THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Proverbs 28:13 - He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.


2 Corinthians 7:9-11 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Acts 20:21 - Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 8:22 - Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

1 Peter 2:25 - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Hebrews 12:17 - For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Romans 2:4 - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


Acts 26:20 - But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Mark 6:12 - And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


Matthew 21:29 - He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Hebrews 6:6 - and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

this does not prove your point.

the sacrificial system of the law showed us what would take away sin.

show continued repentance and confession in the law of sacrifice on the day of atonement.

the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, What part of the sacrificial law brings us to the knowledge of Christ, since Christ was called the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[kennethcadwell]

this does not prove your point.

the sacrificial system of the law showed us what would take away sin.

show continued repentance and confession in the law of sacrifice on the day of atonement.

the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, What part of the sacrificial law brings us to the knowledge of Christ, since Christ was called the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

What I am saying has nothing to do with the mosaic law, it is about one obtains forgiveness of sins through our Lord Jesus Christ. In order to have His sacrificial blood to cover your sins and blot them out, you have to confess them for forgiveness and repent of them. To repent of your sins means that once you had that change of mind, you turn from wanting to walk in them any longer and accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help you in that area.
If you continue to do that sin the bible makes it clear that it is not a true repentance, and you will not be forgiven of it. And you have to have that forgiveness to be given eternal life.
If you look at a number of those scriptures the context in them it says that the conviction you feel from Him will lead you to repentance.

 

[passinthru]

Getting somewhere? I been pounding this for days now... so you admit only love fulfills the law right? And the bible describes what Gods love is right? It don't steal ...or lie etc... covet and it don't judge others by a standard it don't keep...right?

AMEN Mispa! God is love. Love held Jesus on the cross. Jesus lived under the law tempted in every way we are but yet without sin. He asked in the Garden " any other way " (paraphrased sorry) but then said " Not my will but thine be done". He went to the cross as an innocent person and laid down his life for all here. (No man takes my life from me I lay it down). He was the perfect lamb of God who fulfilled the law for us a lost and dying world. Yes, despising the shame but also saying " forgive them for they know not what they do".....Then later on after Peter rejected him and He said...." tell the guys I am here ..and tell Peter too" . Praise GOD (Yah ...Hiz) that we have been set free from th echains that held us....the chains of law that defined sin and that sin has been defeated by the Blood of the LAMB. This my friends is the good news....if we believe it we will do what is pleasing to Him and when we slip we know that we have an intercessor sitting on the right hand of the Father. So why argue law vs grace? Divisions amongst the body of Christ? Not good.,,,,,lets go ye and tell others how Great GOD (Yah) is and what Jesus has done for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I am saying has nothing to do with the mosaic law, it is about one obtains forgiveness of sins through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mosaic law SHOWED US HOW TO OBTAIN FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

Why do you think God had millions of animals killed all those years? For nothing?

In order to have His sacrificial blood to cover your sins and blot them out, you have to confess them for forgiveness and repent of them. To repent of your sins means that once you had that change of mind, you turn from wanting to walk in them any longer and accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help you in that area.
If you continue to do that sin the bible makes it clear that it is not a true repentance, and you will not be forgiven of it. And you have to have that forgiveness to be given eternal life.
If you look at a number of those scriptures the context in them it says that the conviction you feel from Him will lead you to repentance.

On the day of atonement, the whole nation of Isreal did not come and confess their sins to the high priest so their sins could be passed over by the sacrificial lamb.

sorry Ken, your missing the whole point of the law and the system God used as a schoolmaster or tutor. to show us what God was going to do. and what we need to do.

 

[Hizikyah]

Getting somewhere? I been pounding this for days now... so you admit only love fulfills the law right? And the bible describes what Gods love is right? It don't steal ...or lie etc... covet and it don't judge others by a standard it don't keep...right?

Oh Mitspa.

Do you not know the difference between calling a sin a sin and judging another person?

It seems you do not. I do not say this in a disrespectful manner, but with a literal sigh.

Do you know what a "reprobate" was?

What did Peter and Paul say about people who were reprobates?

This is one reason why sin ahs run rampant in the churches, people dont put a difference between right and wrong.

"No but rather it is judgemental and hateful to correct someone."

LOL, that is not the Spirit of Yah to allow falsehood.

Titus 1:9, "Holding fast the teaching according to the faithful word in order that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and to refute those who contradict."

Please take this in a even tone: all you do is quote Paul, that is virtually it, you isolate verses and use your own words, which are ususaly close to truth, but not 100% in line with Scriputre IMO, thats IMO.

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:4, "He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law(entole), is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

2 Timothy 4:2-3, "Preach the word Be instant; ready to take your positions in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears."

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt."

Luke 17:3-4, "So be on your guard! If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him! But if he repents, forgive him! And if he trespasses against you seven times in one day, and seven times in that day turns to you, and says; I repent; then you must forgive him."

Proverbs 27:5-6, "Open rebuke is better than concealed love. Faithful are the wounds from a friend, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful."

The

 

[passinthru]

What I am saying has nothing to do with the mosaic law, it is about one obtains forgiveness of sins through our Lord Jesus Christ. In order to have His sacrificial blood to cover your sins and blot them out, you have to confess them for forgiveness and repent of them. To repent of your sins means that once you had that change of mind, you turn from wanting to walk in them any longer and accept the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help you in that area.
If you continue to do that sin the bible makes it clear that it is not a true repentance, and you will not be forgiven of it. And you have to have that forgiveness to be given eternal life.
If you look at a number of those scriptures the context in them it says that the conviction you feel from Him will lead you to repentance.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Mat 5:19[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[kennethcadwell]

Mosaic law SHOWED US HOW TO OBTAIN FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

Why do you think God had millions of animals killed all those years? For nothing?


On the day of atonement, the whole nation of Isreal did not come and confess their sins to the high priest so their sins could be passed over by the sacrificial lamb.

sorry Ken, your missing the whole point of the law and the system God used as a schoolmaster or tutor. to show us what God was going to do. and what we need to do.

Because once again I am not talking about the Mosaic law.

I am talking about how our Lord Jesus said you have to do in order to be forgiven of your sins, this has nothing to do with the mosaic law.
Lord Jesus said you had to repent of them, ask forgiveness of them, and to forgive others of theirs. Only then does His blood cover them. The law was a tutor to show us what are sins were, and are need for a savior. Now that we have a savior we no longer need that tutor, only His commands on how to receive His forgiveness of our sins.

 

[Hizikyah]

I want to talk about this..... "LAW" scary old law lol....

No I want to talk about this Instruction from Yahweh.

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."

In most modern churches they teach correctin is "judgemental" and real love is, "allowing othre to be lied to" now we know this is not what they literally say, yet it is what most places I have been to practice, by their literal actions. No im not perfect I do sin, and I think a brother or sister when I am rightly corrected.

If it dark out and im about to walk off a cliff I want someone to tell me, "hey stop walking its a cliff!" not, well hes kind of far from us and I would have to yell for him to hear me, so eve though he is about to fall off that cliff, I wont say anything because that would be rude.

silly example I know, but is this not metaphorically what is happening?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because once again I am not talking about the Mosaic law.

It does not matter if your talking about mosaic law or not.

If your going to talk about forgiveness of sin, Your forced to talk about mosaic law. to deny this, is to deny how sin is forgiven.

Paul said the law was aour tutor. it showed us what we need to know about Christ and forgiveness.

ignoring this is your problem. it is why you can not see how sin is truly forgiven.

I am talking about how our Lord Jesus said you have to do in order to be forgiven of your sins, this has nothing to do with the mosaic law.
Lord Jesus said you had to repent of them, ask forgiveness of them, and to forgive others of theirs. Only then does His blood cover them. The law was a tutor to show us what are sins were, and are need for a savior. Now that we have a savior we no longer need that tutor, only His commands on how to receive His forgiveness of our sins.

Well. you still need the tutor. because the law has not shown you yet how to have forgiveness of sin.

 

[Hizikyah]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Mat 5:19[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I have to ask.

So would it be a better thing to teach for and do or teach against and dont do said Commands?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I want to talk about this..... "LAW" scary old law lol....

No I want to talk about this Instruction from Yahweh.

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."

In most modern churches they teach correctin is "judgemental" and real love is, "allowing othre to be lied to" now we know this is not what they literally say, yet it is what most places I have been to practice, by their literal actions. No im not perfect I do sin, and I think a brother or sister when I am rightly corrected.

If it dark out and im about to walk off a cliff I want someone to tell me, "hey stop walking its a cliff!" not, well hes kind of far from us and I would have to yell for him to hear me, so eve though he is about to fall off that cliff, I wont say anything because that would be rude.

silly example I know, but is this not metaphorically what is happening?

correction is judgmental if it is overdone or not done the right way, or done to a non believer who does nto have the capacity or knowledge to be corrected.

 

[Hizikyah]

It does not matter if your talking about mosaic law or not.

If your going to talk about forgiveness of sin, Your forced to talk about mosaic law. to deny this, is to deny how sin is forgiven.

Paul said the law was aour tutor. it showed us what we need to know about Christ and forgiveness.

ignoring this is your problem. it is why you can not see how sin is truly forgiven.



Well. you still need the tutor. because the law has not shown you yet how to have forgiveness of sin.

You just said you need the Law for forgiveness...

well how is there forgiveness if there is no Law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to ask.

So would it be a better thing to teach for and do or teach against and dont do said Commands?

it is better to teach love, because if you love, you will not break the commands.

saying do or don't do something has been proven very ineffective to stop sin. The jews proved that. as do kids..as do employees. as do (insert any of the other many examples)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You just said you need the Law for forgiveness...

well how is there forgiveness if there is no Law?

no. I just said the law shows how forgiveness is granted.

how is there forgiveness if there is no law? Ask Adam, And noah, And abraham Isaac and jacob.

they had no law. but had forgiveness.

 

[Hizikyah]

correction is judgmental if it is overdone or not done the right way, or done to a non believer who does nto have the capacity or knowledge to be corrected.

I woudnt say it judgemental, because that has changed the meaning.

but I do agree that idea but like this:

correction is "in error" if it is overdone or not done the right way, or done to a non believer who does nto have the capacity or knowledge to be corrected.

but in no way is calling murder, murder being judgmental.

there is a right and wrong way to do it, and no I dont always say and do the right thing I know.

but no matter how it is approached, if I have a friend that say they follows and is doing witchcraft, it is not judgmental for me to say, "hey that is wrong"


I believe that Yahweh's Instructions are valid, If I was to sit by and let my famiyl commit pagan practices without even saying something, im in error.:

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."

 

[kennethcadwell]

It does not matter if your talking about mosaic law or not.

If your going to talk about forgiveness of sin, Your forced to talk about mosaic law. to deny this, is to deny how sin is forgiven.

Paul said the law was aour tutor. it showed us what we need to know about Christ and forgiveness.

ignoring this is your problem. it is why you can not see how sin is truly forgiven.



Well. you still need the tutor. because the law has not shown you yet how to have forgiveness of sin.

No we who are under the new covenant are not forced to speak of the mosaic law of animal sacrifice for sins, because that is not how we are forgiven of those sins because we do not have to do that.
We are forgiven of sins by our Lords personal sacrifice, when we repent and confess them for forgiveness.
Without repentance and confession of them they are not forgiven by His blood that He sacrificed for us.........

 

[Hizikyah]

no. I just said the law shows how forgiveness is granted.

how is there forgiveness if there is no law? Ask Adam, And noah, And abraham Isaac and jacob.

they had no law. but had forgiveness.

I agree with the general idea, not going to get into that now.

but the mercy we have recieved came from the Law of Yahweh (commonly called "Mosaic law") if this Law was no longer in place, how could we being born 2,000 years later receive a mercy that only came through what is called extinct (Law)...

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

This prophecy is about the END END END END. and Yah is saying remember;

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No we who are under the new covenant are not forced to speak of the mosaic law of animal sacrifice for sins, because that is not how we are forgiven of those sins because we do not have to do that.
We are forgiven of sins by our Lords personal sacrifice, when we repent and confess them for forgiveness.
Without repentance and confession of them they are not forgiven by His blood that He sacrificed for us.........

I do not know why I bother.

What did animal sacrifice teach you about Gods forgivess Ken. Do you even know?

we ar not under it, because it was just a tutor for us, it shows us what Christ would do and what we would do.

did you learn anything by studying the law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I woudnt say it judgemental, because that has changed the meaning.

but I do agree that idea but like this:

correction is "in error" if it is overdone or not done the right way, or done to a non believer who does nto have the capacity or knowledge to be corrected.

but in no way is calling murder, murder being judgmental.

there is a right and wrong way to do it, and no I dont always say and do the right thing I know.

but no matter how it is approached, if I have a friend that say they follows and is doing witchcraft, it is not judgmental for me to say, "hey that is wrong"


I believe that Yahweh's Instructions are valid, If I was to sit by and let my famiyl commit pagan practices without even saying something, im in error.:

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."

if you see a brother sin, and do not confront him, you might as well be giving him permission to sin.

 

[passinthru]

I have to ask.

So would it be a better thing to teach for and do or teach against and dont do said Commands?

Duh,,,,LOL....we are on the same page I think. We 'do' because 'He (Jesus) Did' ..... we don't 'do' to earn we 'do' because of Love. We do however have an advocate in Jesus. I am quite sure you do not beleive that we earn salvation by works. I would hope that you belive that works are a product of salvation initiated by faith that works by love. Correct? Please don't say " I will answer this if....." LOL