumed" mean "supposed"?
Because everytime I see the word "supposed" used in scripture it seems they were dead wrong in supposing anything when supposing it.
Also, did you see my post on that Luke 1:48 verse you have snipped into your post? Do you see any connections bettern the verses at all?
Thanks
K
That is what they may say, but that is not the truth for they have different saints they pray to for certain things; healing, financial, and so on. I was in the Catholic church for 5 years and left because of those falsehoods. We do not need to pray to certain people for those things, we only need to pray to God through Jesus Christ for those things.
