Netanyahu trails in polls; Senate panel probes Obama interference in Israeli election

[kennethcadwell]

kaylagrl and kennethcaldwell,

I totally agree on what you are saying about how people act. While I don't agree with your stance of Jews being God's chosen people, I always believed that it is a civil way to disagree and I also understand the concept of agreeing to disagree. Me getting heated gains nothing. I let all the scripture that I reference back up what I say and that should be enough.

*edit*
Going back rereading some of Pem's post, I agree with a lot of what he is saying but I've always been taught that delivery is 70% of a message.

The thing is though is that there are physical promises and spiritual promises, and we need to through the Spirit discern between the two. The spiritual promises do not override the physical promises until the Lord returns, as we are promised the access to the spiritual promise of the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven onto earth. But until that event the Jews are still promised the physical land of Israel we have today. If that was not to be then the Jews would have never been allowed back in 1948, and since that date they would have been destroyed by the nations that surround them. However God has restrained those nations and kept them from destroying Israel and the Jews, and He will keep restraining until He removes the Holy Spirit and lets the man of sin be revealed...........

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Well, the OT was written to the Jews, and it claims many times in many books that they were Gods chosen people. God tells the people of Israel over and over His love for them, how He will carry them and how they are the stepping stone to His will. I dont really think you could argue this.

Salvation is for all of us, first the Jew, but the greek also. Because they were the first in His plan to save mankind from their sins.

 

[jahsoul]

The thing is though is that there are physical promises and spiritual promises, and we need to through the Spirit discern between the two. The spiritual promises do not override the physical promises until the Lord returns, as we are promised the access to the spiritual promise of the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven onto earth. But until that event the Jews are still promised the physical land of Israel we have today. If that was not to be then the Jews would have never been allowed back in 1948, and since that date they would have been destroyed by the nations that surround them. However God has restrained those nations and kept them from destroying Israel and the Jews, and He will keep restraining until He removes the Holy Spirit and lets the man of sin be revealed...........

But this in turn raises the questions of (like I stated before), what is a Jew (because I haven't seen anywhere in the Bible that makes Children of Israel & Jew synonymous)? If the statement in the parenthesis holds true that they aren't synonymous, are the people inhabiting the land the former or the latter, and if they are the latter, do they actually have claim to the land? If we go by the letter of the Word, shouldn't the Samaritans also have claim to the land? Also, do we ignore the scripture regarding the reunification of the Nations, God being their banner, and being led by the house of David? So many questions linger that stops this from being an "absolute."

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Jews are the people of Israel, the descendants of Abraham.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well, the OT was written to the Jews, and it claims many times in many books that they were Gods chosen people. God tells the people of Israel over and over His love for them, how He will carry them and how they are the stepping stone to His will. I dont really think you could argue this.

Salvation is for all of us, first the Jew, but the greek also. Because they were the first in His plan to save mankind from their sins.

That and the NT states that we were grafted in by our belief in Jesus to prove the Jews to jealousy to bring them to repentance. It says when they come to believe they will be grafted back in, as they were the natural branches. We were not put in place of them, just grafted in to receive His grace.

 

[jahsoul]

Jews are the people of Israel, the descendants of Abraham.

Are you 100% sure about that, because scripture doesn't state that Israel = Jew.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Jeremiah 31:1-4

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Isaiah 44:21

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Isaiah 43:1-3

Haha okay Ill stop spamming now

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Isaiah 41:8, it literally states the descendants of Abraham.

Okay, haha last one I promise

 

[jahsoul]

Jeremiah 31:1-4

Isaiah 44:21

Isaiah 43:1-3

Haha okay Ill stop spamming now

Didn't see Jew in either one of those scriptures. Truth be told, you'll be hard pressed to find prophecy that has Jew, Jews, or Jewish. Shoot, majority of it's use in the OT is in the book of Esther.

 

[kennethcadwell]

But this in turn raises the questions of (like I stated before), what is a Jew (because I haven't seen anywhere in the Bible that makes Children of Israel & Jew synonymous)? If the statement in the parenthesis holds true that they aren't synonymous, are the people inhabiting the land the former or the latter, and if they are the latter, do they actually have claim to the land? If we go by the letter of the Word, shouldn't the Samaritans also have claim to the land? Also, do we ignore the scripture regarding the reunification of the Nations, God being their banner, and being led by the house of David? So many questions linger that stops this from being an "absolute."

Once again though you have the physical Jew and you have the Spiritual Jew.
The Spiritual Jew that one becomes by their belief in the Lord does not do away with the physical Jew in the flesh, as those physical Jews when they believe will have salvation just as we Gentiles who believe have. The spiritual promise of salvation (eternal life) in the New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Until that takes place again the physical promises still apply, and the promise as well applies that those who bless them will be blessed and those who curse them will be cursed.
Do you not think that in 1948 when the Jews were called back to the Land, that all of those who flocked there and are still going there to this day are not called by God to do so. Once again to say there are no real Jews living there is interjecting man's theology over God's way. Revelation clearly says the man of sin is given the authority to go against the saints in Israel and over come them. This can not happen if as you and a few replacement theologists state that real Jews either don't exist any more, or do not live there......

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Didn't see Jew in either one of those scriptures. Truth be told, you'll be hard pressed to find prophecy that has Jew, Jews, or Jewish. Shoot, majority of it's use in the OT is in the book of Esther.

The OT was written for the people of Israel, the nation that existed there, created by God himself. He gave that book to the Jews living in Israel at that time, in order to create His path that would eventually be spread across the world. Why would He say "You, Israel" to the people of Israel, His first followers, but mean something else? The only other point Ive really seen has been like "But maybe He wasnt talking to Israel though". Thats not really substantial. Historically, the book was given to the people of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Gods chosen people to build His church on, and there is nothing that goes against that anywhere in the bible at all.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

That wasnt prophecy in those words I posted, it did not talk about a new Israel or any of these things. It was God comforting His people, who lived in the nation He created, who He was using as His stepping stone to being spread across all of the earth.

 

[jahsoul]

Once again though you have the physical Jew and you have the Spiritual Jew.
The Spiritual Jew that one becomes by their belief in the Lord does not do away with the physical Jew in the flesh, as those physical Jews when they believe will have salvation just as we Gentiles who believe have. The spiritual promise of salvation (eternal life) in the New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Until that takes place again the physical promises still apply, and the promise as well applies that those who bless them will be blessed and those who curse them will be cursed.
Do you not think that in 1948 when the Jews were called back to the Land, that all of those who flocked there and are still going there to this day are not called by God to do so. Once again to say there are no real Jews living there is interjecting man's theology over God's way. Revelation clearly says the man of sin is given the authority to go against the saints in Israel and over come them. This can not happen if as you and a few replacement theologists state that real Jews either don't exist any more, or do not live there......

But that had nothing to do with my questions; the questions that were in my post were directly tied to OT, speaking of nothing "physical" or "spiritual." Is a Jewish convert entitled to the physical promises? What makes one a physical Jew and how is that synonymous of Children of Israel? Also, in Genesis 12 was God talking to Abraham or to Israel, considering that everytime he spoke with Abram/Abraham, he was pretty specific regarding the use of pronouns, but I digress.

I'm not trying to get into a debate regarding replacement theology because Romans 11 teaches integration. Neither you nor I know if the people who inhabit the land are truly descendants of Jacob, and most are just going on a hope, but we have nothing to go on other than them calling themselves Jews. That's not interjecting man's theology at all. If you want to see that, skim through Scoffield's notes.

Revelation also speaks of " the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

 

[kennethcadwell]

But that had nothing to do with my questions; the questions that were in my post were directly tied to OT, speaking of nothing "physical" or "spiritual." Is a Jewish convert entitled to the physical promises? What makes one a physical Jew and how is that synonymous of Children of Israel? Also, in Genesis 12 was God talking to Abraham or to Israel, considering that everytime he spoke with Abram/Abraham, he was pretty specific regarding the use of pronouns, but I digress.

I'm not trying to get into a debate regarding replacement theology because Romans 11 teaches integration. Neither you nor I know if the people who inhabit the land are truly descendants of Jacob, and most are just going on a hope, but we have nothing to go on other than them calling themselves Jews. That's not interjecting man's theology at all. If you want to see that, skim through Scoffield's notes.

Revelation also speaks of " the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

Yes I know Revelation says that and it is referring to those who believe they are entitled to the same physical promises that was given to the Jews. We are spiritual Jews by belief, and only the physical Jews still are given the promise of the physical land of Israel. We are not entitled to nothing except salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ and to have access to the New Jerusalem. We can not intermingle the physical promises with the spiritual promises, nor are we to have the spiritual override the physical. We are to bless Israel rather you believe it is true Jews living there or not........

 

[kaylagrl]

But this take you down a couple of avenues where questions have to be answered;

-Is Children/House of Israel & Jew synonymous in the Bible? (I haven't seen anything to suggest that)
-Who or what is a Jew?
-Who is the Israel of God?



Just a few..

Ok say they aren't Gods chosen people. These peoples,even if you dont even believe
they are real Jews" have been kicked out of over 100 countries.They have been persecuted,they have been murdered and survived holocaust. Do you not think they deserve a homeland?

 

[jahsoul]

The OT was written for the people of Israel, the nation that existed there, created by God himself. He gave that book to the Jews living in Israel at that time, in order to create His path that would eventually be spread across the world. Why would He say "You, Israel" to the people of Israel, His first followers, but mean something else? The only other point Ive really seen has been like "But maybe He wasnt talking to Israel though". Thats not really substantial. Historically, the book was given to the people of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Gods chosen people to build His church on, and there is nothing that goes against that anywhere in the bible at all.

That wasnt prophecy in those words I posted, it did not talk about a new Israel or any of these things. It was God comforting His people, who lived in the nation He created, who He was using as His stepping stone to being spread across all of the earth.

I know it wasn't prophecy; I was just stating that in general.

But to your first post, if God gave it to Israel and then the Jews who were living in Israel, who are the Jews? How come the term "Jew" was not used before the separation of the Kingdom. If memory serves me correctly, those who lived in Judah or who were his descendants were called Judahites. But to the point, God was always specific in who his words were pointed at; he used physical separated kingdoms of Israel and Judah, Children or House of Israel, Jerusalem (which was in Judah and not Jerusalem at the time of the scripture). Like I said, scripture can't be used to make the absolute assertion that Children of Israel = Jew because it just isn't there, and because of that, it can't be absolute that those who called themselves Jews are indeed entitled to the promise.

 

[jahsoul]

Ok say they aren't Gods chosen people. These peoples,even if you dont even believe
they are real Jews" have been kicked out of over 100 countries.They have been persecuted,they have been murdered and survived holocaust. Do you not think they deserve a homeland?

I've said nothing about deserving a homeland or protective themselves (although I don't think they should use $5 billion US Tax Dollars and preemptive war to do that).

Also regarding you questions, I can name others who have been kicked out of countries, persecuted, murdered and survived the holocaust (never read anything about gypsies getting a homeland, but I digress). And also, I've never used the phrase "real" or "true" Jew but always asked the questions, where in scripture does it say that the Children of Israel equal Jew or where they were used synonymously and what makes a Jew a Jew?

 

[jahsoul]

Yes I know Revelation says that and it is referring to those who believe they are entitled to the same physical promises that was given to the Jews. We are spiritual Jews by belief, and only the physical Jews still are given the promise of the physical land of Israel. We are not entitled to nothing except salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ and to have access to the New Jerusalem. We can not intermingle the physical promises with the spiritual promises, nor are we to have the spiritual override the physical. We are to bless Israel rather you believe it is true Jews living there or not........

But that's still not what I'm saying. I'm asking about those who have converted to Jewry and are they entitled to the physical promises. What promises are for those that became Jews in Esther 8? I'm not talking about what overrides one or the other but when it comes to these promises, do we recognize the Children of Israel (who is specifically stated) or Jews?