A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[MarcR]

I presume that there are people of integrity on this thread who take an opposing position; but my appeal is unanswered.
I must therefore assume that you are reluctant to take a position. I therefore reluctantly appeal to the moderator to take a position

 

[kaylagrl]

This must be from the same surreal world as a lot of Hollywood films and children's cartoons, were women posses almost supernatural powers to fight and defeat male opponents.

Not really.I had a female friend who could match any man in strength.Shes over six foot tall and built like a brick house.Our friendship came to an end but she was a carny,one who works carnivals,and had to set up tents and the like.She asked me to help her move a trailer and I pulled my back out and couldnt move for weeks.Well that tells you what shape Im in.It depends on the woman and her build.

 

[kaylagrl]

I presume that there are people of integrity on this thread who take an opposing position; but my appeal is unanswered.
I must therefore assume that you are reluctant to take a position. I therefore reluctantly appeal to the moderator to take a position

Check your mail.I have written to you.

 

[JackH]

I presume that there are people of integrity on this thread who take an opposing position; but my appeal is unanswered.
I must therefore assume that you are reluctant to take a position. I therefore reluctantly appeal to the moderator to take a position

I suggest you read the sticky thread entitled "When you have concerns about vibrant and heated discussions, please read this."

Now, today you have accused me of willful illiteracy and intentionally misstating other people's position.

If you are going to keep on obsessing about this, please cite specific examples of what you are talking about. Quote exactly what I said and indicate how exactly I misstated someone's position.

If you can't, I would suggest that you are bearing false witness.

That's a sin you know.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

You also said in your post:

"There was not a female pastor in any first-century New Testament church."

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Yes. Prove me wrong.

By the way, I have a life. Last client comes in in 12 minutes, wife will be home from her job as a NICU nurse in 2 hours, so don't expect me to look in before tomorrow.

 

[MarcR]

I suggest you read the sticky thread entitled "When you have concerns about vibrant and heated discussions, please read this."

Now, today you have accused me of willful illiteracy and intentionally misstating other people's position.

If you are going to keep on obsessing about this, please cite specific examples of what you are talking about. Quote exactly what I said and indicate how exactly I misstated someone's position.

If you can't, I would suggest that you are bearing false witness.

That's a sin you know.

I cited multiple examples in response to which you accused me of ad homonym attack.

I have appealed to the moderator to look into the feud between us.

 

[JackH]

Yes. Prove me wrong.

By the way, I have a life. Last client comes in in 12 minutes, wife will be home from her job as a NICU nurse in 2 hours, so don't expect me to look in before tomorrow.

Hey, you are the one who jumped on me about not getting back to you within two hours.

You made the statement that "There was not a female pastor in any first-century church."

You prove it. Prove that it is an absolute certainly that statement is correct.

But I'll get you started.

Who is John speaking to in the beginning of II John?

 

[JackH]

I cited multiple examples in response to which you accused me of ad homonym attack.

I have appealed to the moderator to look into the feud between us.

None of those examples provided any evidence whatsoever that I intentionally misstated someone's position.

Feud?

What is this, the Hatfield's and McCoy's?

Get real.

 

[MarcR]

None of those examples provided any evidence whatsoever that I intentionally misstated someone's position.

Feud?

What is this, the Hatfield's and McCoy's?

Get real.

Presumably the moderator will look into both our conduct and make a determination.

I don't care to continue this discussion with you!

 

[JackH]

Presumably the moderator will look into both our conduct and make a determination.

I don't care to continue this discussion with you!

Then quit quoting me and mentioning me in your posts.

And then you complain when I respond.

Hello.

 

[keepitsimple]

An appeal to people of integrity on the opposing side of the question.

Please tell me: Do you see Jack misstating other people's position, or am I imagining it.

If you don't want to make a public statement PM me.

I see Jack as asking people opposed to his view to "cut to the chase and deal with the question of whether or not female pastors are in need of repentance for being so" ... since it is contrary (according to the naysayers) to the Word of God. Honestly Marc, I think it is a fair question. Because depending on one's view on this matter, the question Jack seeks an answer to is ultimately where the rubber meets the road on this matter, so to speak. One cannot claim that scripture instructs women not to do something ... and then dismiss any repercussion for them not obeying. If this is what they believe, then surely they must believe also that these women pastors are sinning by acting contrary to the Word. Or perhaps no ? And if no, then how so ?

 

[presidente]

Not really.I had a female friend who could match any man in strength.Shes over six foot tall and built like a brick house.Our friendship came to an end but she was a carny,one who works carnivals,and had to set up tents and the like.She asked me to help her move a trailer and I pulled my back out and couldnt move for weeks.Well that tells you what shape Im in.It depends on the woman and her build.

There are some women on the far right of the bell curve. My guess is she doesn't look like the woman in the picture winning the arm wrestling contest.

I went to church with this pretty young woman. I had no idea at first that she was some kind of weight lifting champion until someone said it. She didn't have really big arms. So looks can be deceptive. After someone mentioned it, I thought, well yeah, she does look fit. But she didn't look like a body builder, just normal fit.

In the movies, though, it's kind of ridiculous sometimes. The female hero or villain knocks out the big strong men many times her size. Men do that, too, and it's ridiculous, but even more so with women characters because the contrast is greater. I wonder if it gives girls a false sense of security to go out and fight bad guys and end up dead. If nothing else, having people of different genders hit each other on the screen is bad for good social etiquette.

 

[MarcR]

I see Jack as asking people opposed to his view to "cut to the chase and deal with the question of whether or not female pastors are in need of repentance for being so" ... since it is contrary (according to the naysayers) to the Word of God. Honestly Marc, I think it is a fair question. Because depending on one's view on this matter, the question Jack seeks an answer to is ultimately where the rubber meets the road on this matter, so to speak. One cannot claim that scripture instructs women not to do something ... and then dismiss any repercussion for them not obeying. If this is what they believe, then surely they must believe also that these women pastors are sinning by acting contrary to the Word. Or perhaps no ? And if no, then how so ?

Thank you for your response

 

[MarcR]

I see Jack as asking people opposed to his view to "cut to the chase and deal with the question of whether or not female pastors are in need of repentance for being so" ... since it is contrary (according to the naysayers) to the Word of God. Honestly Marc, I think it is a fair question. Because depending on one's view on this matter, the question Jack seeks an answer to is ultimately where the rubber meets the road on this matter, so to speak. One cannot claim that scripture instructs women not to do something ... and then dismiss any repercussion for them not obeying. If this is what they believe, then surely they must believe also that these women pastors are sinning by acting contrary to the Word. Or perhaps no ? And if no, then how so ?

From my point of view, I have a responsibility to share my view of what the Scripture says; but I believe that it would be arrogant of me to presume that because I interpret a scripture a certain way precludes legitimate disagreement.

If I believe that something is wrong; then I would be sinning to do it. However if someone else is not yet persuaded that the same thing is wrong; then, as I understand the relevant Scripture, they are at liberty to do it until the Holy Spirit convicts them that it is indeed wrong. Believing that something is wrong obliges me to say so; but does not oblige me to take upom myself the role of the Holy Spirit in trying to convict another believer of Sin. If I were persuaded of my own infalability; I would not be worthy of anyone's attention.

 

[kaylagrl]

There are some women on the far right of the bell curve. My guess is she doesn't look like the woman in the picture winning the arm wrestling contest.

I went to church with this pretty young woman. I had no idea at first that she was some kind of weight lifting champion until someone said it. She didn't have really big arms. So looks can be deceptive. After someone mentioned it, I thought, well yeah, she does look fit. But she didn't look like a body builder, just normal fit.

In the movies, though, it's kind of ridiculous sometimes. The female hero or villain knocks out the big strong men many times her size. Men do that, too, and it's ridiculous, but even more so with women characters because the contrast is greater. I wonder if it gives girls a false sense of security to go out and fight bad guys and end up dead. If nothing else, having people of different genders hit each other on the screen is bad for good social etiquette.

No my friend honestly looked more manly than the woman in the picture.She acted more manly too.I have to confess Im 5ft nothing and my hubby is 6'4 so he definitely has the strength in the relationship. I like em tall. lol Of course I know his weakness,cheesecake, so thats the trick. Ahhh that must be the Eve coming out in me.

I do agree lately Ive seen a lot of hitting and slapping in the movies and I dont like it.I see these teens that get on youtube and beat someone near to death. I have two nephews that are great kids but as soon as they see kids hitting each other on tv they do the same thing. I tell them "we do not do that,even in play". Too much violence in movies and on tv these days.

 

[keepitsimple]

From my point of view, I have a responsibility to share my view of what the Scripture says; but I believe that it would be arrogant of me to presume that because I interpret a scripture a certain way precludes legitimate disagreement.

If I believe that something is wrong; then I would be sinning to do it. However if someone else is not yet persuaded that the same thing is wrong; then, as I understand the relevant Scripture, they are at liberty to do it until the Holy Spirit convicts them that it is indeed wrong. Believing that something is wrong obliges me to say so; but does not oblige me to take upom myself the role of the Holy Spirit in trying to convict another believer of Sin. If I were persuaded of my own infalability; I would not be worthy of anyone's attention.

Below were my words in post #334. The problem with stating one's position (definitively) on the matter of pastor gender is that one also is obliged when answering to condemn the same ... from either perspective. And not over clear matters of what is sin and what is not, as we commonly know it. But on a matter of doctrine ... and pertaining to women who's desire it is to serve our Lord and spread the gospel. Not an easy topic for discussion, no doubt. God bless you in Christ Marc

"But I will remain open to the real possibility that I could very well be missing out on a truth that has been sabotaged by those with sinister cause. Christ spoke of many things to those religious leaders of His day of things thought to be understood in their own minds ... yet missing the mark entirely. Is it lawful to work on the Sabbath, for example ? Perhaps some paralleled principles to be gleaned ... perhaps not ? But I will look at it in depth somewhat ... at least owing to the possibility that I might have something yet to learn."

 

[phil112]

I see Jack as asking people opposed to his view to "cut to the chase and deal with the question of whether or not female pastors are in need of repentance for being so" ... since it is contrary (according to the naysayers) to the Word of God. Honestly Marc, I think it is a fair question. ......................

Not a fair question at all, if that's what he wants. Judgement of that kind belongs only to Christ. Any of us can judge whether or not someone is being obedient to the word - we are told to do that. But to say someone needs to repent is to infer we have knowledge of them that only Christ has.
I'll tell you how it is with me - when/if I do something contrary to the word I repent because I know better. It certainly matters what kind of knowledge and understanding a person has.
However, when the truth is made clear, there obviously becomes a conflict with where they are and what the bible says.

Do they need to repent? You, and them, will have to ask God about that. No man is allowed to stand in judgement of another's eternal destiny.

Are they being disobedient to the word? Anyone preaching from a pulpit is told they must be able to rebuke if necessary, and that is absolutely not something a woman is to do to a brother. If she is the main preacher at church she is in disobedience to the word of God.

Should a woman never preach? That is difficult. One of the best sermons I have heard came from a woman. But she was a guest preacher and she had no parsonage. That is an area I don't delve into as I believe that an argument can be made for a woman having a message.
That is a possible exception, certainly not a rule, and certainly I've only heard the one sermon when a woman had anything I wanted to hear from the pulpit.

 

[keepitsimple]

Not a fair question at all, if that's what he wants. Judgement of that kind belongs only to Christ. Any of us can judge whether or not someone is being obedient to the word - we are told to do that. But to say someone needs to repent is to infer we have knowledge of them that only Christ has.
I'll tell you how it is with me - when/if I do something contrary to the word I repent because I know better. It certainly matters what kind of knowledge and understanding a person has.
However, when the truth is made clear, there obviously becomes a conflict with where they are and what the bible says.

Do they need to repent? You, and them, will have to ask God about that. No man is allowed to stand in judgement of another's eternal destiny.

Are they being disobedient to the word? Anyone preaching from a pulpit is told they must be able to rebuke if necessary, and that is absolutely not something a woman is to do to a brother. If she is the main preacher at church she is in disobedience to the word of God.

Should a woman never preach? That is difficult. One of the best sermons I have heard came from a woman. But she was a guest preacher and she had no parsonage. That is an area I don't delve into as I believe that an argument can be made for a woman having a message.
That is a possible exception, certainly not a rule, and certainly I've only heard the one sermon when a woman had anything I wanted to hear from the pulpit.

I can respect this answer Phil. But can I ask you what you mean by saying that a woman is never to rebuke a brother ? Is it acceptable for a wife to question and/or correct her husband on a biblical matter, for example ? Just looking for clarification of your context and meaning of the word rebuke ?

 

[JackH]

I see Jack as asking people opposed to his view to "cut to the chase and deal with the question of whether or not female pastors are in need of repentance for being so" ... since it is contrary (according to the naysayers) to the Word of God. Honestly Marc, I think it is a fair question. Because depending on one's view on this matter, the question Jack seeks an answer to is ultimately where the rubber meets the road on this matter, so to speak. One cannot claim that scripture instructs women not to do something ... and then dismiss any repercussion for them not obeying. If this is what they believe, then surely they must believe also that these women pastors are sinning by acting contrary to the Word. Or perhaps no ? And if no, then how so ?

Thank you.

There has been a whole lot of talking around these subjects in this thread.

And the "answers" given by some on this thread are all over the place.

My answer is simple. A woman can do anything a man can do.

With respect to those who would have us discriminate against women, who has the right answer?

Nobody that I can see.

 

[Jasher]

Jasher, Most of those quotes are rather extreme, and more extreme than the Bible. God made male and female in His image and created woman before the fall, so females should not be regarded as deformed men.

If Tertullian let men have it for Adam's sin like he did with women, then his quotes may not be so bad in context. I don't know the context. I notice many of your quotes don't have a real source. 'Church father' is not really citing a source.

If I combed through, I might find a quote or two I agree with. Aristotle said a wife should be as obedient as a slave. It reminds me of I Peter 2-3.

In general, though, the Bible isn't as harsh as these quotes. And so there is no reason these harsh quotes should lead believers to depart from Biblical teaching on the matter.

And as I have pointed out, the verse about Anronius and Junia is ambiguous as to whether they were non-apostles the apostles considered to be notable or whether they were notable apostles. You'd have to have some actual proof of female leadership in the earliest centuries of the church. Women being on a mosaic in a basilica in the time of Theodora is not proof of anything related to this thread.

Harsh? These are quotes. I have done nothing more than to collect these "quotes" over a period of about 15 years as the abuse of women is one of my pet peeves. I quit collecting them because I thought I had enough to make a point. Had I continued the list would probably be twice as long.

If you are one to quote the "Church Fathers" even old John Chrysostom admitted that Junia was a women. And he was basically anti female as you see from the quotes above.

In commenting on Romans 16:7, John Chrysostom (347-407) states:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia...who are outstanding among the apostles: To be an apostle is something great! But to be outstanding among the apostles - just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle."


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