EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL AFTER NT: EPHRAEM'S SERMON
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Re: This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL
What is your proof to the contrary of what is found in the existing history of Christianity.
That would require proof to the contrary of the historical record of Christianity which exists now.
And that document is not part of any Canon.
I trust Divine Providence both in the selection of the Canon and in the preservation of Scripture.
Agreed.
Negatives cannot be proven, they can only be disproven.
Because since negatives can only be disproven,
disproof falls on you by proving where it is generally found,
as purgatory and the assumption of Mary are found in the general presentation in the church.
I ask you the same question:
since you cannot find "pre-trib" doctrine generally presented in the church before 150+ years ago,
why do you not just admit and say it was not presented until then?
What is your proof to the contrary of what is found in the existing history of Christianity.
That would require proof to the contrary of the historical record of Christianity which exists now.
And that document is not part of any Canon.
I trust Divine Providence both in the selection of the Canon and in the preservation of Scripture.
Agreed.
Negatives cannot be proven, they can only be disproven.
Because since negatives can only be disproven,
disproof falls on you by proving where it is generally found,
as purgatory and the assumption of Mary are found in the general presentation in the church.
I ask you the same question:
since you cannot find "pre-trib" doctrine generally presented in the church before 150+ years ago,
why do you not just admit and say it was not presented until then?
Re: This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL
ELIN, since you made the dogmatic statement about pre-trib rapture theory not occurring before 19th century, you have to prove it or retract. Asking me to prove the opposite doesn't let you off the hook. Why don't you admit that you can't prove your theory? You might get honest & say, "I have read X percent of the writings of Christendom from the Apostolic Fathers to 19th century, and I have not see Pre-Tribism." But if the total percent is less that 1 percent, the statement is watered down.
Now my POV is that God's Word is best understood with a Pretrib rapture deduced from the imminence of Christ's return and the Church never being mentioned in the Tribulation (just Israel & the Church). I think that Shepherd of Hermas speaks of not going thru the trib & that the " Ephrem " document featured on this thread (dated to 8th century or earlier) seems to imply a pre-trib rapture of the elect. Another Ephrem document, thought to be the real Ephrem of Syria (a saint for RCC) seems to imply a rapture of the super-spiritual (saints in the RCC sense) before the Trib -- that would be pre-trib / Partial Rapture theory. And who know what may turn up as other documents come to light.
Moreover, it is my POV :
that most of what we have by way of the writings of Christendom have been preserved by the papal organization -- writings that disagreed were likely not preserved. We have no idea what the breadth & width of eschatological theory has been taught over so many centuries, but never written down. Most of what was taught was not written down. The real believers in Christ were rather busy being persecuted by the papacy.
The pre-trib rapture is implied by scripture, God's Word. But the concept of "canon" is an error. My sheep hear my voice. Believers have never had to wait around hundreds of years until some clericals in ecclesiastical duds & long beards figured out what God's Word was. Believers have the innate ability to detect God's voice. For example, a prophet might order someone in the name of the Lord to do something & be punished on the spot for disobedience. The Corinthians & the 7 Churches of Asia Minor were responsible to accept Paul's writings & John's writing as God's word at once. They were required to obey at once -- no canon council was required.
As the sheep received God's word piece by piece, they recognized it & believed it. There was no canon-process required. Peter already endorsed Paul's writings as part of scripture.
Elin no burden of proof whatsoever falls on me when you make an assertion. If you assert either positive or negative, the proof burden is yours.
Now if I make an assertion, the burden is on me for my assertions.
Let's see you prove that one. The Word of God has neither. The Body of Christ which I have met does not endorse it. If there were every anything so obvious it is that the papal system is not the Body of Christ. The widespread pederasty & child rape affirms the corruption of the system.
The purpose of this thread is to examine the evidence in the Ephrem/Ephraim/Ephraem apocalyptic/eschatological documents which come from late ancient - early medieval period. So quote your Ephrem's and make your case. I expect to learn from you if you do that. I think there is actually a number of such documents, not necessarily written by the same person, but still valuable in tracing the antiquity of eschatological doctrine. One thing that might be looked for is when did the POV arise that the tribulation was past (happened in AD 70).
And Christians do not agree on eschatology. That doesn't bother me really, neither do I despise anyone for having a different eschatology. But I hope we can agree that it is important to expect His return at any moment.
ELIN, since you made the dogmatic statement about pre-trib rapture theory not occurring before 19th century, you have to prove it or retract. Asking me to prove the opposite doesn't let you off the hook. Why don't you admit that you can't prove your theory? You might get honest & say, "I have read X percent of the writings of Christendom from the Apostolic Fathers to 19th century, and I have not see Pre-Tribism." But if the total percent is less that 1 percent, the statement is watered down.
Now my POV is that God's Word is best understood with a Pretrib rapture deduced from the imminence of Christ's return and the Church never being mentioned in the Tribulation (just Israel & the Church). I think that Shepherd of Hermas speaks of not going thru the trib & that the " Ephrem " document featured on this thread (dated to 8th century or earlier) seems to imply a pre-trib rapture of the elect. Another Ephrem document, thought to be the real Ephrem of Syria (a saint for RCC) seems to imply a rapture of the super-spiritual (saints in the RCC sense) before the Trib -- that would be pre-trib / Partial Rapture theory. And who know what may turn up as other documents come to light.
Moreover, it is my POV :
that most of what we have by way of the writings of Christendom have been preserved by the papal organization -- writings that disagreed were likely not preserved. We have no idea what the breadth & width of eschatological theory has been taught over so many centuries, but never written down. Most of what was taught was not written down. The real believers in Christ were rather busy being persecuted by the papacy.
The pre-trib rapture is implied by scripture, God's Word. But the concept of "canon" is an error. My sheep hear my voice. Believers have never had to wait around hundreds of years until some clericals in ecclesiastical duds & long beards figured out what God's Word was. Believers have the innate ability to detect God's voice. For example, a prophet might order someone in the name of the Lord to do something & be punished on the spot for disobedience. The Corinthians & the 7 Churches of Asia Minor were responsible to accept Paul's writings & John's writing as God's word at once. They were required to obey at once -- no canon council was required.
As the sheep received God's word piece by piece, they recognized it & believed it. There was no canon-process required. Peter already endorsed Paul's writings as part of scripture.
Elin no burden of proof whatsoever falls on me when you make an assertion. If you assert either positive or negative, the proof burden is yours.
Now if I make an assertion, the burden is on me for my assertions.
Let's see you prove that one. The Word of God has neither. The Body of Christ which I have met does not endorse it. If there were every anything so obvious it is that the papal system is not the Body of Christ. The widespread pederasty & child rape affirms the corruption of the system.
The purpose of this thread is to examine the evidence in the Ephrem/Ephraim/Ephraem apocalyptic/eschatological documents which come from late ancient - early medieval period. So quote your Ephrem's and make your case. I expect to learn from you if you do that. I think there is actually a number of such documents, not necessarily written by the same person, but still valuable in tracing the antiquity of eschatological doctrine. One thing that might be looked for is when did the POV arise that the tribulation was past (happened in AD 70).
And Christians do not agree on eschatology. That doesn't bother me really, neither do I despise anyone for having a different eschatology. But I hope we can agree that it is important to expect His return at any moment.
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Atwood said it all. The Pre-Trib Doctrine is deduced. It is not taught. NOTHING in the scripture should be deduced. That isn't how Jesus taught. This is an example of how things get added to scripture by man attempting to use his wisdom to supersede the Word of God. Christ taught one return after Satan's Great Islamic Tribulation. Christ taught we would suffer Tribulation. He never taught a free pass for the end times church but all churches from AD 33 to current would suffer tribulation.
Atwood said it all. The Pre-Trib Doctrine is deduced. It is not taught. NOTHING in the scripture should be deduced. That isn't how Jesus taught. This is an example of how things get added to scripture by man attempting to use his wisdom to supersede the Word of God. Christ taught one return after Satan's Great Islamic Tribulation. Christ taught we would suffer Tribulation. He never taught a free pass for the end times church but all churches from AD 33 to current would suffer tribulation.
If man can deduce something as monumental as a whole new additional return of Christ that isn't there, what else can man deduce? And, does this deduction based on two faulty premises (immanency and church allegedly not being mentioned) make the deduction true? Of course not, such thought is silly.
Immanency Doctrine is faulty because it has been 2,000 years and Christ has not returned. It is also faulty because Christ Himself discussed Peter's death which happened about 30 years later and John was given Revelation to write some 60 years later. Neither could have happened if Christ planned to come back right away. At what point does something no longer become immanent?
Why would Christ coming before the Tribulation be any more imminent than Him coming 7 years later? If the Tribulation started tomorrow, and Christ came tonight it would be 1982 years after His departure for a Pre-Trib return or 1989 years. Is the 1982 years really that much more imminent? Maybe Christ meant that when He comes, it would be like a thief in the night and not many people will be prepared.
Church not being mentioned. I have to totally disagree. The church is mentioned during Satan's Great Tribulation in a big way. Rev 2-3 is completely devoted to warning the 7 churches in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) of the pending tribulation for which they will be in the center. Satan's Great Tribulation is Islamic and it is these Islamic extremists who kill for Satan. They are described at the 4th Seal and this seal is Satan's Great Tribulation. We see the massive slaughtering of believers represented as the Great Multitude in Heaven. There's your church.
Look at the map of Islam. Turkey (and Israel) are right in the center. This is why John was told to warn these 7 churches as they are going to take the brunt of it being in the country where the Seat of Satan is located and where the rebirth of the 7th Beast kingdom takes place.
It is time to wake up and start understanding what is coming.
Immanency Doctrine is faulty because it has been 2,000 years and Christ has not returned. It is also faulty because Christ Himself discussed Peter's death which happened about 30 years later and John was given Revelation to write some 60 years later. Neither could have happened if Christ planned to come back right away. At what point does something no longer become immanent?
Why would Christ coming before the Tribulation be any more imminent than Him coming 7 years later? If the Tribulation started tomorrow, and Christ came tonight it would be 1982 years after His departure for a Pre-Trib return or 1989 years. Is the 1982 years really that much more imminent? Maybe Christ meant that when He comes, it would be like a thief in the night and not many people will be prepared.
Church not being mentioned. I have to totally disagree. The church is mentioned during Satan's Great Tribulation in a big way. Rev 2-3 is completely devoted to warning the 7 churches in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) of the pending tribulation for which they will be in the center. Satan's Great Tribulation is Islamic and it is these Islamic extremists who kill for Satan. They are described at the 4th Seal and this seal is Satan's Great Tribulation. We see the massive slaughtering of believers represented as the Great Multitude in Heaven. There's your church.
Look at the map of Islam. Turkey (and Israel) are right in the center. This is why John was told to warn these 7 churches as they are going to take the brunt of it being in the country where the Seat of Satan is located and where the rebirth of the 7th Beast kingdom takes place.
It is time to wake up and start understanding what is coming.
Let's see your plain proof of that claim. To prove it you have to show how the words therefore & wherefore are not found in the Bible. Of course deduction & induction are properly used to determine doctrine. An example is the Lord Jesus argument that there is a resurrection because God is not the God of the dead but of the living and He is said to be the God of Abraham (etc.). Prophet Paul argues from the use of seed in the singular (vs plural). Seed is in the singular, thus we deduce that it refers to Christ.
That is awful Newspaper exegesis. Actually eisegesis. There is nothing about an Islamic tribulation.
Of course, and what do you deduce from that??? What does everyone in the Church having tribulation have to do with going through the Great Tribulation in the future? Nothing. As a matter of fact most generations of the Church cannot possibly go through the Tribulation since they died off long ago and won't be on earth during the Tribulation.
Pre-trib is putting it all together the best we can; not a matter of dogmatic dander.
Logical deduction sure beats just "I say it, therefore I am right & you need to believe it just cause I say it."
That is awful Newspaper exegesis. Actually eisegesis. There is nothing about an Islamic tribulation.
Of course, and what do you deduce from that??? What does everyone in the Church having tribulation have to do with going through the Great Tribulation in the future? Nothing. As a matter of fact most generations of the Church cannot possibly go through the Tribulation since they died off long ago and won't be on earth during the Tribulation.
Pre-trib is putting it all together the best we can; not a matter of dogmatic dander.
Logical deduction sure beats just "I say it, therefore I am right & you need to believe it just cause I say it."
Immanency Doctrine is faulty because it has been 2,000 years and Christ has not returned.[/quote]
Talk about faulty deductions. And straw man. The doctrine of imminency states that Christ can return at any unknown time so far as man knows., not that He definitely will return in the near future. In other words, the judge stands at the doors (James 5). Do you disbelieve prophet James?
Basically what you have done is define imminency in a way contrary to how it is defined by Pre-tribulationists & then attacked a straw man.
Absolutely nothing can happen without God allowing it. God has a determined time for Christ to return -- but we don't know it. We are to understand that the Judge is at the doors -- we are to expect the return at any time. Christ spoke cryptically about Peter's death in such a way that persons who heard it would not understand. John understood after Peter died that Christ had predicted his death. Thus it was proper for the early Christians to look for & expect Christ's return at any time.
What is bad about some approaches is that they dogmatically state that Christ cannot come today, though those who think that way should take note that "You do not know when" is repeated twice in Mark 13 and at a time you think not!
I don't now any passage that calls the Rapture coming like a thief in the night.
Let's see you proof of that one. Does that square with the Church of Philadelphia being told they would not go into the tribulation? And where does Rev 2-3 say that Western Asia Minor is to be the center of the tribulation??? And let's see you prove that all 7 churches get a warning. None of those 7 churches went into the trib, for the trib has not happened yet.
Let's see the proof for that one. And where is there any "satan's great tribulation" in the Bible? Let's see your proof for seal 4 on that one.
The word "church" is not found in Rev 6-18. Not all believers are Church.
You gave not a shred of proof for your Islam theory.
Talk about faulty deductions. And straw man. The doctrine of imminency states that Christ can return at any unknown time so far as man knows., not that He definitely will return in the near future. In other words, the judge stands at the doors (James 5). Do you disbelieve prophet James?
Basically what you have done is define imminency in a way contrary to how it is defined by Pre-tribulationists & then attacked a straw man.
Absolutely nothing can happen without God allowing it. God has a determined time for Christ to return -- but we don't know it. We are to understand that the Judge is at the doors -- we are to expect the return at any time. Christ spoke cryptically about Peter's death in such a way that persons who heard it would not understand. John understood after Peter died that Christ had predicted his death. Thus it was proper for the early Christians to look for & expect Christ's return at any time.
What is bad about some approaches is that they dogmatically state that Christ cannot come today, though those who think that way should take note that "You do not know when" is repeated twice in Mark 13 and at a time you think not!
I don't now any passage that calls the Rapture coming like a thief in the night.
Let's see you proof of that one. Does that square with the Church of Philadelphia being told they would not go into the tribulation? And where does Rev 2-3 say that Western Asia Minor is to be the center of the tribulation??? And let's see you prove that all 7 churches get a warning. None of those 7 churches went into the trib, for the trib has not happened yet.
Let's see the proof for that one. And where is there any "satan's great tribulation" in the Bible? Let's see your proof for seal 4 on that one.
The word "church" is not found in Rev 6-18. Not all believers are Church.
You gave not a shred of proof for your Islam theory.
To further understand a doctrine is one thing... to invent a doctrine that has no basis is scripture and actually conflicts with scripture is entirely something else. You cannot deduce an early return of Christ (not found) which conflicts with the timing given by Paul and Christ. John never breathes a word about it either in all of Revelation which of course gives further details of events to come but is silent about any pre-trib rapture return.
The Great Tribulation is Satan's ISLAMIC Tribulation/Persecution of God's People (Jews and Christians alike). I'm sorry you can' see what is staring you right in the face. Not only do scriptures describe it, current events are proving it out. You have to be living in a cave not to see what is going on in the world.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
This horse is GREEN (CHLOROS) not pale. Pale is an incorrect translation. Green is the official color of Islam. Death sits on the Green Horse. What follows these so-called Martyrs of Allah?? Hades. How much of the world is Islamic? 1/4. How do they kill? War/Terror/Weapons, Starvation (the poorest nations are Islamic), by Chemical weapons and disease and of course by the very Beasts (Nations) that they control.
We don't have to deduce, the sequence is given. We have the Great Tribulation described in the 4th seal immediately followed by the 5th seal which shows us all the dead believers killed by Islam thus far. But they are told to wait because more will be killed before Christ returns with His Wrath and revenge.
I do give you a lot of credit for at least acknowledging that your view is pure theory. The problem is you have put it together completely wrong. Who comes first, Satan or Christ? Paul teaches that Satan appears first. You have Christ appearing first. That is a dangerous reversal since Satan will come first doing miracles and acting like Christ. If I was Satan and planned to come back claiming to be God it would be a neat trick if I could get most of the church to wrongly think Christ came first. Would Satan use such an unrighteous deception, claiming to be God??? Nah, he would never do that.
I don't just say. I show. Do you need proof that the Great Tribulation is of Satan? Do you need proof that Satan uses radical Islam to murder people and deceive people? Do you need proof that Islam is the world's "Great" False Religion and that it is the Mother of all Harlots complete with its own God and Prophet? Do you need proof that final Babylon is Mecca and that it will be destroyed by these same radical Islamic extremists? Do you need proof that the 3rd Seal describes the Arab Oil Kings of Saudi Arabia? Jeremiah tells us but you have to put it together.
Jer 50:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]A sword is against the soothsayers, and they will be fools.
A sword is against her mighty men, and they will be dismayed.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols.
The word "ARAB" means Mixed Peoples.
Which Arab nation has untold treasures while her people starve?
Where is MECCA located?
Which religion is "INSANE" with worship of their idols? Which religion kills if you offend their idol worship, prophets and false god?
The Great Tribulation is Satan's ISLAMIC Tribulation/Persecution of God's People (Jews and Christians alike). I'm sorry you can' see what is staring you right in the face. Not only do scriptures describe it, current events are proving it out. You have to be living in a cave not to see what is going on in the world.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
This horse is GREEN (CHLOROS) not pale. Pale is an incorrect translation. Green is the official color of Islam. Death sits on the Green Horse. What follows these so-called Martyrs of Allah?? Hades. How much of the world is Islamic? 1/4. How do they kill? War/Terror/Weapons, Starvation (the poorest nations are Islamic), by Chemical weapons and disease and of course by the very Beasts (Nations) that they control.
We don't have to deduce, the sequence is given. We have the Great Tribulation described in the 4th seal immediately followed by the 5th seal which shows us all the dead believers killed by Islam thus far. But they are told to wait because more will be killed before Christ returns with His Wrath and revenge.
I do give you a lot of credit for at least acknowledging that your view is pure theory. The problem is you have put it together completely wrong. Who comes first, Satan or Christ? Paul teaches that Satan appears first. You have Christ appearing first. That is a dangerous reversal since Satan will come first doing miracles and acting like Christ. If I was Satan and planned to come back claiming to be God it would be a neat trick if I could get most of the church to wrongly think Christ came first. Would Satan use such an unrighteous deception, claiming to be God??? Nah, he would never do that.
I don't just say. I show. Do you need proof that the Great Tribulation is of Satan? Do you need proof that Satan uses radical Islam to murder people and deceive people? Do you need proof that Islam is the world's "Great" False Religion and that it is the Mother of all Harlots complete with its own God and Prophet? Do you need proof that final Babylon is Mecca and that it will be destroyed by these same radical Islamic extremists? Do you need proof that the 3rd Seal describes the Arab Oil Kings of Saudi Arabia? Jeremiah tells us but you have to put it together.
Jer 50:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]A sword is against the soothsayers, and they will be fools.
A sword is against her mighty men, and they will be dismayed.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols.
The word "ARAB" means Mixed Peoples.
Which Arab nation has untold treasures while her people starve?
Where is MECCA located?
Which religion is "INSANE" with worship of their idols? Which religion kills if you offend their idol worship, prophets and false god?
Re: This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL
I attack the Immanency Doctrine as False Doctrine on the basis that to be imminent, it cannot have any prerequisites. The Return of Christ, however, has many prerequisites. Therefore it CANNOT be Imminent thus the concept that Christ could have returned at any point after His ascension is False. Here are some examples of events that must happen before Christ can return:
1. Peter must become an old man. John 21: ...Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.”
2. John must write the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" (AD 90-96 time frame). The churches had to be warned.
3. The Gospel must be preached to all the world. Mat 24: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
There are many more examples but these are ones that should not be controversial. The Great Commission was given and is still underway. Christ could not return before this mission was completed based on His own words. You can argue about Peter and John all you want but you cannot argue that the Great Commission would have to be cut short by the return of Christ before the Gospel was preached to all the Nations for this doctrine to be true. The Great Commission is nearly completed now and certainly was not close to being done before TV, internet, and Bible translations, etc.
We are given prerequisites such as the Great Commission but following these requirements being met, we will not know when (Day or Hour) Christ will return but we can know the season. I truly believe Paul gave us an even bigger sign.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Christ returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.
This of course agrees with Daniel 7 and Jesus.
The 7 spirits (angels/messengers) to the 7 churches get the warning, not the churches themselves directly. “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write", etc. The original 7 churches are long gone but their spirits remain and exist today. These 7 churches are the witnesses of Jesus Christ today and during Satan's Great Tribulation. These seven relate particularly to the Godhead, to God the Father, and most particularly to Jesus Christ. They represent the seven eyes of Christ (Revelation 5:6). They report back what is going on in this earth. They represent the seven angels that blow the seven trumpets and they represent the angels in charge of the seven ekklesias mentioned here. These spirits, those angels, are under the charge of Jesus Christ and they represent His eyes on the whole world. This is a long topic which I cannot fully explain in one post.
Correct, one of the churches (Philadelphia) is "kept from" not raptured from, Satan's Great Tribulation. Correct, God does allow everything. After all, God created Satan. But it's a stretch to blame God for all the murder and evil Satan will soon be bringing forth against God's chosen.
Rev 12:12 ...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
1. How do you think Satan's wrath is manifested?
2. When do you think Satan's wrath takes place relative to the return of Christ, before or after?
3. Who do you think is responsible for putting the Great Multitude (which come out of Great Tribulation) in heaven?
4. Is there any false religion active in the world today that hates Jews and Christians enough to behead them?
...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image...
Did God behead those mentioned above or did Satan's Islamic servants do it?
If you study BABYLON, the MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS there is only one conclusion about which false religion it is. Hint: It isn't the Roman Catholic Church in spite of their short comings.
Does the Church have to be mentioned by name in those chapters to be here? You don't understand how the seals, trumpets and bowls work. You think they are all part of the Great Tribulation when they are not. The seals are like an index, they contain the details inside. Once opened you get more details like reading a book.
Almost the entire book of Revelation is about the final beast Kingdom and it's false religion - ISLAM. ISLAM is described in Rev 13, 17 & 18 and by Daniel. ISLAM as a religion has been around since the 600s with Mohammed. But, it is just getting started as the murdering machine of the end times.
You have to understand what is important to God and what makes Him angry. What is the first commandment?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
Pay close attention to the above commandment. DO NOT MAKE A CARVED IMAGE OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN... DO NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR SERVE THEM.
How did the Babylonians of Daniel's day worship?
Dan 3: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”
Do you see any similarities below with how they worshiped in Daniel's day and the punishment for not obeying to what John saw in the end times?:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Rev 18: [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
What religion follows EXACTLY what the Babylonians did complete with an image (Kaaba Stone), the bowing down, and even the music? If you cannot see the truth my friend, then you never will because it is staring you right in the face!!!
I attack the Immanency Doctrine as False Doctrine on the basis that to be imminent, it cannot have any prerequisites. The Return of Christ, however, has many prerequisites. Therefore it CANNOT be Imminent thus the concept that Christ could have returned at any point after His ascension is False. Here are some examples of events that must happen before Christ can return:
1. Peter must become an old man. John 21: ...Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.”
2. John must write the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" (AD 90-96 time frame). The churches had to be warned.
3. The Gospel must be preached to all the world. Mat 24: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
There are many more examples but these are ones that should not be controversial. The Great Commission was given and is still underway. Christ could not return before this mission was completed based on His own words. You can argue about Peter and John all you want but you cannot argue that the Great Commission would have to be cut short by the return of Christ before the Gospel was preached to all the Nations for this doctrine to be true. The Great Commission is nearly completed now and certainly was not close to being done before TV, internet, and Bible translations, etc.
We are given prerequisites such as the Great Commission but following these requirements being met, we will not know when (Day or Hour) Christ will return but we can know the season. I truly believe Paul gave us an even bigger sign.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Christ returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.
This of course agrees with Daniel 7 and Jesus.
The 7 spirits (angels/messengers) to the 7 churches get the warning, not the churches themselves directly. “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write", etc. The original 7 churches are long gone but their spirits remain and exist today. These 7 churches are the witnesses of Jesus Christ today and during Satan's Great Tribulation. These seven relate particularly to the Godhead, to God the Father, and most particularly to Jesus Christ. They represent the seven eyes of Christ (Revelation 5:6). They report back what is going on in this earth. They represent the seven angels that blow the seven trumpets and they represent the angels in charge of the seven ekklesias mentioned here. These spirits, those angels, are under the charge of Jesus Christ and they represent His eyes on the whole world. This is a long topic which I cannot fully explain in one post.
Correct, one of the churches (Philadelphia) is "kept from" not raptured from, Satan's Great Tribulation. Correct, God does allow everything. After all, God created Satan. But it's a stretch to blame God for all the murder and evil Satan will soon be bringing forth against God's chosen.
Rev 12:12 ...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
1. How do you think Satan's wrath is manifested?
2. When do you think Satan's wrath takes place relative to the return of Christ, before or after?
3. Who do you think is responsible for putting the Great Multitude (which come out of Great Tribulation) in heaven?
4. Is there any false religion active in the world today that hates Jews and Christians enough to behead them?
...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image...
Did God behead those mentioned above or did Satan's Islamic servants do it?
If you study BABYLON, the MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS there is only one conclusion about which false religion it is. Hint: It isn't the Roman Catholic Church in spite of their short comings.
Does the Church have to be mentioned by name in those chapters to be here? You don't understand how the seals, trumpets and bowls work. You think they are all part of the Great Tribulation when they are not. The seals are like an index, they contain the details inside. Once opened you get more details like reading a book.
Almost the entire book of Revelation is about the final beast Kingdom and it's false religion - ISLAM. ISLAM is described in Rev 13, 17 & 18 and by Daniel. ISLAM as a religion has been around since the 600s with Mohammed. But, it is just getting started as the murdering machine of the end times.
You have to understand what is important to God and what makes Him angry. What is the first commandment?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
Pay close attention to the above commandment. DO NOT MAKE A CARVED IMAGE OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN... DO NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR SERVE THEM.
How did the Babylonians of Daniel's day worship?
Dan 3: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”
Do you see any similarities below with how they worshiped in Daniel's day and the punishment for not obeying to what John saw in the end times?:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Rev 18: [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
What religion follows EXACTLY what the Babylonians did complete with an image (Kaaba Stone), the bowing down, and even the music? If you cannot see the truth my friend, then you never will because it is staring you right in the face!!!
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Re: This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL
Negatives cannot be proven, they can only be disproven, which falls to you, since you deny the negative.
Imminent means nothing bars the rapture from occurring now.
However, the man of lawlessness must be revealed first (2Th 2:3), before the rapture (2Th 2:1).
You don't know Christian history very well.
Negatives cannot be proven, they can only be disproven, which falls to you, since you deny the negative.
Imminent means nothing bars the rapture from occurring now.
However, the man of lawlessness must be revealed first (2Th 2:3), before the rapture (2Th 2:1).
You don't know Christian history very well.
There is going to be a rapture eventually, just not when most think. The Rapture happens at the return of God, not at the return of Christ. It has to happen at the end as flesh cannot enter heaven.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
God will bring those who sleep in Jesus when God returns.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John,[SUP][/SUP] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[SUP][/SUP] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And He said to me, “It is done...
When God comes, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to the Father and they will be all in all.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
Christ has many enemies to defeat before DEATH is finally defeated. As Paul teaches, DEATH, is the Last enemy to be defeated.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Again, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus, on the final day of earth, all remaining and alive will need to be changed.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
The last trumpet is "the Trumpet of God."
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord (God) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
God will bring those who sleep in Jesus when God returns.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John,[SUP][/SUP] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[SUP][/SUP] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And He said to me, “It is done...
When God comes, Jesus will turn the kingdom over to the Father and they will be all in all.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
Christ has many enemies to defeat before DEATH is finally defeated. As Paul teaches, DEATH, is the Last enemy to be defeated.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Again, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus, on the final day of earth, all remaining and alive will need to be changed.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
The last trumpet is "the Trumpet of God."
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord (God) Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
ELIN, since you made the dogmatic statement about
pre-trib rapture theory not occurring before 19th century, you have to prove it or retract.
If you made a negative statement which you admit cannot be proven, that does not give me any burden of proof whatsoever. I have burden of proof only when I make an assertion to prove my assertion. And you have the burden of proof for your claims, even if they are negative & already they cannot be proven. So the logical thing is for you simply to retract. You can say you don't know of any example of that theory, which is just a claim of your ignorance.
2 THes 2 says nothing about the Man of Sin preceding the Rapture. You make the blunder of identifying the "Day of the Lord" with the rapture; but DoL never means the rapture nor the 2nd coming per se. Do a concordance check of the expression to find that it refers to a time of God's destructive judgment, which the Rapture is not. The theme of Zephaniah is The Day of the Lord. Go read it.
Your failure to prove purgatory from the Bible is not supported by saying I am ignorant of Church History. I have a major in History & have taught Church History in Graduate school! In my library are the so-called "church fathers," in which I have done research. But what the church fathers taught, is not my topic.
pre-trib rapture theory not occurring before 19th century, you have to prove it or retract.
If you made a negative statement which you admit cannot be proven, that does not give me any burden of proof whatsoever. I have burden of proof only when I make an assertion to prove my assertion. And you have the burden of proof for your claims, even if they are negative & already they cannot be proven. So the logical thing is for you simply to retract. You can say you don't know of any example of that theory, which is just a claim of your ignorance.
2 THes 2 says nothing about the Man of Sin preceding the Rapture. You make the blunder of identifying the "Day of the Lord" with the rapture; but DoL never means the rapture nor the 2nd coming per se. Do a concordance check of the expression to find that it refers to a time of God's destructive judgment, which the Rapture is not. The theme of Zephaniah is The Day of the Lord. Go read it.
Your failure to prove purgatory from the Bible is not supported by saying I am ignorant of Church History. I have a major in History & have taught Church History in Graduate school! In my library are the so-called "church fathers," in which I have done research. But what the church fathers taught, is not my topic.
Plain Word: Thanks for bringing my attention to the involvement of God in the Rapture, not merely the Lord Jesus. Seems to me that most of what you posted is irrelevant & not about the Rapture at all. But your 1 Thes 4 ref is about the Rapture. 1 Thes 3-4 has this:
Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you: and the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we also do toward you; to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Finally then, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as ye received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, even as ye do walk,— that ye abound more and more. For ye know what charge we gave you through the Lord Jesus. ... For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The passage is about the coming of the Lord Jesus not a coming of God. Lord = the Lord Jesus, not "God." God is the bringer.
I see no reason to interpret the word bring (ago) to imply that he who brings goes with the bringee.
ἄξει < ἄγω Verb future active indicative third singular
BDAG Lexican on ἄγω ago.
1. to direct the movement of an object from one position to another
a. lead, bring, lead off, lead away w. acc. Example: ὁ θεὸς ἤγαγεν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ σωτῆρα Ἰησοῦν [God brought to Israel a savior, Jesus ] Acts 13:23. I don't think this implies that God made a trip with the Lord Jesus to Israel. But if God does come at the Rapture, that does not negate the fact that this is at the coming of the Lord Jesus.
Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you: and the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we also do toward you; to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Finally then, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as ye received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, even as ye do walk,— that ye abound more and more. For ye know what charge we gave you through the Lord Jesus. ... For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The passage is about the coming of the Lord Jesus not a coming of God. Lord = the Lord Jesus, not "God." God is the bringer.
I see no reason to interpret the word bring (ago) to imply that he who brings goes with the bringee.
ἄξει < ἄγω Verb future active indicative third singular
BDAG Lexican on ἄγω ago.
1. to direct the movement of an object from one position to another
a. lead, bring, lead off, lead away w. acc. Example: ὁ θεὸς ἤγαγεν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ σωτῆρα Ἰησοῦν [God brought to Israel a savior, Jesus ] Acts 13:23. I don't think this implies that God made a trip with the Lord Jesus to Israel. But if God does come at the Rapture, that does not negate the fact that this is at the coming of the Lord Jesus.
The claim of a pre-trib rapture comes from Cameron Rhoades and the Unaccredited Tyndale Theological Seminary In Hurst Texas, this seminary building is the size of a 3 car garage, located on pipeline Avenue
It was through a biased Cameron Rhoades and his translation of a Latin Text that a claim of a pre-trib rapture is seen, Rhoades is a promoter of a pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism
Wikipedia: Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem
Controversy arose within evangelicalism after Cameron Rhoades, a professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, a private Christian seminary located in Fort Worth, Texas, produced the first translation of the Latin text into English in 1995. Statements within this document suggest that some in the early church held to a pretribulational rapture—the belief that Christ will return to gather resurrected believers in Christ and living believers into the clouds to take them to Heaven and away from the Tribulation.
Wikipedia: Tyndale Theological Seminary is an American private Christian seminary with its campus in Hurst, Texas. It has chosen not to seek state accreditation for religious reasons.
It was through a biased Cameron Rhoades and his translation of a Latin Text that a claim of a pre-trib rapture is seen, Rhoades is a promoter of a pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism
Wikipedia: Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem
Controversy arose within evangelicalism after Cameron Rhoades, a professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, a private Christian seminary located in Fort Worth, Texas, produced the first translation of the Latin text into English in 1995. Statements within this document suggest that some in the early church held to a pretribulational rapture—the belief that Christ will return to gather resurrected believers in Christ and living believers into the clouds to take them to Heaven and away from the Tribulation.
Wikipedia: Tyndale Theological Seminary is an American private Christian seminary with its campus in Hurst, Texas. It has chosen not to seek state accreditation for religious reasons.