Catholic Heresy (for the record)

notuptome · Feb 10, 2015

I will not post all of what you write, because I hope this is a civilised conversation ,and most of what you wrote is inflammtory. .

So analyzing another anti catholic myth at the heart of the condescending nonsesne

We do nothing of the sort. So Keep to the facts.

Here the references. And it matters not whether you agree with our interpretation of verses (which are largely self explanatory so hardly up for debate) - what matters is they are based in scripture..

We honour Mary as elizabeth did 'how am I honoured that the "mother of my lord" should come to me' Luke 1:43
Noone can doubt she was a pretty special lady "blessed amongst women" Luke 1:42

Who else was deemed "full of grace, the lord is with you"? Luke 1:28 and who else was told "all generations will call you blessed" Luke 1:48 - that is the highest honour I am aware of that the bible bestows on any person! She is clearly special as well, as the woman of revelations 12:1

So to the issue.
Everyone asks others to pray for them, I hope!
So where we differ from others is we ask mary to pray for us,
because we are told in revelations that the prayers of saints reach heaven revelations 8:4. We are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses hebrews 12:1 We also know from the miracle at Cana john 2:3 that can intercede with Jesus, and he does what she asks on occasion, although was told when she asked him for his help to "wait for his time to come" sensibly interpreted as when he is resurrected!!

In addtion to prophecy. The bible clearly shows direct mirrors of the old testament and the new . Very important to understand the old in order to understand the new.
So We know that jesus was a davidic king (too many references to bother posting) including for example aligning to solomon and david directly by riding on a donkey 1king 1-33 so prophesied in zechariah

The davidic references are very important.

The mother of davidic king has influence, as the old testament shows, see how bathsheba is presented by solomon in 1 kings 2:19-22 "ask on my mother for I will not deny the" -

See also in those passages how the mother of a davidic king is also given the title "QUEEN" which is purely honorary and she only has the power of advocacy, but of enough respect to earn her both a throne and solomon bows to her, but it does not usurp his authority as king. The names of a dozen mothers of davidic kings make it into the bible, why else except because they are important and have influence? So calling her queen is just an honorary title as mother of a davidic king. It does not make her a ruler or coequal.

So all we do is accept that as saint and mother of a davidic king and mother of jesus she has influence.
So we ask her to pray for us and that is all. Asking her to do that does not make her a god, any more than asking you to pray for me, makes you a god!
And nowhere in catechism are we told that to do so is part of salvation!

Love it or hate it, it is biblically based. I hope that explains a little of the background to others.

The rest of what you write is just fanciful nonsense, born of too many (and insulting) myths repeated..

We are not idolaters any more than you are when you look at a photograph of your family, you have it there as a reminder of them! You do not worship it, I hope!

So I say again, judge us on what we actually believe which is nothing like the myths.

So it's just a myth when I enter a Catholic church and see a statue of Mary standing on the globe of the earth with seven stars that the Catholic church is just esteeming her as blessed? Boy did I get the wrong impression about that.

Praying to Mary or any of the deceased saints. The scripture teaches that there is but one intercessor and that is Christ. 1 Tim 2:5 We are told to come boldly to into the presence of God according to Hebrews. Isaiah 59 speaks of one intercessor who is Christ.

Does the Catholic church teach that receiving the sacraments are required to enter heaven? Baptism, confirmation, the communion, confession, and last rights to name but a few. Is this not how you teach that grace is received?

Having a bible in the building does not make a church or it's doctrines biblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jeff_56 · Feb 10, 2015

footnote for those who didn't read the OP.
as i understand the OP, and all the comments and posts of the ekklesia in christ jesus, this thread is not to determine whether or not rcc roman catholicism is pagan or not.

it is pagan. it is heresy. it is false, it is anti-christ
and
no amount of discussion, posts, miracles, grace , love, peace, or scripture can ever change that it is heresy, pagan and false in its entirety.

for those whom yahweh has hardened, just in case they might want to seek out and find the truth,
there's been over 1000 times 1000 proofs since martin luther, and uncountable proofs before him, that rcc is heresy. period.

nothing that yahweh, yahshua, torah or scripture can say can change that,
and
obviously all the more no one in heaven nor on earth can change rcc heresy into truth.
,
BUT there are still roman adherents who by sheer grace are brought into the light of Christ Jesus, forgiven of their sin and made whole ! GLORY BE TO YAHWEH IN YAHSHUA FOREVER ! ALL THE ANGELS REJOICE AT THAT TIME !

so we continue to pray as Yahweh allows us to, that catholics may turn to God in Jesus and be saved, instead of dying and being resurrected in torture and shame forever dead in their sin.

AV8TOR56 · Feb 10, 2015

I grew up Catholic, then was born again 30 years ago. I agree with RoboOp, but here's my question:

Since most of my family is still Catholic, even though I've tried, they don't even want to discuss religion, even though they try to "add to Jesus", they still believe in Him as Savior. So short question is: Are they still going to go to heaven?

Your thoughts please

KenAllan · Feb 10, 2015

The problem is you Catholics do not just ask Mary to pray for you. This a prayer to Mary the Catholic Church has on the Web.

Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

We are to give 100% of ourselves to God, not 99% or less. To give anything of yourself to Mary takes away that what you are to give to God!

Matthew 22:37 (NASB77)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] And He said to him, "' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

How can you give all your Heart to God and to Mary? You CANNOT!

This is why i say the Catholics are Idolaters because they do worship Mary as their God.

Willie-T · Feb 10, 2015

AV8TOR56 said:

When you take all the extras most denominations add, or even subtract, I might think that same question could apply to all of us.

Sure hope God is scoring it some other way...... otherwise, we are ALL probably wrong.

notuptome · Feb 10, 2015

AV8TOR56 said:

Outstanding question and one we all endeavor to answer. What Jesus must we believe in so that we are saved? Every religion in the world knows of Jesus just like the know of the president. If we go to the white house and knock on the door and the president answers we will know him. The issue is weather he will know us. The same with Jesus. There is not a better known name on the planet but we must be known of Him if we are to be saved.

A saving knowledge of Christ is based on a personal experience with Christ. We meet at the foot of His cross and He receives us. God is never too busy to meet with a sinner about his sin. God always has time for us.

Romans 10:9-10 are verses worthy of study in relation to this topic.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

AV8TOR56 · Feb 10, 2015

Good point Willie-t thanks...

AV8TOR56 · Feb 10, 2015

Thanks Notuptome,

I agree, to me Matthew 7 is one of the scariest parts in the Bible.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

notuptome · Feb 10, 2015

AV8TOR56 said:

That and where King Agrippa says almost thou persuadest me. Right up to the point of believing and just could not receive. Acts 26:28

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jeff_56 · Feb 10, 2015

AV8TOR56 said:

since you agree with scripture, and therein with RoboOp, that rcc catholicism is heresy - then are your family really rcc ?? who do they trust? yahweh says if they trust the pope, he curses them. if they trust the priest for salvation, he curses them. if they trust any man/flesh , he curses them. (take time to find this in scripture - it never changes).

if they trust jesus, the pope doesn't know yet about it. the pope won't allows anyone to remain roman catholic if they won't put their trust in the pope. this has been true for generations..

and that's why rcc catholicism is heresy. they put their trust, and they teach others to trust, demons.

if someone trusts in jesus, and not in demons, then they are saved. like the widow who put her 2 coins in the collection. jesus did not accuse her or blame her for going to the place where the religious leaders were seeking his death.
so jesus would not blame "a widow" of faith for going to a place of heretics today.

remember the leaders who rejected jesus and sought his death, later drove away the followers of jesus.
rome does the same thing - if someone gets immersed in yahshua, believes in him and trusts him for salvation,
rome will kick them out or even have them executed ---- just like they did to martin luther and those who were saved after him, and others all around the world who got saved in spite of the deception of their demonic doctrines.

trusting and relying on jesus is the key. not the building someone goes to. someone can go for a lifetime into a catholic building and never ever know the truth of their doctrines, or even what they are or where they come from (satan).

if they are trusting Jesus, Yahweh be praised, and Yahweh williing, they are saved.

Jeff_56 · Feb 10, 2015

well, yes, God's thinking and God's ways are high above our ways.

and yes, everyone who disagrees with Him is wrong - that's true simply by definition.

hoping He will adjust to fit your ideas won't work at all, nor help anyone.

it is still true that whoever trusts in Jesus and relies on Him, Yahweh willing and delighted , is saved,

and whoever trusts in heresy is dmmd. God doesn't make exceptions. but He certainly gives everyone a chance to trust Jesus.

just like the example of king agrippa . he had a chance, and rejected Jesus.

Willie-T said:

mikeuk · Feb 11, 2015

AV8TOR56 said:

Agree with RoboOp on what AV8TOR?
The anecdote about "Mary Saves" which you would know, if you had studied your faith that it simply is not so, and not a tenet of catholicism. Or that "mother of god" is not scriptural, despite the fact that Elizabeth honours mary in that way!

I came into RCC from outside and discovered that many cradle catholics had never taken the time and trouble to find out what their faith was and what it teaches! They were given a gift, and did not take the time to open it. Shame on them.
I got far more answers from the protestant and evangelical theologians who came to RCC than I did from cradle catholics.

I am happy to hear criticism of catholicism on what it actually believes, but not on the myths, or what bad people have done contrary to the faith. Out of curiosity what "act" and what did you say, that you think made you now born again that you had not already done as a catholic previously? Born again of water and spirit has specific interpretation in the catechism. Both are done in catholicism in that context.

Jeff_56 said:

Ignoring the rest of your usual rant, for the second time of asking, please point out the bible verse that uses those expressions? If not admit you made them up.
And as for your last post, I suggest you find out something about catholicism before criticise it. You appear to know nothing about it.

KenAllan said:

That prayer is not based in the catechism. What some who catholics do, does not define catholicism, any more that what westboro baptist church does defines baptist churches! I would not use it, nor am I obliged to. Not all sites that associate with catholicism are sound catholic doctrine. Obviously.

The catechism and other documents are clear.
There is one intercessor before God which is christ- many references.

2634 .... as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men,
970 "Mary......in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ,

But that does not devalue intercessory prayer. To pray for others, or request they pray for you.
Nor does it alter the special relationship Mary has with Jesus and power of advocacy to him.
Nor does it alter the statements in revelations that the prayers of saints reach heaven, or the potency of prayers of saints.
Nor does it alter her status amongs the saints. Who else was deemed "full of grace, the lord was with her, blessed amongst women"
So we assume her prayers are more potent than ours.

In the liturgy of a standard mass, there are two references only to mary, and both are asking her , (and the rest of the saints and congregation) to pray for us

What some catholics do, does not define catholic belief. The catechism does. Judge it on that.

notuptome said:

I cannot see what you refer, but it sounds as though the statue was a fair representation of the lady of revelations 12:1 - which case it will have been 12 stars, presumably 5 out of sight behind.

I refer my previous comments on intercession, indeed the clear catechism statement there is one mediator, and the request for others to pray for us, is not only universal amongst christians, but does not alter that.

Anyway, I have very limited time. Not sure when I will be back.

I repeat my main thesis on here.

Criticise catholicsm for what it actually believes, expressed in catholicism and liturgy, not what some catholics do, even worse some of the anticatholic myths.
Sadly many cradle catholics have got the wrong end of the stick, and they are not a good advert for it, or a reliable source of information.

Jeff_56 · Feb 11, 2015

for you, nothing. it is sufficient that RoboOp and all the admins recognize catholicism as heresy.
your rejection of truth also makes it impossible for god himself to help you. if he gives a word for you, anything at all, i will tell you, but only then. if he does not, i will not. you have rejected truth for so long, only god knows if you might ever seek the truth again. i pray that you do.

oh, btw, martin luther and over a hundred or so other reformers answered your questions long ago - if you sought the truth, you might already know this and would not be trapped in heresy and lies. like jesus says, if you would not listen to those who came before speaking the truth, you will not listen now, even if someone is raised from the dead to tell you.

mikeuk · Feb 11, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

I thought the new testament was your authority, not the admins of any website, and I am sure they would not claim authority for themselves!.
Now that would be a strange form of christianity! Not that I think the they have anything in common, but Mormons and JWs have been misled by trust in authorit in a recent person too!

Perhaps you should learn about some of those who you purport to support:

Quote luther

"I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted . . . It is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better."

Martin Luther, Letter to Pope Leo X
January 6, 1519"

He did not want a new church in his name, and certainly would be appalled at some of the recent liberties Lutherans have taken.
If he never approved of a schism, he cannot have believed catholicism itself was the problem, only some of what its members practiced!

Luther objected and rightly so, to such as selling indulgencies, and wanted some practices to change. He still (for example) honoured the blessed mother, and the presence of our lord in communion, he only objected to the assumption of the process by how it occurs, not the fact of it. And so on.

Confine yourself to criticising what RCC teaches in the catechism, say nothing at all until you have studied that! You are way off piste on some assumptions.

Jeff_56 · Feb 11, 2015

since you have no argument in truth, you must of course defend with lies and distractions, in line with the heresy you trust in(apparently).
that's as usual, so far. nothing unexpected.
i'm waiting long-suffering to see some inkling, some little sign of life, some any little indication that you want to know the truth.... i
don''t expect to see it, ever. but i don't expect not to either. it rests with God (your future).

who knows, you may be hit by lightning just to have your eyes opened, if God desires to show mercy to you.

Jeff_56 · Feb 11, 2015

p.s. i don't 'criticise' anything about the heresy. i just expose it as others moved by God have done for a long, long, long time (ever since before it started actually)....

and as for the Scripture, there's over dozens or maybe hundreds of posts by others that have clearly shown where the abomination is and has always been opposed to God's Word(exposing the heresy you try without any truth to defend, it cannot be defended).
if you don't listen to them, you won't listen to me. the Scripture is the same, unchanged.

notuptome · Feb 11, 2015

mikeuk said:

Might have been twelve stars but the woman in Rev 12 is not Mary.

The biblical injunction is to pray for others but not as an intermediary but as a co-laborer. Each person who knows the Lord has the same access to the Lord. One is not preferred over another as you suggest with this doctrine. Persons who are deceased no longer have contact with persons of this world. Again there is a biblical injunction not to consult with familiar spirits. Another definition for the practice is witchcraft and draws upon demons for its power.

Even more sadly many cradle Catholics would have rejected Romanism from the start if they had received biblical teaching and were offered a choice.

Obtaining reliable information and determining what Romanism actually teaches is about as difficult as nailing Jello to the wall. Hence the flaw in your main thesis. Romanism cannot define its own position from the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Feb 11, 2015

Are the sacraments necessary to obtain eternal life in the Roman Catholic church? Are the sacraments considered a means of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

KenAllan · Feb 11, 2015

Its a shame the Catholics put more authority in the teachings of the Catholic Church and less authority in the teachings of the Holy Spirit who did write the Bible for us to read and study.

Like i said before its a waste of time to debate or argue with the Catholics because they are walking in darkness and cannot understand what The Holy Spirit is saying in the Scriptures.

We need to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the Catholics.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB77)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, " BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Galatians 1:6-9 (NASB77)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

The Catholics need to return to the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and toss away all their teachings from evil men who have deceived them into following Idols like Mary.

mikeuk · Feb 11, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Jeff you claimed Luther supported your assertion that "RC church was satanic"
But what he actually said was:
"That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted"
So it proves you are not interested in truth, only in anticatholic soundbites. Sad. Christianity is about truth, and without that you are nothing.

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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