THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Hizikyah....please explain Galatian chapter 4.
I will right after you explain who the Galatians were, what their problems were, and the other interactions Paul had with them.

Until than I will say, that any who think their works will get them to the kingdom are mistaken.

In the same way any who think they can ignore what the Creator Commands is in error.

Jesus says:

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness



Paul says:
Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Now people can take these verses:


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them.

[SUP]1 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

and turn them into rejection of Yahweh;s Law, but that is their own error, for it is written:

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

SO yes anyone can isolate a verse, chapter and use it to "justify" anomia, however if one confirms in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, they can no longer twist Scripture so easily.

Final message to mankind:

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

there is no obedience without faith

there is no faith without obedience
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest

How can repenting and asking forgiveness cause forgiveness of sin, if only the blood of Christ can cause forgiveness?

Because this is what the Lord commanded to receive His forgiveness for them, and if you do not repent and ask forgiveness of them in confession then you are doing harm to yourself by still walking in unforgiven sins as it says in Hebrews.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
I will right after you explain who the Galatians were, what their problems were, and the other interactions Paul had with them.

Until than I will say, that any who think their works will get them to the kingdom are mistaken.

In the same way any who think they can ignore what the Creator Commands is in error.

Jesus says:

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
You are great at putting a lot of information into one post. :)
I condensed it here not to ignore it or distract from it honest .... feel free to go back to it if you wish.
Anyhow....The way I understand it the Galatian's had been taught the grace of God and how they could not earn salvation through works alone. Then others came in (judizers...excuse my spelling) and were teaching them that the works of the law is what would save them. Paul came against them pretty hard. "Who has bewitched you" . Is this correct?
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Gal 3:1[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Gal 2:16[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 2:17[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 2:18[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 2:19[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 2:20[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 2:21[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Gal 3:1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:2[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:3[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
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[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Gal 3:6[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:7[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:8[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:9[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:11[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:12[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [/TD]
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[/TABLE]
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: vRefa"]Gal 3:1[/TD]
[TD="class: vDispa"]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Yes you are right at what you say, and notice how Paul also tells them they have fallen from grace.
This means they had to be once under God's saving grace, and then lost it according to Paul by them going back to trying to be justified by the law instead of staying under His grace.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
You are great at putting a lot of information into one post. :)
I condensed it here not to ignore it or distract from it honest .... feel free to go back to it if you wish.
Anyhow....The way I understand it the Galatian's had been taught the grace of God and how they could not earn salvation through works alone. Then others came in (judizers...excuse my spelling) and were teaching them that the works of the law is what would save them. Paul came against them pretty hard. "Who has bewitched you" . Is this correct?
Yeah I would say I agree with that assessment.

but would you agree there is a difference between

obedience and obedience for justification?

After all, if following the Law was "justification by works".... Peter and Paul would have fallen short. They both obeyed Yahweh's Law.

Does any obedience make one fallen?

Is there a way to obey that will make you not go to "hell"?

If I read the words of Yahshua (Jesus), and think, man He wants me to be like Him and pray I for guidance and strength am I then fallen because I....eeek, read words of instruction and wanted to do them?

Or does the Creator only accept me if I refuse to read His Instructions?

Over the top yeah?

but this is what I feel is being taught.

Think about it.

Yahshua (Jesus) stood and preached to... people..... He told.... people.... what they should..... eeeeek.... what they sould do. So what the world is telling me is if you listen to Jesus and want to do what He says, your fallen.

Of course any who think "I be good enough to go to heaven" are going to fall short, none are righteous, but that means I have to ignore everything Yahshua said, that I cant read His words over and over to bind them to my being...

all I can think of is this verse, and please dont take offence, its not to you, it HIS WORDS TO THE WORLD. (yeah and im sinful I know)

There is a huge gap between "trying to be justified by works" and obedience.

Isayah 29:, "Therefore Yahweh said: Because these people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their reverence to Me is taught by the precept of men; Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people; a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men will perish, and the understanding of their prudent men; discerning, will be hid."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Keep reading in the same chapter Paul says this:

Romans 7:25, King James Bible
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Romans 7:25 "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
 
P

passinthru

Guest
Yes you are right at what you say, and notice how Paul also tells them they have fallen from grace.
This means they had to be once under God's saving grace, and then lost it according to Paul by them going back to trying to be justified by the law instead of staying under His grace.
And so? Are we not saved by faith through the grace of a loving God? Not by works lest any man shall boast? Works are a product of salvation. The only work that we need to do to be saved is accepting Christ and what he did to set us free from th eaw of sin and death. . IS THIS AN EXCUSE TO SIN? NO NO NO and againI say No. But no man is justified by anything except Jesus Christ. ....We can't con God. To try and make His gace an excuse for sin and the lusts of th e flesh is a satanic perversion of what Jesus did! By the same token to try and earn salvation by our works and not by trusting in the precious blood of Jesus is just as bad. Sin is sin,,,,The law covered sin but Jesus' blood washed it away if we accept it. To try to pay for a gift we are slapping God in the face! Works based on anything but love toward a loving God is foolishness and a lie from the pit. Without faith it is impossible to please God. FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE! Gid IS LOVE. We have all be GIVEN a measure eof faith....we need to come to him and repent from our works and fall down before him and learn of Him and His love for us. This can only be done when we realize as Paul did " oh wretched man that I am" Without Him we ar enothing but IN CHRIST we are everything. .
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Keep reading in the same chapter Paul says this:

Romans 7:25, King James Bible
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Romans 7:25 "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
Right because being under the law produces sinful lust... And we admit the law is good but we are not under it.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
the question is if you disobey God and do not the works(obey) are you still saved? so in essence you are doing the works to continue being saved....which you accuse me of being under the law...the just shall live by faith and faith without works is dead...

the law only tells you that you are condemned....it is your sin that condemns...it is just as Me telling you that you sinned you conclude I condemn you....

the law says if you do not obey every word written, you are cursed.

Paul explained this to you in gal 3. did you not listen to him?
 
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passinthru

Guest
God is not one to sit there with a hammer ready to smash us like a bug if we stray. Faith works by Love....Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. We hear the word and through the ministry of the Holy Spirit accept it and at that point we are born into the family of God. From that point we find that many things we used to do and even think begin to seem wrong. Why? The Holy Spirit is ministering to us. We slowly begin to be more conformed to his leading more and more as we grow .Works are a product of accepting Christ not a road to salvation. Again we cannot Con God....he knows where the intent of our heart is. That is the key.
 
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psychomom

Guest
we're not under Law, but grace.

and the cool thing about being under grace is...we're free to love the Law!
it can no longer condemn us!
and it's a reflection of God's character and nature, so...what's not to love? :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Because this is what the Lord commanded to receive His forgiveness for them, and if you do not repent and ask forgiveness of them in confession then you are doing harm to yourself by still walking in unforgiven sins as it says in Hebrews.
No

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. And save the world.

this is what saves us. All the repenting and confessing in the world will nto remove 1 sin. Only the blood of Jesus can remove sin
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
And so? Are we not saved by faith through the grace of a loving God? Not by works lest any man shall boast? Works are a product of salvation. The only work that we need to do to be saved is accepting Christ and what he did to set us free from th eaw of sin and death. . IS THIS AN EXCUSE TO SIN? NO NO NO and againI say No. But no man is justified by anything except Jesus Christ. ....We can't con God. To try and make His gace an excuse for sin and the lusts of th e flesh is a satanic perversion of what Jesus did! By the same token to try and earn salvation by our works and not by trusting in the precious blood of Jesus is just as bad. Sin is sin,,,,The law covered sin but Jesus' blood washed it away if we accept it. To try to pay for a gift we are slapping God in the face! Works based on anything but love toward a loving God is foolishness and a lie from the pit. Without faith it is impossible to please God. FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE! Gid IS LOVE. We have all be GIVEN a measure eof faith....we need to come to him and repent from our works and fall down before him and learn of Him and His love for us. This can only be done when we realize as Paul did " oh wretched man that I am" Without Him we ar enothing but IN CHRIST we are everything. .

Works done out of love for the Lord are a product of salvation, however we are not forced to walk in them or controlled to do so. The Holy Spirit is our helper to guide us to walk in that way, and to help us get stronger in keeping sin from controlling our lives again. We are meant to walk that way but the bible makes it clear that it is still a choice.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

See the key word in this scripture, that we should walk in them, meaning that it is not a definite that a person will. Only if guided by true love and obedience to Him will we walk in those good works.
 
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passinthru

Guest
[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]Gal 3:13[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:14[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]


[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:16[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:17[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:18[/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. [/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
Gal 3:20[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yeah I would say I agree with that assessment.

but would you agree there is a difference between

obedience and obedience for justification?
no, obedience is obedience.

just like work is work.

they are all the same.