THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[eternally-gratefull]

…13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Your not under law only because you were saved.

Again, look at the law. Where does it say in the law anything that you are claiming?

the law was the shadow. so your salvation must agree with the shadow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with you here.

Then why do so many people disagree with me when I say just this same thing? Im told Jesus died so now it's ok. (you know this is generalized) But to say again, if we are supposed to be obedient after we accept His Sacrifice, why do 99% of Churches preach your free from the Law! Instead of;

really? I hear this alot. But I have never heard anyone say this.

I think it is just a thing the legalistic churches teach their people so they can use this as an excuse to rejected grace.

I know there are some licentious gospels out there. But I have honestly never heard it from anyone who claims to follow God. Only sinners trying to excuse their sin and say God will nto send them to hell. he is a loving God.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Your not under law only because you were saved.

Again, look at the law. Where does it say in the law anything that you are claiming?

the law was the shadow. so your salvation must agree with the shadow.

This is scripture eg, not what " I'm claiming ".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is scripture eg, not what " I'm claiming ".

so is the law scripture. so is the law was a shadow scripture.

the penalty of sin is death, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. that is scripture also.

So is the fact God removed the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

you want to know how to be saved, and how to have forgiveness of sin, look to the law and the sacrificial system you will see what it was Christ did when he became the lamb of God.

 

[Hizikyah]

I agree with you here.

Then why do so many people disagree with me when I say just this same thing? Im told Jesus died so now it's ok. (you know this is generalized) But to say again, if we are supposed to be obedient after we accept His Sacrifice, why do 99% of Churches preach your free from the Law! Instead of;

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

For those WORDS ARE THE SAVIORS. So how is it possible to argue against the Commandments, when that is what the Messiah says.... I just don't get it....

Paul sums up my feeling perfectly here:

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

really? I hear this alot. But I have never heard anyone say this.

I think it is just a thing the legalistic churches teach their people so they can use this as an excuse to rejected grace.

I know there are some licentious gospels out there. But I have honestly never heard it from anyone who claims to follow God. Only sinners trying to excuse their sin and say God will nto send them to hell. he is a loving God.

WHen you said, "I think it is just a thing the legalistic churches teach their people so they can use this as an excuse to rejected grace. "

Im not sure what your saying here, I posted the Saviors words, are you saying "legalistic churches" use the Saviors words to reject grace?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WHen you said, "I think it is just a thing the legalistic churches teach their people so they can use this as an excuse to rejected grace. "

Im not sure what your saying here, I posted the Saviors words, are you saying "legalistic churches" use the Saviors words to reject grace?

My response was to this.

Then why do so many people disagree with me when I say just this same thing? Im told Jesus died so now it's ok.

the usual response to me from a legalist is I believe in faith alone so I must believe it is ok to sin, or use it to excuse my sin. And it gets old. and is actually quite sarcastic.

as for saying some churches say this, I was in a legalistic church, and this is what they taught me to say to those who believe in faith alone. so I say it from experience.

 

[Hizikyah]

My response was to this.

Then why do so many people disagree with me when I say just this same thing? Im told Jesus died so now it's ok.

the usual response to me from a legalist is I believe in faith alone so I must believe it is ok to sin, or use it to excuse my sin. And it gets old. and is actually quite sarcastic.

as for saying some churches say this, I was in a legalistic church, and this is what they taught me to say to those who believe in faith alone. so I say it from experience.

I think you are still missing what im trying to say.

If the Savior; Yahshua (Jesus) said these things:


Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

So how is it possible for any to be called legalistic if they repeat these, when that is what the Messiah says.... I just don't get it....

 

[newbirth]

No. You put your faith in your works. And how good you think you are. the law is still working in your life, because you have not obeyed or fulfilled it yet. You just ignore its condemnation.

why would you say that ..because the gospel teaches us to do good to all men .......if I obey the gospel you say I put faith in my works...and the law is working in my life....how am I condemned..if I am in Christ obeying what he says to do..?
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

I obey God, but am not good enough to earn salvation. so I am condemned by the law.

why do you insist one must earn salvation? if you obey God ...how can the law condemn you?
Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Those who HAVE eternal life do obey him..They do not have eternal life BECAUSE they obey him.

you have the sequence wrong.

you are saying one gets eternal life then obeys...scripture says...that is the reason God put flaming swords around the tree of life so that you don't get eternal life before you learn obedience...
Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The law condemns you. the blood of christ cleanses you, he either paid your price in full. or you have no hope.

you simply choose to misunderstand scripture. Christ did not pay a price for you to sin...The law cannot condemn me as long as I am in Christ....you have the same signature at the end of your posts but you do not believe it...

 

[newbirth]

I believe what the law said, sacrifice is given for sin.

But I get your point. It is like going and lieing to your boss. Coveting your neighbors car, or whatever, then going to repent and expecting God to forgive you just because you repented. Same idea

How can you not believe God forgives sin?...then you are still in your sins....what else can you do to be forgiven? except repent and ask forgiveness....???

 

[newbirth]

The ones under grace, are the ones dead and alive through The Messiah... If anyone hasn't died to themselves, there not under grace..if one dies, then resurrects the old man... We are endanger of hell fire..if one dies to themselves and lives through the Holy Ghost,we are under grace... and remain there, Simple

that should be if they remain there....
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you are still missing what im trying to say.

If the Savior; Yahshua (Jesus) said these things:


Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

So how is it possible for any to be called legalistic if they repeat these, when that is what the Messiah says.... I just don't get it....

Again.

it is legalism if your trying to be saved by doing those things. and not if your doing them because you are saved.

Gods children who have faith in him obey his commands.

so again, not sure what your saying.

someone who has faith would do those things, that is my point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]
why would you say that ..because the gospel teaches us to do good to all men .......if I obey the gospel you say I put faith in my works...and the law is working in my life....how am I condemned..if I am in Christ obeying what he says to do..?
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

why? because your basing your salvation on those works.

I do the same works. BECAUSE I AM SAVED.

why do you insist one must earn salvation? if you obey God ...how can the law condemn you?

Because the law is what condemns you in the first place. if your not saved, your still condemned.

The law showed that the only way sin can be forgiven is sacrifice, or blood.

You say this is not so. so your not only going against the law. Your going against the shadow of the law


God did not have man kill thousands, maybe millions of animals to teach us a spiritual principle. just so we can ignore it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can you not believe God forgives sin?...then you are still in your sins....what else can you do to be forgiven? except repent and ask forgiveness....???

How can repenting and asking forgiveness cause forgiveness of sin, if only the blood of Christ can cause forgiveness?

 

[Hizikyah]

I think you are still missing what im trying to say.

If the Savior; Yahshua (Jesus) said these things:


Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

So how is it possible for any to be called legalistic if they repeat these, when that is what the Messiah says.... I just don't get it....

Again.

it is legalism if your trying to be saved by doing those things. and not if your doing them because you are saved.

Gods children who have faith in him obey his commands.

so again, not sure what your saying.

someone who has faith would do those things, that is my point.

I posted Messiah's words and asked if repeating them was legalism.

I never said justified or saved by repeating and doing what He said.

and you said, "someone who has faith would do those things"

What are "those things" since there verses in question are:

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

Would not "those things" be ok to take joy in and promote to others?

And again what are, "those things" ,

He called them, "My commandments"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I posted Messiah's words and asked if repeating them was legalism.

I never said justified or saved by repeating and doing what He said.

and you said, "someone who has faith would do those things"

What are "those things" since there verses in question are:

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

Would not "those things" be ok to take joy in and promote to others?

And again what are, "those things" ,

He called them, "My commandments"

If I thought you were posting them just to show how a child of God should act. and not what we should do to keep salvation. I would agree.

But when someone post them to prove that you MUST do them to be saved. then it is legalism.

 

[Mitspa]

Heb 12:18 ¶ For ye are not come unto the mount that might not be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Your not come to the mountain where Moses received the law

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven

God the Father said this is my beloved Son, hear HIM and moses and Elijah vanished away

 

[newbirth]

why? because your basing your salvation on those works.

I do the same works. BECAUSE I AM SAVED.

the question is if you disobey God and do not the works(obey) are you still saved? so in essence you are doing the works to continue being saved....which you accuse me of being under the law...the just shall live by faith and faith without works is dead...

Because the law is what condemns you in the first place. if your not saved, your still condemned.

The law showed that the only way sin can be forgiven is sacrifice, or blood.

You say this is not so. so your not only going against the law. Your going against the shadow of the law


God did not have man kill thousands, maybe millions of animals to teach us a spiritual principle. just so we can ignore it.

the law only tells you that you are condemned....it is your sin that condemns...it is just as Me telling you that you sinned you conclude I condemn you....

 

[Mitspa]

If I thought you were posting them just to show how a child of God should act. and not what we should do to keep salvation. I would agree.

But when someone post them to prove that you MUST do them to be saved. then it is legalism.

Right! ..All works come from the Spirit because we are justified...we act like children of God because we are children of God

By God grace alone and apart from the works of the law

 

[Hizikyah]

I posted Messiah's words and asked if repeating them was legalism.

I never said justified or saved by repeating and doing what He said.

and you said, "someone who has faith would do those things"

What are "those things" since there verses in question are:

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

Would not "those things" be ok to take joy in and promote to others?

And again what are, "those things" ,

He called them, "My commandments"

If I thought you were posting them just to show how a child of God should act. and not what we should do to keep salvation. I would agree.

But when someone post them to prove that you MUST do them to be saved. then it is legalism.

SO you said, I posted that because, "what we should do to keep salvation"

No in my post you quoted I said, "I never said justified or saved by repeating and doing what He said."

If you look to post #1454 you will see this in the second line. So I would appreciate if you would not falsely put thing like that on me.

The sad part is I will come out looking like the bad guy for sticking up for myself.

 

[passinthru]

Hizikyah....please explain Galatian chapter 4.