THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Well I have already answered ... and as far as I know you don't decide how or when I must answer? So lets stay on the topic or go to that thread and we can discuss the issue there.
I am on topic, and once again you have not answered the question.
No I do not decide when you answer, but avoidance to give a simple yes or no is a very tell tell sign.
If you was to ask me the same question I would quickly say yes, for there is no reason not to answer it, avoid it, or beat around the bush answering it.

Remember Lord Jesus said to let your yes be yes, and your no be no. For He does not want us living and given indecisive answers to one another, but to be straight forward and honest with each other. So why do you not answer, and just speaking of another thread does not answer it.
And this does fit the topic as the law and sin do go hand and hand, as if it wasn't for the law we would not know what are sins are. And if it wasn't for God's grace we would not have a way to be cleansed of those sins.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I am on topic, and once again you have not answered the question.
No I do not decide when you answer, but avoidance to give a simple yes or no is a very tell tell sign.
If you was to ask me the same question I would quickly say yes, for there is no reason not to answer it, avoid it, or beat around the bush answering it.

Remember Lord Jesus said to let your yes be yes, and your no be no. For He does not want us living and given indecisive answers to one another, but to be straight forward and honest with each other. So why do you not answer, and just speaking of another thread does not answer it.
And this does fit the topic as the law and sin do go hand and hand, as if it wasn't for the law we would not know what are sins are. And if it wasn't for God's grace we would not have a way to be cleansed of those sins.
Well my answer was that I have spent the time to express my understanding on confession... So my answer is still the same ...my no is still no... :)
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"
You know many don't even seem to know what covenant they are under or why they continue in bondage to sin....They don't understand what laws they are under of what they really transgress before God... A believer confesses a sin against the law of Moses does not understand the truth of the gospel.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


You cannot break the law of Moses and be a believer at the same time. If your under the law you are not a true believer in Christ.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Well my answer was that I have spent the time to express my understanding on confession... So my answer is still the same ...my no is still no... :)

Then you are still living in an impure life if you do or did not confess your sins that you did today, yesterday, or in the last month or so........And no to confess your sins when and if you commit one was not started by the RCC.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
You know many don't even seem to know what covenant they are under or why they continue in bondage to sin....They don't understand what laws they are under of what they really transgress before God... A believer confesses a sin against the law of Moses does not understand the truth of the gospel.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


You cannot break the law of Moses and be a believer at the same time. If your under the law you are not a true believer in Christ.

No we know what covenant we are under, as it is the new covenant of our salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The issue at hands is those of you who think the 10 Commandments do not apply, or not to be followed. The funny thing is that Paul all through his epistles upheld the 10 Commandments, he did not toss them away.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Then you are still living in an impure life if you do or did not confess your sins that you did today, yesterday, or in the last month or so........And no to confess your sins when and if you commit one was not started by the RCC.
Well I know what life I live and I live it before the Lord :) What I know is that those under the law are slaves to sin...but those under grace are slaves to righteousness and are set free from sins power.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
No we know what covenant we are under, as it is the new covenant of our salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The issue at hands is those of you who think the 10 Commandments do not apply, or not to be followed. The funny thing is that Paul all through his epistles upheld the 10 Commandments, he did not toss them away.
No you and others don't seem to know and don't seem to understand that the law is the strength of sin...
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Well I know what life I live and I live it before the Lord :) What I know is that those under the law are slaves to sin...but those under grace are slaves to righteousness and are set free from sins power.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace

Giving confession for your sins shows that you are not under the law, and that sins do not have dominion over you.
If the law of sin had dominion over a person then they would not confess, because they would feel no need to as they would believe what they are doing is not wrong.
Those who are under grace and lead by the Holy Spirit will feel the Lord rebuking, convicting, chastising them for that sin they committed. This is how it shows for sure you are under grace and not under the law of sin.
For the bible clearly says that if you feel Him chastising you when you sin, then you are a child of God ( sheep ). And then the bible makes it clear that if you don't feel that chastising then you are illegitimate ( goat ).
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
No you and others don't seem to know and don't seem to understand that the law is the strength of sin...

I showed a chart just the other day, and it gave all the scriptures were Paul upheld the 10 Commandments, and showed that a child of God ( born again believer ) will do the same. I will repost it for you again if you like, but it shows everwhere that Paul showed where he and other believers will keep the 10 Commandments.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Giving confession for your sins shows that you are not under the law, and that sins do not have dominion over you.
If the law of sin had dominion over a person then they would not confess, because they would feel no need to as they would believe what they are doing is not wrong.
Those who are under grace and lead by the Holy Spirit will feel the Lord rebuking, convicting, chastising them for that sin they committed. This is how it shows for sure you are under grace and not under the law of sin.
For the bible clearly says that if you feel Him chastising you when you sin, then you are a child of God ( sheep ). And then the bible makes it clear that if you don't feel that chastising then you are illegitimate ( goat ).
If your in bondage to sin...of course you want confession to excuse your sinful lifestyle.... But a believer in the grace of God is a slave to righteousness ...not sin!
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
If your in bondage to sin...of course you want confession to excuse your sinful lifestyle.... But a believer in the grace of God is a slave to righteousness ...not sin!
Then you ignore scripture for it clearly says to know that you are a son of God, saved born again believer.
You will feel chastising from Him when you sin. Do you feel that chastising when you commit a sin ?
The bible says by this is one way you will know that you are His.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Then you ignore scripture for it clearly says to know that you are a son of God, saved born again believer.
You will feel chastising from Him when you sin. Do you feel that chastising when you commit a sin ?
The bible says by this is one way you will know that you are His.
Like I said before its silly to discuss these issues of repentance and correction with folks that don't even understand the difference between law and grace...or even what standard a believer is judged by in Christ. So if you wont believe what the bible says on the issue of the law...why would I waste time trying to explain the truths of New Testament correction?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Like I said before its silly to discuss these issues of repentance and correction with folks that don't even understand the difference between law and grace...or even what standard a believer is judged by in Christ. So if you wont believe what the bible says on the issue of the law...why would I waste time trying to explain the truths of New Testament correction?

I do believe what the bible says about the law and grace, it is you that keeps failing to actually read and take into account all those other scriptures that people have been showing you that disagrees with your position that future sins are automatically forgiven by a one time repentance 10 or more years ago.
Nowhere does the bible do say future sins are automatically covered unless you misuse scripture or take it out of context like you have done, that others have shown you.
You have to much pride in yourself in thinking you are 100% right, and will not even look into the scriptures that others have shown you.

For instance Hebrews 12:5-8 I have given you twice now.
This is not speaking about unbelievers, or those when they first came to Christ.
It is talking about and to born again believers that in their walk in the faith when and if they sin, they will be chastised (convicted) by the Lord. This is done through the Holy Spirit, for you grieve the Holy Spirit each time you as a believer sins. Then that chastising will lead you to repentance and confession of that sin.
It says clearly if you do not feel that chastising as a believer then you are not one of His sons.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I do believe what the bible says about the law and grace, it is you that keeps failing to actually read and take into account all those other scriptures that people have been showing you that disagrees with your position that future sins are automatically forgiven by a one time repentance 10 or more years ago.
Nowhere does the bible do say future sins are automatically covered unless you misuse scripture or take it out of context like you have done, that others have shown you.
You have to much pride in yourself in thinking you are 100% right, and will not even look into the scriptures that others have shown you.

For instance Hebrews 12:5-8 I have given you twice now.
This is not speaking about unbelievers, or those when they first came to Christ.
It is talking about and to born again believers that in their walk in the faith when and if they sin, they will be chastised (convicted) by the Lord. This is done through the Holy Spirit, for you grieve the Holy Spirit each time you as a believer sins. Then that chastising will lead you to repentance and confession of that sin.
It says clearly if you do not feel that chastising as a believer then you are not one of His sons.
Look you keep wanting to go change the topic to issues that you cannot possibly understand until you have a understanding of the law and grace...which you clearly do not! The law is the strength of sin...and grace is the power over sin....how can you think to deal with issues of sin and correction when you don't even understand these truths?
 
A

authorgracebook

Guest
Grace cures the disease of sin, which is defined as breaking the law by 1 John 3:4. Grace is Jesus in us who empowers us to keep His law.
 
W

weakness

Guest
come on Mitspa...you are the one saying....

are you retracting your statement??? you said nothing about stirring up....so does the commandment produce sinful lust or not???[/QUOTE I don't think the commandment produces sin in our lives, I think It exposes are already sinful nature. As scripture says ..how would I know lust is wrong unless except the law showed us it is wrong. As it says that sin taking occasion by the commandment( which was just and good) wrought in me all manner of lust. Man had sinful lust before the law. But sin is not imputed where there is no Law.Jesus said that ye have heard it said ,thou shall not commit adultery. But I say unto you whosoever even looks upon a woman with lust in his heart ,has committed adultery. The new covenant has changed the focus from outward to inward. And reflects as to whether we have a new heart, a circumcised heart. And to whether we have been born again ,by the Spirit of God, And whether we have the Nature of God in us through the Holy Spirit. Unless our righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We have been made children of God by adoption where by we can cry abba Father. Paul said he sees a law waring in his members, that when he would do Good evil is present. And another law working in his members , waring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into the captivity of the law of sin and death ,which is in his members. Paul cries out to God "o wretched man that I am, who shall delivery me from the body of this death. The thanks God through Jesus Christ, and says so with my mind I serve the law of God , but with the flesh the law of sin.Therefore now ther is no condemnation ,for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death. For we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if we have the Spirit of God within us. But if any man have not the Spirit of God ,we are none of his. For if we live after the flesh we shall die, but if we through the Spirit do mortify the thing of the flesh we shall live. It goes without saying that this liberty in Christ is not a license to sin, for to whom we yield ourselves servants to , of those we are servant of . Whether of sin unto death or as servants of God unto righteousness.
 
W

weakness

Guest
I ask you a simple question and you keep spewing rubbish....you say
We agree Christ had no sin to stir up....
but you say the law produces sinful passions in those under the law...Christ was under the law...was he not??what are the sinful passions produced in Christ...this is the comment I am concerned about...either you show me the sinful passion the law produced in Christ or retract your statement...
by your statement you are blaming the one who wrote the law for sin...since you claim the law produces sin....you are insinuating that the law made you steal because it says thou shall not steal....that is just sick by any standard Mitspa....[/QUOTE I believe that Jesus was capable of sinning.But chose not to. Else how could he be tempted in all manner like unto us This speaks to the faith of the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father For the Father put all he had as God on the line by his faith in the Son.
 
H

haz

Guest
under the law of the Spirit do you now make the other law void?
You seem to be missing the point about who is under the jurisdiction of which law.
As Mitspa said in another post, Americans in America are not under the jurisdiction of the laws in Mexico.

I explained in an earlier post, the law of sin and death still remains. And it is in force over those without Christ (that is legalists and other non-believers).

Both laws exist simultaneously, but they apply to different types of people.

For Christians, being under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are thus set free from the law of sin and death, Rom 8:2

Rom8:1.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe, Rom 10:4.

Gal 5:18
if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

So I hope you now accept that we under grace acknowledge that the law of sin and death is still around. It's just that it does not apply to Christians. Christians are not under the jurisdiction of the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Thus Satan, the accuser (Rev 12:10,11) cannot charge us with sin/transgression of the law.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth


this body that is dead by faith...can you commit sin with it and escape the penalty of the law?
1Cor 6:18
Flee (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body (of Christ that Christians abide in ); but he that committeth (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar) sinneth against his own body (of Christ).

Rom 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6)because of sin.

That physical body of Christians, which is already dead because of sin, is dead because the death penalty under the law has already been executed. It was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.

Christians are now a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20. Christians now see Christ in ourselves and each other, just as God does. Hence we do not preach that righteousness is determined by deeds of the law. Our faith was counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5) when we believed on Jesus and thus we likewise preach that same message to believe n Jesus.

Also remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

And when a Christian fails and does wrong it is not sin that can be charged against us. Remember that physical part of us is already dead because of sin, Rom 8:10. Instead we see that Christians are chastised for any physical wrong we do.

Remember also 1Cor 6:18 that for Christians, every sin that we may commit is outside the body of Christ that we abide in. Thus we do not have to face the death penalty again for sin.
As long as we continue to believe on Jesus, then our old man remains on the cross, crucified with Christ, because of it's sin, Rom 8:10.

Legalists, however, keep their old man alive and away from the cross of Christ (unbelief), earnestly determining their righteousness by keeping the law.

you are contending that one who is under the law of the Spirit and does not make the law void....is dead to the flesh and does not sin.....and if they do sin they confess them...are legalists ...and make themselves sinners????
What I understand from the doctrine you, Kenneth, etc preach is that we're unrighteous when we do not obey the law perfectly. What I've heard from you guys is judgement and condemnation under the law. And remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

You guys preach a precarious see-saw righteousness where one is constantly in and out of righteousness depending on whether they've managed to keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions. Such doctrines are error not supported in scripture.
 
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H

haz

Guest

2 Corinthians 7:9
Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you sorrowed to repentance: for you were made sorry after a godly manner, that you might suffer loss by us in nothing

Consider the context for 2Cor 7. It's not referring to deeds of the law as you wrongly suspect.

2Cor 6:14-17
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?

For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”


17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,

And I will receive you.”



The Corinthians in 2Cor 7 repented of being unequally yoked with non-believers.

This is a reference to 1Cor 5 where it speaks of he who is into spiritual sexual immorality with his father's (the devil, John 8:44) wife (Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

The Corinthians had amongst their members legalists (non-believers) preaching the law for righteousness.

1Cor 5:7 confirms the context of spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar when it says to "purge out the old leaven" (remember that "leaven" is how Jesus described the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law of the Pharisees, Matt 16:12).

1Cor 5:11-13 warns that we should not be keeping company with these legalists (non-believers), just as 2Cor 6:17 wrans that we should be separate from such people.

The Corinthians were repenting (2Cor 7:10) of their actions of tolerating these legalists (non-believers) within their congregation. Christians should not allow anyone who preaches deeds of the law for righteousness, within their congregations.

Gal 5:9 tells us why we should not be unequally yoked with such non-believers.
Gal 5:9
A little leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Leaven represents sin...sin is the transgression of the Law....