THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
we're not under Law, but grace.

and the cool thing about being under grace is...we're free to love the Law!
it can no longer condemn us!
and it's a reflection of God's character and nature, so...what's not to love? :)
amen,

Nothing like being able to study the law without fear.. WHich I always had every time I studied it, until I found true grace,//

it was then that I learned the law. and all the beauty that was in it through Christ.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
No

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. And save the world.

this is what saves us. All the repenting and confessing in the world will nto remove 1 sin. Only the blood of Jesus can remove sin

Luke 13:3


I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Rom 8:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Right because being under the law produces sinful lust... And we admit the law is good but we are not under it.
I personally subject myself to it.

Does not mean Im perfect, but tha is the standard I know Yah has set, so I do love it and want Him to guide me to be what the Law explains. You know how Messiah was "the ultimate goal" of the Instructions. Amazing!

and I would add that not being subject to Yahweh's Law, the Creator of the universe, is a dangerous thing IMO, here is why:

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Strong's Concordance

anomia: lawlessness
Original Word: ἀνομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anomia
Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity
Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin.

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Compound that with the fact that Yahshua (Jesus) said this:

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

I would not be so eager to reject the Law of the Creator of the Universe. (especially when Paul, the man;s writing who you are using to say the Law is gone, himself said he kept it)

I don't think the issue is being perfect in obedience, I think it is about being subject to the Creator, saying, yes, Father you know what is best, guide me. Not making our own list of do's and dont's molded by our own hearts.

Added reason why I believe we should subject ourselves to the Creators Law, but do not have o be PERFECT is this:

Romans 3:25, "Whom Yahweh set forth as a sacrifice of atonement by His own blood, through the faith, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Yahweh."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

Romans 5:13, "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."


1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


The curse is gone

"do not kill" is still there.
 
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passinthru

Guest
Luke 13:3


I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Act 3:19[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Luke 13:3


I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
lol.. that says repent. which is change ones mind about themselves.

You can not have faith unless you repent. and recieve the gift of God

You say continually repent.

show me that in the law of sacrifices. where does continuous repenting come in?

do you even understand what the laws of sacrifice represented?
 
P

psychomom

Guest
amen,

Nothing like being able to study the law without fear.. WHich I always had every time I studied it, until I found true grace,//

it was then that I learned the law. and all the beauty that was in it through Christ.
amen, brother!

the Law should be terrifying to those who are not in Christ.

oh, the beautiful freedom He gave us!
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Right because being under the law produces sinful lust... And we admit the law is good but we are not under it.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Romans 7:7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

Romans 7:12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Rom 8:2[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

no two better verses to prove the eternal security of those in Christ based on faith in his word.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Its all upheld in one word love and that being the commandment of Christ to love as He has loved us...this is so simple why is it so hard for some to grasp?
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Rom 7:4[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:5[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Its all upheld in one word love and that being the commandment of Christ to love as He has loved us...this is so simple why is it so hard for some to grasp?
Now we are getting somewhere.

This is what I have been waiting for!

So what is love?

What I thought love was when I was 20 is different than what I think love is today...

And I without a doubt believe what the Creator says love is, is different from what my brain understands as love.

So what standard equals love according to Scripture?

Not according to human thought, but according to Him.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:8[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:10[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:11[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:12[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Rom 7:13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Now we are getting somewhere.

This is what I have been waiting for!

So what is love?

What I thought love was when I was 20 is different than what I think love is today...

And I without a doubt believe what the Creator says love is, is different from what my brain understands as love.

So what standard equals love according to Scripture?

Not according to human thought, but according to Him.

anything not of self, is love.

Jesus uses the word agape here. which is a term of endearment love, the greatest love of all. a self sacrificial love. they type of Love jesus showed on the cross. A love which would give your life for.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Now we are getting somewhere.

This is what I have been waiting for!

So what is love?

What I thought love was when I was 20 is different than what I think love is today...

And I without a doubt believe what the Creator says love is, is different from what my brain understands as love.

So what standard equals love according to Scripture?

Not according to human thought, but according to Him.
Deuteronomy 6:5, "And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws(entole). For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Deuteronomy 10:16, "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and do not be stiff-necked any longer."

Love in practice, not in jaw flappin:

Leviticus 19:9-18,29-31 "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not completely harvest the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and the stranger; I am Yahweh your Father. You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie one to another. Do not vow falsely with My Name, and so profane the Name of your Father. I am Yahweh. You shall not defraud your neighbor, nor rob him. Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind; but reverence your Father. I am Yahweh. Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great. In righteousness you shall judge your neighbor fairly. You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am Yahweh. You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt. Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh.Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; or the land will fall into harlotry, and the land will become full of wickedness. Do not turn to mediums nor familiar spirits. Do not seek after them, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh. You shall stand up before the gray headed, and you shall honor the presence of an Elder or Teacher; thereby giving reverence to your Heavenly Father. I am Yahweh. If a stranger lives with you in your and, do not mistreat him. The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh. Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight, or quantity. You shall have honest balances, honest weights, an honest ephah; a dry measure, and an honest in; a liquid measure. I am Yahweh your Father Who brought you out of the land of Egypt; Therefore, you must observe all My statutes and My judgments, and perform and do them. I am Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might(Deut 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself(Lev 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yeremyah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"

If left up to man, man will say they love but it will be a twisted worldly version, not true love.


No, love is only what Yahweh says it is, anything less is falsehood.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

AGAIN I AM NOT PERFECT, but then again these are not MY words, they are His words.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Now we are getting somewhere.

This is what I have been waiting for!

So what is love?

What I thought love was when I was 20 is different than what I think love is today...

And I without a doubt believe what the Creator says love is, is different from what my brain understands as love.

So what standard equals love according to Scripture?

Not according to human thought, but according to Him.
Getting somewhere? I been pounding this for days now... so you admit only love fulfills the law right? And the bible describes what Gods love is right? It don't steal ...or lie etc... covet and it don't judge others by a standard it don't keep...right?
 
P

passinthru

Guest
If someone loves God and I feel all in this discussion do. They will try to do what they feel his will is. This is not THE LAW. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the aw of sin and death! THe loving grace of God has us covered even though we all fall short. This is the good news. NO NO NO we cannot twist the word of God to say that we should 'continue in sin that grace may abound" but if we base our salvation on works alone we are deceived. We cannot earn a Gift it is an insult. Oh wretched man that I am .... paul said. Are we any less 'wretched' than the person who wrote much of what we study? Paul understood grace and he understood through time spent with God that we should not frustrate th egrace of God by trying to earn salvation through works of the Law.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Revelation 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Proverbs 28:13 - He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.


2 Corinthians 7:9-11 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Acts 20:21 - Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 8:22 - Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

1 Peter 2:25 - For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Hebrews 12:17 - For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Romans 2:4 - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


Acts 26:20 - But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Mark 6:12 - And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


Matthew 21:29 - He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Matthew 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Hebrews 6:6 -
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.