I am a Seventh Day Adventist, Ask Me.

haz · Feb 1, 2015

Thanks for your reply.

To use your own words towards me, I saw a lot of "spin" in your post trying to justify SDA doctrine.

So I sifted through much of it to highlight what the outcome was of SDA doctrine. And as we see above, it's death to anyone who does not obey the law. According to SDA doctrine anyone who does not obey the law is a slave of sin, condemned by the law and thus facing death, and therefore not free and not a saint. I find this all somewhat similar to what the Pharisees taught.

Aside from the fact that Adventists don't keep the Sabbath as described in the OT anyway, anyone with Adventist friends and acquaintances know all too well their consistent failure to keep the commandments. I guess this means Adventists never really repented to begin with and are thus condemned by the law, a slave to sin, not free not a saint, and thus face death.

But for Christians, however, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Hence we do not face that death penalty that SDA doctrine condemns people with.
Our righteousness is not determined by the law.

Thus I suggest to you that Heb 10:26 is actually referring to those who turn back to the law to determine righteousness/salvation ( as SDA's do).

How does one make themselves a sinner, willfully?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner

Remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

Thus we see the willful sin in Heb 10:26 speaks of those who reject Christ (the truth) and instead turn back to works of the law to determine their righteousness.

Remember that it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

gotime · Feb 1, 2015

haz said:

No probs. now to address this post of yours.

You said "it's death to anyone who does not obey the law"

actually that is according the the bible as it is written:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

so then the carnal mind is not subject to Gods law and thus Death as Paul clearly says here and this mind cannot please God.

again Sin is breaking the law according to 1 John 3:4 and according to Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death. also the quoted passages in Galatians 5 show that those who do the works of the flesh do not inherit the kingdom of God. see verse 21. and above that those who have the spirit do not fulfil the works of the flesh.

So no this is not SDA teaching its in the Bible.

then you said " According to SDA doctrine anyone who does not obey the law is a slave of sin"

actually that also is in the bible:

As conclusively shown from John that sin is indeed breaking the law, the word of Jesus as also quoted in the post you refer to say very simply:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

being that sin is breaking the law this could just as accurately say: whosoever breaks the law is a slave of sin.

Paul puts it this way:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So again the law points out sin. and again Paul says in the chapter before:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

so if you sin/break the law you will die unless you repent and by faith in the power of Christ blood sin no more.

John puts it this way:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

but you say that the Devil still has power. I believe Satan was overcome at the cross and being that he has no power over those who look to Christ by faith Sin which is of the Devil also has no power over us.

You then said " I find this all somewhat similar to what the Pharisees taught."

however you are in error, the Pharisees taught to keep the law indeed but they did not do so by faith but by human effort.

as it is written:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So one attains by faith the other fails by self works. Paul writes on this same vain in chapter two:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

so the Gentiles by nature do what? the things contained in the "law" how? they have the law written on their heart. This is the work of Faith in Gods promise as it is written:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

and again:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So the teachers of the law tried to attain by self works and failed.

But those who are of faith in the promises of God are able to attain by Gods work in them. as it is written:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law could not save because as Paul showed in chapter 7 it simply points out what is good. but in so doing it reveals our bad. but Jesus through the Spirit fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us by writing it on our hearts so that by faith we make the mark that the teachers of the law could not. not by word only but literal obedience the fruit of the Spirit.

As to you talking of Adventist I will say nothing being that I can not speak for them, I only speak to what the Word says. and for my own experience of the truths contained in it.

You said:

"But for Christians, however, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5"

And I have demonstrated that that righteousness is not just by word but a literal change of life. a new creature that actually does righteousness. a true Christian is not just righteous by title but by deed also. as shown above it is done by faith and not works. but faith without works is dead.

as John says:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If you do not do righteousness then you are not righteous according to this verse.

God is not a God of confusion, you can't be a slave to sin and righteous at the same time. remember sin is not righteous but as the scripture says:

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

but sin repented of/ turned away from does not lead to death but life by faith in the transforming power of Christ.

why do you have such a low estimate of the power of Christ's blood and resurrection?

Do you think that God who created all things has not the power to destroy the works of the Devil?

I am sure you would say He does, yet you say that this powerless Devil still holds sway over the redeemed, how is that?

make no mistake you will be judged by Gods law as it is written:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

and again in this place:

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Revelation also reveals the wrath of God on those who disobey Gods law:

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Angels come form the Most Holy Place where is seen the ark of the testimony/law. and they pour out wrath.

Do you not know that this is prophesied in the law on the day of atonement When the High priest would enter the Most Holy Place with the breastplate of Judgement on Those who did not afflict themselves were cutt off from Gods people:

Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

those who keep the comments are those who love God and have faith in Him as it is written:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

as the Lord himself said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

quoted from the law/10 commandments:

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

and again who does the Devil hate?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

vers 9 says the dragon is Satan. notice He hates those who keep the commandments, why?

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Because those who have faith have been transformed and are obedient by His power working in us. He has no power over those who have faith and obey the commandments.

But those who do still sin/break the law are still under his power.

So why are you along with Satan persecuting those who keep the commandments of God and teach to do so?

It is written:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Beware friend that you don't find yourself as one of those who are labelled lawless/lawbreakers.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

I agree that it is sin to have unbelief in Jesus:

as it is written:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

but Belief without works is dead.

He who truly believe will obey as it is written:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Here John connect belief with obedience.

How is it that you do not see that it is you that is outside of faith on this one. you say faith has no fruit its merely words.

for indeed Abraham was justified by faith as it is written:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

but is this faith without works?

God forbid as it is written:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;

So if you claim to be free from sin by faith and yet by works you are a slave to sin still, then you have been deceived.

There is freedom in Christ, freedom from the evil one.

Joh 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;
Joh 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever.
Joh 8:36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

JesusLives · Feb 1, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

I am going to tell you why I keep Sabbath and it is nothing to do with E White. I can't get past the fact that the 4th Commandment was written by God in stone with His own finger. God our creator asking me to Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy. That same commandment references creation and that the Sabbath is the finishing touch to that creation and God asked us to come apart and spend time resting with and in Him on that day. That He God blessed it, sanctified it, hallowed it and then later told us that the Sabbath would be a sign between us and Him. God asked us to REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. God did this not EG White.

If I were to ignore the rest of the Bible and only have the 10 Commandments as these were written by God Himself. Obeying those 10 would make me a model citizen to dwell on this earth. Because I would know how to love God and I would know how to love my neighbor - because the 10 Commandments are built on love and how to show it to God and man. I just can't get past the fact that God wrote them. That means this part of the Bible is very important.

God's name is also in the Sabbath as we call Him Abba or Father. Jesus is our Savior and we are saved by grace but even in Revelation the verse that keeps coming to my mind is:

Revelation 14:12
12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

That is why I keep the Sabbath God asked me to Remember and I am trying to do just that.

Apostol2013 · Feb 1, 2015

kvport58nw said:

well I tell you this if you are still here , both Saturday and Sunday are Sabbaths to God and to the not church according to the apostles which the doctrine must be accepted in fullness that no man add to the foundation led by false truths and human perception showing an unwise persons mind , the apostles met on Sunday known as the first day of the week of the sabbatton and also the seventh day , both days are Sabbaths to us and what is being done here is not mind control through Sunday but mind control through division of an erroneous doctrine built of perception of carnally man instead of a True God ordained days both of them

haz · Feb 1, 2015

gotime said:

You might want to make posts shorter.

Above I see you judge righteousness by works of the law. That is unbelief.

The thief on the cross was saved by grace, without any works of the law.

But SDA doctrine seems to suggest maybe at least 2 different gospels.
Gospel 1: Those with death bed salvation are righteous without having done any works of the law.
Gospel 2: Those who live on as Christians are righteous only if they keep the commandments, the law. BTW, "keeping" the commandments means keeping them perfectly (James 2:10). As no Adventist is keeping the commandments then under their own doctrine they all stand condemned.

1John 3:7 to do righteousness is to walk by faith, that is believe on Jesus.

gotime said:

Again confirmation that Adventist doctrine is righteousness by works of the law.
BTW, you misunderstand the scriptures you quote from.

gotime said:

As Adventists fail to keep the commandments then they are all condemned under the doctrine they follow.
This shows how SDA doctrine is based on misunderstandings of scripture.

gotime said:

Again confirmation that SDA doctrine is all about righteousness by works of the law.

gotime said:

What is God's will?
John 6:40
this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life

Are those who preach works of the law obeying God's will?

Gal 3:12
The law is not of faith,

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 3:3
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God's will that Jesus spoke of in Matt 7:21 is that we believe on Jesus (John 6:40).

Those who preach works of the law are not walking by faith (Gal 3:12).
Those who preach works of the law are in unbelief.
Those who preach works of the law are those who practice lawlessness (Matt 7:23) as they are under the law (Rom 3:19) and are therefore judged as guilty of all the law (James 2:10).

Repent of dead works of self-righteousness (Heb 6:1) and obey God's will to believe on Jesus (John 6:40).

gotime said:

Again SDA doctrine is inconsistent with scripture.

Obedience refers to believing on Jesus.

1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confess Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The thief on the cross kept this commandment to believe on Jesus.
Yet SDA doctrine is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace, which is unbelief as we cannot mix these two.

Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So if works of the law are not works that shows our faith, as confirmed in scripture, then what are works that shows our faith?

James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Firstly we must remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. If Christians, who are spiritual, read scripture in physical terms, then we'll only make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought born again meant to re-enter into his mother's womb.

So who are the naked?
It the lost, who are spiritually naked, lacking the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness

And who are the destitute of daily food? It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.
1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food,and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ

We are to do the works of believing on Jesus (as Jesus himself said in John 6:29). These works can be seen when we let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5) preaching the gospel to the lost, the spiritually naked and spiritually hungry.

Legalists do not do this. They preach a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace (remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12) and thus by their works they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

Before continuing to respond to false accusations I should like to point out an obvious fact. Overwhelming some one with more questions than they can possibly address or answer proves nothing. It does not win a debate, or prove any point. To the contrary, it is more indicative of a tactic of avoiding real direct communication and debate. Using such methods is a form of censorship. Just another way to silence those we disagree with, using the psychological paralysis of information overkill, whether that information is correct or not. This methodology is not from above, but from beneath. It is and will be increasingly employed by the Devil and his own as the end approaches, and the number of his own increase while the number of God's own continues to decrease.

Far be it from me to judge that anyone on this board is intentionally using this method of censorship. Regardless, there is no way I can keep up with the pace here, there simply isn't enough time. This much I hold to be true though, those of you who will not respond to or answer replies to your accusations before hurling more of the same, are employing this tactic from beneath, whether intentionally or not. I have no choice therefore, but to begin weeding out those who will not address my replies to their accusations. Since they obviously have no real intention of allowing for intelligent dialogue. Now back to the catch up game.

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

Sylven said:

Im gald you can admit what must be so painfully honest to everyone in your group, and im sorry friend the bible describes what a prophet is and also identifies false prophets....The bible don't tell us to ignore the false prophecy and then take up the false prophets doctrine, it says we should reject the doctrine of a false prophet. I find it very odd that you would be comparing your group to the RCC as if that is a good thing? My friend I admire the honesty you are trying to show in these admissions but do not think that good fruit can come from a bad tree.

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

Sirk said:

Surly you know the difference between the Kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God? And the bible is very clear about how God sees false prophets and their false doctrines....Its very odd that you would even try to make this argument?

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

haz said:

Thanks for your reply.

To use your own words towards me, I saw a lot of "spin" in your post trying to justify SDA doctrine.

So I sifted through much of it to highlight what the outcome was of SDA doctrine. And as we see above, it's death to anyone who does not obey the law. According to SDA doctrine anyone who does not obey the law is a slave of sin, condemned by the law and thus facing death, and therefore not free and not a saint. I find this all somewhat similar to what the Pharisees taught.

Aside from the fact that Adventists don't keep the Sabbath as described in the OT anyway, anyone with Adventist friends and acquaintances know all too well their consistent failure to keep the commandments. I guess this means Adventists never really repented to begin with and are thus condemned by the law, a slave to sin, not free not a saint, and thus face death.

But for Christians, however, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Hence we do not face that death penalty that SDA doctrine condemns people with.
Our righteousness is not determined by the law.

Thus I suggest to you that Heb 10:26 is actually referring to those who turn back to the law to determine righteousness/salvation ( as SDA's do).

How does one make themselves a sinner, willfully?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner

Remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

Thus we see the willful sin in Heb 10:26 speaks of those who reject Christ (the truth) and instead turn back to works of the law to determine their righteousness.

Remember that it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

What they want to do is turn this into another endless debate about the law and grace. The last thing a SDA wants to discuss is who really taught them to be in this false religious system and to judge the evil spirit that was in control of the founder of their group. Much like the Mormons, the last thing they want folks to know is that Joseph Smith was a dirty ole pervert, who molested young girls and took other mens wives....

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

Mitspa said:

Once again, you have no idea of the context or events connected to the above statement. I can see on this one, why you would think the way you do, being so very ignorant of the history of what was going on within the SDA church when she wrote this, and of her writings as well. This is the problem with all of your one liners, you are an ignorant man, trying to pass yourself off as one with real knowledge concerning the history of the SDA church, and the writings of EGW. If you have the courage to go beyond your simple accusation on this one, and actually dialogue with someone who is more knowledgeable than you are about these things, you might learn something. It could spare you the embarrassment of having to explain to God why you so vehemently attacked that which you had no true knowledge of. Just a thought.

SDA's believe that God's professed followers on this earth really can and do effect the outcome of biblical prophecy with their words and actions. This is a basic really, and as I see it, would only be denied by those who want no responsibility for their actions pertaining to the same. If God tells His servants to give a message, and they do not, then they have effected God's plans in the negative. If He commands them to do something and they do not, then they have effected His plans in the negative again. The most basic gospel commission reveals this common sense reality well. When the gospel is given to all the world, the end will come. Obviously, the more serious God's own are about giving it, the sooner this event will transpire. It is simple cause and effect. If the trumpet does not make a certain sound, then who will prepare for war.

1Cor 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Do you suppose Mitspa that God intended that the entire generation of Jews which He delivered from Egypt should die in the wilderness without entering the promised land? Or was it a lack of faith on their part, and therefore action in accordance with God's will, that determined this fate for them? No, but we have the testimony from scripture that it was because of their own lack of faith that they died in the wilderness before entering the promised land. They negatively effected God's plans, and prolonged their wondering in the wilderness until death.

Heb 3:7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

God's people of the old covenant prolonged their journey to promised land of the same by a lack of faith in God's word. God's people of the new covenant era are guilty of the same. This is what EGW was addressing in the quote you gave. The SDA church has a commission to give the three angels messages of Revelation 14. The third angels message is concerning the mark of the beast, which I am sure all here know, that SDA's believe will be forced observance of Sunday sacredness. In the late 1800's a special message concerning Christ's righteousness being applied to God's people was being given in the SDA church. Concurrently there was a movement in this nation to establish a national Sunday law. It is the belief of many SDA's and apparently EGW as well, that if the majority of SDA's had not rejected this message of Christ's righteousness and combined it with the testimony of the thirds angels message, the events of Revelation 18 would have transpired by now and Christ would have already returned. This is what EGW was addressing.

This much I know to be true, none of us this side of the old covenant, will be able to blame God for how long we wonder in the wilderness of sin in this world. It is our lack of faith which causes the delay, not God's planning.

Rev 14:1 ¶ And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 ¶ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

When the message of the above chapter goes forward with power, the end of Babylon and therefore this world will follow shortly after. God was not lying when He told Moses and Israel that He would lead them to the promised land, this was His intention. The generation that did not enter it, simply would not believe His promises and act accordingly, therefore they did not enter.

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

Mitspa said:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.……………………………..................................................................................16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Hope you don’t mind if I put a little context around the verse you are using to prove the Sabbath doesn’t matter. The Sabbath days mentioned, are not the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, but the Sabbath days of the ceremonial laws. None of the ten commandments are mentioned in the above verses. It is all about the commandments and doctrines of men. This can absolutely not be said regarding any of the ten commandments, all of which were spoken and written by God Himself. Beside the fact that Paul would be contradicting his own words in other scriptures, if he were telling people not to worry about keeping the fourth commandment. As usual, those who want to reject just one of God’s commandments, must take the scriptures out of context to support their view.

Here are some other scriptures where Paul is talking about the ten commandments.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

You cannot establish a law, by ignoring it. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God, and neither indeed can be, not the mind which has the Holy Spirit of God.

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

Like I said we have about 100 open threads on the law and grace...but this thread seems to be about trying to establish the SDA as a real Christian group? For which, I insist that by only looking at the false prophet who taught this legalism and the spirit of error she has put upon those in the SDA, can we really understand the issue of the SDA and why it is rejected by the other Protestant groups.

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1).

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

Mitspa said:

No doubt this statement is due once again to your true ignorance of both the writings of EGW, and the teachings of the Reformers regarding the Church of Rome in relation to biblical prophecy. The Reformers identified the Church of Rome with the system of antichrist, Babylon the great, and the man of sin. So do SDA's, and so did EGW. While the vast majority of "Protestants" today have abandoned these views of their founding fathers, the SDA church has not. To the contrary, we uphold them and continue to expound upon their significance to historical fulfillment of biblical prophecy and current events transpiring in this ever increasingly globally unified world.

[FONT=&quot]CHAP. 13 TESTIMONY OF THE REFORMERS[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Unless otherwise specified, all of the following quotes are taken from the four volume series THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS by Le Roy Edwin Froom. [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]HILARY OF POITIERS [/FONT][FONT=&quot](300-368)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ He [Hilary] begins by speaking the blessings of peace, which the Christians of that day could neither enjoy nor promote, beset as they were by the forerunners of Antichrist…….. They bear themselves not as bishops of Christ but as priests of Antichrist. This is not random abuse, but sober recognition of the fact, stated by St. John, that there are many Antichrists. For these men assume the cloak of piety, and pretend to preach the Gospel, with the one object of inducing others to deny Christ. It was the misery and folly of the day that men endeavoured to promote the cause of God by human means and the favor of the world. Hilary asks bishops, who believe in their office, wether the Apostles had secular support when by their preaching they converted the greater part of mankind……[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “ The church seeks for secular support, and in so doing insults Christ by the implication that His support is insufficient. She in her turn holds out the threat of exile and prison. It was her endurance of these that drew men to her; now she imposes her faith by violence. She craves for favors at the hand of her communicants; once it was her consecration that she braved the threatening of persecutors. Bishops in exile spread the faith; now it is she that exiles bishops. She boasts that the world loves her; the worlds hatred was the evidence that she was Christ’s……. The time of Antichrist, disguised as an angel of light, has come. The true Christ is hidden from almost every mind and heart. Antichrist is now obscuring the truth that he may assert falsehood hereafter.” (E. W. Watson, Introduction to Hilary of Poitiers, in NPNF, 2d series, vol. 9, pp. lii, liii.) Vol. 1, p. 409.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]ARNULF[/FONT][FONT=&quot] bishop of Orleans during the pontificate of John XV (985-996)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “What shall we say, revered fathers? To what blemish shall we attribute the fact that the first of the churches of God, once so lifted up and crowned with glory and honour, should be brought down so low and tarnished with shame and infamy? If we severely expect gravity of manners, purity of life, joined to sacred and profane learning, in every man who is ordained to the Episcopate; what ought not to be exacted in the case of him who aspires to be the teacher of all bishops. How, then, is it that those have been put in possession of that most high See, who were not worthy to fill any place whatsoever in the priesthood? What, in your eyes, reverend fathers, is that Pontiff, seated on a throne, and clad in purple and gold? If he hath not charity, and be puffed up with his learning only, he is Antichrist sitting in the temple of God, and demeaning himself as a god; he is like unto a statue in that temple, like a dumb idol, and to ask of him a reply, is to appeal to a figure of stone.” ( This English translation is from Villemain, op. cit., vol. 1 pp.175,176.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 541&542[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ Let us imitate the great church of Africa, which, in reply to the pretensions of the Roman Pontiff, deemed it inconceivable that the Lord should have invested any one person with his own plenary prerogative of judicature, and yet have denied it to the great congregations of his priests assembled in council in different parts of the world.” ( Quoted in Schaff, History, vol. 4, p. 291.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 542[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]EBERHARD II[/FONT][FONT=&quot], archbishop of Salzburg (1200-1246)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ Under the title of Pontifex Maximus, we discern, unless we are blind, a most savage wolf, with the garment of a shepherd; the Roman priests [flamines] have arms against all Christians; made great by daring, by deceiving, by bringing wars after wars, they slaughter the sheep, they cut them off, they drive away peace and harmony from the earth, they stir up internal wars, domestic insurrections from below, day by day they weaken more and more the energies of all, so that they revile the heads of all, they devour all, they reduce all to slavery.” (Translated from Ioannes Aventinus, Annales Boiorum Libri Septem, p. 683.) Vol. 1 chap. 32 p. 799[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ Both true and false concepts of the continuance of Rome powerfully influenced not only churchmen but statesmen, but the position taken by Eberhard in 1240-that the breakup of Rome gave rise to a group of smaller kingdoms, among whom afterward came up the relgio- political power of the historical Papacy as thye Little Horn-became the standard interpretation of fourteenth-century Wyclif in Britain, then of sixteenth-century Luther and most of his associates, and next of Cranmer, Knox, and the bulk of British Reformers. Practically all the post-Reformation writers on the Continent and in Britain and America declared the same. Even the Jewish expositer Don Isaac Abravanel of Spain, in 1496, made a like explanation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] This reformation view was the sort of belief which helped to nerve men to withstand the powerful forces under the command of the Papacy, and to go to the stake rather than yield to her spiritual despotism; for Protestant martyrs dared not obey her injunctions or follow her apostasies, and thus incur the displeasure of Heaven. Therefore they no longer feared her anathemas.” (THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, by Froom, vol. 1, chap. 32, p. 806)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]FRANCESCO PETRARCH, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Poet (1304-1374) Concerning the church of Rome.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Vengeaunce must fall on thee, thow filthie whore[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of Babilon, thow breaker of Christ’s fold,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That from acorns, and from the water colde,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Art riche become with making many poore.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thow treason’s neste that in thie harte dost holde[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of cankard malice, and of mischief more[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Than pen can wryte, or may with tongue be tolde,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Slave to delights that chastity hath solde;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For wyne and ease which settith all thie store[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Uppon whoredome and none other lore,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In thye pallais of strompetts yonge and olde[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Theare walks Plentie, and Belzebub thye Lorde;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Guydes thee and them, and doth thye raigne uphold:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is but late, as writing will recorde,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That poore thow weart without lande or goolde;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yet how hathe golde and pryde, by one accorde,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In wickedness so spreadd thie lyf abrode,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That it dothe stinke before the face of God.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]( Francesco Petrarch, Sonnet CV, translated by Wyatt (?), in The Sonnets, Triumphs, and Other Poems of Petrarch, pp. 135, 136.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ Thou Babylon, seated on the wild banks of the Rhone, shall I call thee famous or infamous, O harlot, who hast committed harlotry with the kings of the earth? Truly thou art the same that the holy Evangelist saw in spirit, the same, I say, and not another, sitting upon many waters. Either literally, being surrounded by three rivers, or, in the profusion of this world’s goods, among which thou sittest wanton and secure, unmindful of eternal riches; or, in the sense laid down by him that beheld thee, that the waters on which you the harlot sit are peoples and nations and languages. Recognize thine own features. A women clothed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of abomination in the impurity of her fornication-Dost thou not know thyself, O Babylon? Unless perhaps what is written upon her forehead is wrong, Babylon the great, you indeed are Babylon the little.” ( Translated from Petrarch, Epistolarum Sine Titulo, Liber, letter headed Babylonem Gallicam Describit, in Opera, vol. 2, p. 807. )[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]WALTER BRUTE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fourteenth-century British or Welsh layman and Lollard scholar.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ Item, The said Walter hath oftentimes said, and commonly avouched, that the Pope is Antichrist, and a seducer of the people, and utterly against the Law and life of Christ,” (“Proceedings in the trial of Walter Brut for Heresy, Etc.,” original Latin in Registrum Johannis Trefnant, Episcopi Herefordensis, p. 279; translated in Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 543.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ If the high Bishop of Rome calling himself the Servant of the Servants of God, and the Chief Vicar of Christ in this World, do make and maintain many laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ; then is he of those that have come in Christ’s name, saying, I am Christ, and have seduced many a one, by the Testimony of our Savior in Math. Chap. 24. And the Idol of desolation sitting in the Temple of God and taking away from him the continual sacrifice for a time, times, and half a time, which Idol must be revealed to the Christian people by the testimony of Daniel. Whereof Christ speaketh in the Gospel; When ye shall see the abomination of desolation that was told of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place; let him that readeth understand.” (Registrum, p.287; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 545.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ And sitting in the Temple of God, doth advance himself above all things that is called God, or whatsoever is worshipped, by the testimony of Paul to the Thess. 2 Epistle, Chap. 2. And in the defection or falling away shall the man of sin be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth….He is also besides, The Beast ascending up out of the earth, having two horns like unto a Lamb, but he speaketh like a Dragon, and as the cruel Beast ascending up out of the Sea, whose Power shall continue 42 months. He worketh the things that he hath given to the Image of the Beast. And he compelled Small and Great, Rich and Poor, Free-men and Bond-slaves, to worship the beast, and to take his mark in their Forehead or their Hands, Apoc. Chap. 13. And thus by the testimony of all these places is the chief Antichrist upon the Earth, and must be slain with the sword of God’s Word, and cast with the Dragon, the cruel Beast and the false prophet that hath seduced the Earth, into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented world without end.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp. 545, 546.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] “ If the city of Rome do allow his Traditions, and do disallow Christ’s holy Commandments, and Christ’s Doctrine, that it may confirm his Traditions; then is she Babylon the Great, or the Daughter of Babylon, and the Great Whore sitting upon many waters, with whom the Kings of the Earth have committed Fornication, and the Inhabitants of the earth are become drunken with the Wine of her Harlotry lying open to Bawdry. With whose spiritual Whoredom, Enchantments, Witchcrafts, and Simon Magus Merchandises, the whole round world is infected and seduced; saying in her heart, I sit as a Queen, and Widow I am not, neither shall I see Sorrow and mourning. Yet is she ignorant that within a little while shall come the day of her destruction and ruine by the Testimony of the Apoc. Chap. 17. Because that from the time of the continual Sacrifice was taken away, and that abomination of Desolation placed, there be passed 1290 days, by the Testimony of Daniel [chap. Xii.], and the Chronicles added to agree to the same. And the holy City also hath been trodden under foot of the Heathen, for forty two months, and the Woman was nourished up in the Wilderness (unto which she fled for fear of the face of the Serpent) during 1260 days, or else for a time, times, and half a time, which is all one. All these things be manifest by the Testimony of the Apocalyps, and the Chronicles thereto agreeing.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 546.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]POPES ARE ANTICHRIST BECAUSE THEY ARE PRIEST-KINGS.- [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “ Seeing then that the Bishops of Rome do say that they are the High Priests; they say also therein that they are Kings, because they say that they have the Scriptural Sword pertaining to their Priesthood, and the corporal Sword which agreeth for a Kings State. So is it plain, that really and in very deed, they say, That they are Christs, albeit that expressly they be not called Christs. Now that they come in the name of Christ it is manifest, because they say that they are his principal Vicars in this World, ordained of Christ specially for the Government of the Christian Church. Therefore, seeing they say, that really and in very deed they are Christs, and the chief friends of Christ: If they make and justifie many Laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it is plain that they themselves in earth are the principal Antichrists, because there is no worse plague and pestilence, than a familiar enemy. And if in secret they be against Christ, and yet in open appearance they say that they are his friends, they are so much more the meet to seduce and deceive the Christian people.” (Registrum, pp. 300, 301; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 550.)[/FONT]

Testimony continued in next post -

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

Hebrews 9:12 does NOT say “by his own blood he will enter” or that “He will obtain eternal redemption for us.” The Anti-typical work of the Day of Atonement is a finished work, which Christ performed at His ascension. I examined in careful detail the Greek text. “Once” really meant exactly that, ONE TIME; ONCE FOR ALL TIME! Hebrews 9:12 leaves no room for Christ to enter the Most Holy Place in Heaven a second time in 1844!

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

SIR JOHN OLDCASTLE 1360-1417

“But as touching the Pope and his spirituality, I owe them neither suit nor service, forsomuch as I know him by the scriptures to be the great Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the open Adversary of God, and the Abomination standing in the holy place.” (Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 636.)

“ My belief is (as I said afore) that all the scriptures of the sacred Bible are true. All this is grounded upon them I believe throughly. For I know it is God’s pleasure that I should do so. But in your lordly Laws and idle determinations have I no belief. For ye be no part of Christ’s holy Church, as your open deeds do shew: But ye are very Antichrists, obstinately set against His holy Law and Will….
“ And let all men consider well this, That Christ was meek, and merciful; the Pope is proud, and a tyrant; Christ was poor and forgave, the Pope is rich and a malitious Man-slayer, as his daily acts do prove him. Rome is the very nest of Antichrist, and out of that nest come all of the Disciples of him. Of whom, Prelates, Priests, and Monks, are the body, these pil’d Friers are the tail, which covereth his most filthy part.” (Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp.640, 641.)

JOHN HUSS, OR HUS ( 1369-1415) “I beseech you in Christ Jesus, with all your fellow members of the University, to be prepared for a battle; for the reconnoiters of Antichrist have already begun, and the fight will soon follow. The Goose also must needs flap his wings against the wings of Behemoth, and against his tail, which always conceals the abomination of the beast Antichrist……. The Lord shall destroy the head and the tail- that is, the Pope and his prophets, masters, doctors, priests, who under the false pretext of sanctity conceal the abomination of the beast. Pray, what greater abomination can their be than a harlot who should parade herself and offer herself publicly? Yes, there is still greater abomination of the beast sitting in a place of honour and offering himself for worship to all comers, as though he were God: ready to sell whatever a man may wish to buy in matters spiritual. Yea, he sells what he does not possess. Woe be to me, then, if I shall not preach, weep, and write against such an abomination!” (The Letters of John Hus, edited by Herbert B. Workman and R. Martin Pope, Letter XXVI, pp. 118, 119.)

“ Surely now the wickedness, iniquity, and baseness of Antichrist has been revealed in the Pope and his associates in the Council: now the faithful servants of God can understand the meaning of the Saviour’s words, When ye shall see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet,….he that readeth, let him understand. Verily ‘a great abomination’ is pride, avarice, and simony: ‘in a place apart’- that is,dignity which lacks modesty, love, and other virtues; and this is whatwe clearly mark in those who win office and dignity. Would that I were allowed to point out their wickedness, in order that the faithful servants of God might beware of them! Gladly would I do so; but I am trusting that God will raise up others after me, braver men than there are to-day, who shall better reveal the wickedness of Antichrist and lay down their lives for the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ, who will grant eternal joy both to you and to me. Amen. I write this letter in prison, on the day of St. John Baptist, as I lie bound in chains, remembering that St. John also was beheaded in prison for the sake of God’s truth.” (Ibid., p. 258.)

GIROLAMO SAVONAROLA (1452-1498) “The Roman church is full of simony and vileness…. I visualized a black cross over Babylon-Rome with the inscription: Wrath of the Lord. And it rained upon her swords and knives, lances and weapons of all kinds, as well as hailstones and brimstones in a terrible thunderstorm in deepest gloom. And I saw another cross of gold which reached from the sky over Jerusalem to the earth with the inscription: Mercy of God. And here was full sunshine. And on the strength of vision I declare again, that the Church must reform herself, and that very soon because God is angry.” (Savonarola, Auswahl, pp. 120, 121.)

“ Fly from Rome, for Babylon signifies confusion, and Rome hath confused all the Scriptures, confused all vices together, confused everything. Fly, then, from Rome, and come to repentance.” (Villari, op. cit., p.413, citing Lenten Sermon (1496), for Wednesday after fifth Sunday.)

“ ‘Come here thou ribald Church. The Lord saith: I gave thee beautiful vestments, but thou hast made idols of them. Thou hast dedicated the sacred vessels to vainglory, the sacraments to simony; thou hast become a shameless harlot in thy lusts; thou art lower than a beast, thou art a monster of Solomon, and soliciteth the world; he that hath gold is made welcome and may do as he will….. O prostitute Church…… thou hast multiplied thy fornications in Italy, in France, in Spain, and all other parts. Behold, I will put forth My hand, saith the Lord. I will smite thee, thou infamous wretch.” (Villari, op. cit., pp. 517, 518, citing Lenten Sermon XXII (1497), afterward suppressed by the Congregation of the Index.)

MARTIN LUTHER (1483-1546) “I will send you these compositions of mine, that you may judge whether I am right in my divination when I assert, that the true Antichrist mentioned by St. Paul reigns in the court of Rome and is, as I think I can prove, a greater pest than the Turks.” (Dr. Martin Luthers Sammtliche Schriften edited by Johann Georg Walch, vol. 15, col. 2430; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201. Hereafter Luther’s Schriften, without other specification, will mean this Walch edition.)

“I am sifting the pontifical decrials with a view to my disputation [at Leipsig]; and, to whisper to you the truth, I am not determined whether the Pope be Antichrist himself or only his apostle, so cruelly is Christ (which is the truth) corrupted and crucified by him in his decrials. I am in perfect torture when I consider that the people of Christ are thus mocked, under the pretence of the laws and name of Christ.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 156; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201.)

“I am practically concerned, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.” (Translated from Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 234. In all translation a faithful, literal rendering, rather than a free, literary translation, is followed.)

“ We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist, against whose deceit and vileness all is permitted for the salvation of souls. Personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 15, col. 1693.)

“ I cry aloud on behalf of liberty and conscience, and I proclaim with confidence that no kind of law can with any justice be imposed on Christians, whether by men or angels, except so far as they themselves will; for we are free from all. If such laws are imposed on us, we ought so to endure them as still to preserve the consciousness of our liberty. We ought to know and steadfastly to protest that a wrong is being done to that liberty, though we may bear and even glory in that wrong; taking care neither to justify the tyrant nor to murmur against the tyranny. ‘Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1 Pet. 3:13.) All things work together for good to the elect of God. Since, however, there are but few who understand the glory of baptism and the happiness of Christian liberty, or who can understand them for the tyranny of the Pope- I for my part will set free my own mind and deliver my conscience, by declaring aloud to the Pope and all papists, that, unless they shall throw aside all their laws and traditions, and restore liberty to the churches of Christ, and cause that liberty to be taught, they are guilty of the death of all the souls which are perishing in this wretched bondage, and that the papacy is in truth nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the Church; while he yet sits in the Church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny. It has extinguished faith, darkened the sacraments, crushed the gospel; while it has enjoined and multiplied without end its own laws, which are not only wicked and sacrilegious, but also most unlearned and barbarous.” (Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197 (Schriften, vol. 19. Cols. 70, 71).

“ Neither is that which Matthew hath foretold, in ch. 24, touching that Horrible Abomination (to wit) Antichrist, a less certain Signs to me then [than] the former, namely that under his Kingdome, there should be and prevail, extream blindness, the most pernicious Errors, and the highest wickednesses. All which things do most wretchedly flourish in the kingdom of the Pope, and that in the greatest impudency and tyranny that can be.” (The signs of Christ’s coming and of the Last Day, the substance of a sermon of Martin Luther, p. 6.)

“ Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess. 2:3,4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God,- that Man of Sin, that Son of perdition. What else is papal power but sin and corruption? It leads souls to destruction under thine own name, O Lord! …. I hope the day of judgment is soon to dawn. Things can and will not become worse than they are at this time. The papal see is practicing iniquity to its heights. He suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God.” (Dr. Martin Luthers sammtliche Werke (Erlangen edition), vol. 21, p.339.)

PHILIPP MELANCHTHON (1497-1560) “ 18. Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist.” (Translated from Melancthon, Disputationes, No. 56, “De Matrimonio,” in Opera (Corpus Reformation), vol. 12, col. 535.)

“19. Likewise in Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc.
“20. But it is certain that the popes do rule in the church, and under the title of the church in defending idols.
“21. Wherefore I affirm that no heresy hath arisen, nor indeed shall be, with which these descriptions of Paul can more truly and certainly accord and agree than with this pontifical kingdom….
“25. The prophet Daniel also attributes these two things to Antichrist; namely, that he shall place an idol in the temple, and worship [it] with gold and silver; and that he shall not honor women.
“26 That both of them belong to the Roman Pontiff, who does not clearly see? The idols are clearly the impious masses, the worship of saints, and the statues which are exhibited in gold and silver that they may be worshiped.” (Ibid., cols. 535, 536.)

NICOLAUS VON AMSDORF (1483-1565) He [the Antichrist] will be revealed and come to naught before the last day, so that every man shall comprehend and recognize that the pope is the real, true Antichrist and not the vicar of Christ…. Therefore those who consider the pope and his bishops as Christian shepherds and bishops are deeply in error, but even more are those who believe that the Turk is the Antichrist. Because the Turk rules outside the church and does not sit in the holy place, nor does he seek to bear the name of Christ but is an open antagonist of Christ and His church. This does not need to be revealed, but it is clear and evident because he persecutes Christians openly and not as the pope does, secretly under the form of godliness.” (Nicolaus von Amsdorf, Funff furnemliche und gewisse Zeichen, sig. A4v.)

‘ This beast we know is the Roman Empire, which carries and supports the red Babylonian whore, which is the Papacy. The mark of the beast is the canons, the decrees and ceremonies of the Pope, and all ecclesiastical traditions concerning food, drink, and dress, singing, reading, and other childish things which have nothing to do with, nor belong to, the kingdom of God, which is true Christianity.” (Ibid., sig. D1r.-D2r.)

MATTHIAS FLAGIUS (Vlacich) (1520-1575) The sixth and last reason for our separation from the pope and his followers be this: By many writings of our church, by the Divinely Inspired Word, by prophecies concerning the future and by the special characteristics of the papacy, it has been profusely and thoroughly proved that the pope with his prelates and clergy is the real true great Antichrist, that his kingdom is the real Babylon, a never ceasing fountain and a mother of all abominable idolatry. (Flacius, Etliche Hochwichtige Ursachen und Grunde, warumb das sich alle Christen von dem Antichrist…..absondern sollen.)

ANDREAS MUSCULUS (1514-1581) ………And today we see and hear how the precious word has taken its course straight towards midnight and how it shall reach further and further till it comes to the very last hamlet of this world…..[On Matt. 24.9-they shall deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you] Whereas this was first fulfilled under the persecution of emperors….. Now since 800 years the pope of Rome from the beginning of his Antichristian kingdom has started to slay, to kill, and to destroy. Many a learned man, many pious Christians who have comprehended this abomination, protested against it, and refused to worship the Bride of Babylon, were put to death by him and exterminated.
(Translated from Andreas Musculus, Vom tungsten Tage.)

HULDREICH (ULRICH) ZWINGLI (1484-1531) …….Not because they do any injustice to the Papacy, for I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist. (Huldreich Zwingli, Hauptschriften [Principal Works], vol. 7, p. 135.)

If we would live Christlike, everybody would fall away from Popedom, because they would recognize that nothing else than deceitful pomp stands behind it. [In this spirit] everything undertaken toward its fall will succeed. And I request that we break the might of the Papacy not by the power of hate, but by the power of love to God and to our neighbor. (Ibid., p. 137.)

You are protecting all this disorder, this most wicked profession, this antichristian Papacy, although you see the bright shining light and perceive that all nations rejoice that the wickedness of the harlot, who deceived everybody, has been revealed. (Ibid., p. 199.)

The Papacy has to be abolished or it conceals itself until it suppresses again the gospel. But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thess. 2), because as soon as the world receives this [the word of God] in the right way, it will turn away from the pope without compulsion. (Ibid., p. 205.)

HEINRICH BULLINGER (1504-1575) The scarlet woman of Revelation 17 is “the Romish church” and Rome the seat of the Beast. (Bullinger, A Hundred Sermons upon the Apocalips, preface; see also his Decades, decade 4, sermon 7, pp. 273 ff.)

The Pope is Antichrist because he usurps the keys of Christ and His kingly and priestly authority. (Ibid., sermon 6, p. 44.)

There is far more to share, but we will stop here, I'm sure you get the idea.

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

So what of course the Protestants was PROTESTING! against the RCC! But they did not accept another false prophet like Joseph Smith or Ellen G white!

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

The Devil himself taught Ellen G White the doctrine the SDA now holds! She was clearly a false prophet and a servant of satan.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

"But there is an objection to the marriage of the white race with the black. All should consider that they have no right to entail upon their offspring that which will place them at a disadvantage; they have no right to give them as a birthright a condition which would subject them to a life of humiliation. The children of these mixed marriages have a feeling of bitterness toward the parents who have given them this lifelong inheritance. For this reason, if there were no other, there should be no intermarriage between the white and the colored race."--Manuscript 7, 1896 (Selected Messages Book 2, page 343, paragraph 2). Teachings of Ellen G White

Mitspa · Feb 1, 2015

Oh we have not gone into the part where Ellen G white believes that blacks and other races are the result of man breeding with animals......This is your "prophet" SDA! Renounce her now and repent of your fellowship with such darkness!

keeth · Feb 1, 2015

JustinFromTwinCities said:

The following is a list of scriptures in the new testament concerning the law of God. The law of God was never meant as a means of righteousness, or salvation, but rather that it should point the sinner to both. The Lord Jesus Christ of course, being that which they point to for the salvation of the soul, and the fulfillment of righteousness within the believer. Christ did fulfill the law. Those therefore who believe in Him, and have accepted His presents in their hearts, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, also have the law fulfilled within them. This is not a means of righteousness or salvation, but rather as a result of being in Christ Jesus, in whom all things are made complete.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is spiritual. Those who walk in the spirit, have the righteousness of the law fulfilled within them. This is not in order to be saved, but rather because they have already been saved by faith in Christ.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. You cannot fulfill a law that no longer exists.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those who walk in the spirit, are not under the law. This is because, as has already been pointed out, the law is spiritual. Those who are walking in the spirit have the law fulfilled within them, instead of the works of the flesh, or carnal nature. If you are in Christ, by faith, then you have died with Him. If you have died with Him, then the penalty of the law is no longer over you, for the penalty is death, and you have already died in Christ. This having been accomplished by Christ's death on the cross, and your faith in that act, you now walk in newness of life. It is no longer you, but Christ that lives in you. This is the fulfillment of the law within the heart. Paul explains this very clearly in the next verses.

Rom 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

PRAISE GOD! we have been freed from the penalty of sin, which is death, and given the power from God to live a life of righteousness, that is the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

II Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If you will ignore the above scriptures in relation to any one of the ten commandments, including the fourth, you need not concern yourself with whether EGW was a true prophet or not. It is all there right in front of you in the scriptures themselves.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist, Ask Me.

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