THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Faith AND works...


Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

Heb 3:16-19, "For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

There is no faith without obedience.

There is no obedience without faith.

Any who claim one without the other, is either young in their walk or a imposter according to Scripture.

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Romans 1:5, "By Whom we have received mercy and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His Name."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
convicting is not the same as accusing.

An accuser accuses with evil intentions, A convicted brings to knowledge.
Well that's not what is being taught...but what it says is the Holy spirit is convicting us (believers) of righteousness ...and the WORLD of sin because they do not believe... The Holy Spirit is showing us Gods Righteousness and lifting us up...not tearing us down as sinners... But many are being taught that the Holy Spirit is following them around finding there sin....that a lie from the accuser himself...can you imagine that some are so biblically ignorant that they make the Holy Spirit the accuser.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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what does it mean?

do not worry about what you get here on earth, For whatever you get you can not take with you.

think on things of the spirit. I am not worried about what I get in heaven, My focus is on who I can serve here on earth.


but if I struggled with having things on earth, a proper response would be to change my focus to what you will recieve in heaven,
It says to store for yourself treasure in heaven, right or wrong ? not on earth, your thinking flesh, what I will get here on earth, it says where your treasure is your heart will be also..
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Faith AND works...


Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

Heb 3:16-19, "For some, when they had heard, rebelled. But not all rebelled who came out of Egypt through Mosheh. But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

There is no faith without obedience.

There is no obedience without faith.

Any who claim one without the other, is either young in their walk or a imposter according to Scripture.

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Romans 1:5, "By Whom we have received mercy and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His Name."
Im not a KJV only guy but you guys need to get some better translations....

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it

I would say this I know that unbelief is disobedience ...but you guys don't seem to understand that the law is not of faith....I think you guys think obedience is being under the law...in fact I know that's what you believe.
 
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Sep 30, 2014
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Im not a KJV only guy but you guys need to get some better translations....

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it
So can you live in disobedience " with the world " and still say your a believer of Christ
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
lets see.

One must repent and confess..( these are works).

if you do not do it enough, you are not saved (your words not mine)

And I said,

"Stop saying you can lose salvation if you do not do enough works,"

yet that is the very thing you continue to say.

Are you so blind you can not even see what your saying?
To start of with I never said what you keep posting that I enlarged, so please stop bearing false witness on me !!!
You are not saved if you live in unrepented sins, which means your actions have to show a true repentance.
You can not say you have repented of a sin, and then continue to do it over, and over again. The Holy Spirit is there to work in your life to lead you away from doing those things.
If you continue in willful sin, you are still living contrary and enmity to God because those sins are still your master.

We you are a believer, and the Holy Spirit is in you you are to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.
Sins are still walking in the flesh and can be imputed on a believer if they do not confess and repent of them. The Holy Spirit will let you know you did wrong and lead you to repentance, and if somebody says the Holy Spirit does not convict you when you sin. I would question if they really have the Holy Spirit in them, for it will not just sit back and let you do things contrary to God. This is why the scripture says do not grieve the Holy Spirit, you grieve the Holy Spirit when you commit a sin.

Once again Paul warned Timothy that if he takes part in others sin, he will make himself impure again.
This can not be possible if sins can not be imputed or counted against a believer, second he showed that the Galatians fell from grace for turning away from God to trying to be justified by the law ( sinful act ) again, and then we have James who is talking to believers here when he warns them;

[h=1]James 1:14-15[/h]14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

He is telling believers here that you can still be headed to spiritual death if the give into their sins.
And Paul tells Timothy that if he remembers to warn believers they can fall away from salvation then he is being a good minister for Christ.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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It says to store for yourself treasure in heaven, right or wrong ? not on earth, your thinking flesh, what I will get here on earth, it says where your treasure is your heart will be also..
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

King James Bible
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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So can you live in disobedience " with the world " and still say your a believer of Christ
Are you able to disobey your earthly father and still be his son? Is your familial relationship based on obedience or your birthright?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
That's only the judgment of sins part for sinners, the Spirit does convict, if your up to no good, the Spirit will help correct it..
I do retract that statement because it looks like I'm saying the Spirit comes to judge believers.. I apologize
Its another thread...but no where in the bible does it teach the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of sin.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
what does verse say right before that? Unbelief...they did not have faith...not obedience to works

Heb 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:6 (DBY) Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word,
Heb 4:6 (MKJV) Since then it remains that some must enter into it, and since they to whom it was first preached did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (MNT) Since, then, it remains that some should enter into it, and since those who formerly had the Good News preached to them did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (Oracl) Since, then, it remains for some to enter into it, and that they who first received the good tidings, did not enter in on account of unbelief:
Heb 4:6 (TCNT) Since, then, there is still a promise that some shall enter upon this Rest, and since those who were first told the Good News did not enter upon it, because of their disbelief,
Heb 4:6 (YLT) since then, it remaineth for certain to enter into it, and those who did first hear good news entered not in because of unbelief--

Read post #974 where like I said that chapter 3 of Hebrews shows that disobedience is unbelief !!!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Are you able to disobey your earthly father and still be his son? Is your familial relationship based on obedience or your birthright?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I personally wouldn't want to stress that relationship.

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Mattithyah 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

King James Bible
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
This needs to be reposted like ten times... lol
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Its another thread...but no where in the bible does it teach the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of sin.

That IS EXACTLY what the Spirit of Yahweh does, it makes sin repulsive and righteousness joy. I understand why you have the doctrine you do now. Your out of control.

Acts 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israyl know assuredly, that Yahweh has made that same Yahshua, Whom you have sacrificed, both King and Messiah! Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Kepha and the rest ofthe apostles; Men! Brothers, what must we do?

John 16:8, "
And when (Yahweh's Holy Spirit) comes, it will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: About sin, because men do not believe in Me;
"

 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
It is not a horrible translation, you want to make it a horrible translation because you want to not accept that the bible says all over it that disobedience is a sin of unbelief.
Hebrews mentions both unbelief and disobedience. Note that the major issue is entering God's Rest, which means not working!

:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

[I know of no dispute on the translation here.
Behind the disobedience was a failure to trust the Lord -- they cited giants in the land.]


4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

I
n the phrase, "because of disobedience," the term goes back to the verb peithō which means "I persuade," as opposed to the other standard term for obey (which means to hear, thus hear & do as you hear).

Consider that a failure to enter in is a disobedience. But to say that they failed to enter because of disobedience, makes no sense. You don't disobey because of disobedience. You disobey when you fail to trust the Lord. Thus I would translate that "
failed to enter in because of not being persuaded."
The text already said they didn't enter because of unbelief. I think the KJV has it better here than other translations.

The word often translated "disobedience" here is a combination of the prefix a- (negative) and the stem/root for persuade, peith-. To be disobedient is to be "not-persuaded" literally, here. Which is another way of saying that one is not convinced by the Lord, one is unbelieving.


BDAG:



πείθω
1. act., except for 2 perf. and plpf.: to cause to come to a particular point of view or course of action.
a. convince w. acc. of pers.
b. persuade, appeal to, also in an unfavorable sense cajole, mislead
c. win over, strive to please
d. conciliate, pacify, set at ease/rest


2. The 2 pf. (w. plpf.) has pres. mng. to be so convinced that one puts confidence in someth.
a. depend on, trust in w. dat. of pers. or thing (here πέπ. w. dat. almost = believe in, a sense which πέπ. also approximates in the LXX; cp. Jos., Ant. 7, 122).
b. be convinced, be sure, certain


3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the result of persuasion.
a. be persuaded, believe abs.


b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing


c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w. dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someone Ac 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11

4.
perf. pass. πέπεισμαι to attain certainty in ref. to something, be convinced, certain



“FAITH, PERSUADE, BELIEF, UNBELIEF,” NIDNTT, 1:589. (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology):


1 The stem peith- (pith-, poith-) has the basic meaning of trust (cf. Lat. fido, fides). The same stem is also the basis of the formations with pist- ( πιστεύω). Trust can refer to a statement, so that it has the meaning to put faith in, to let oneself be convinced, or to a demand, so that it gets the meaning of obey, be persuaded. The original intrans. act. peithō (trust) became trans., to convince, persuade (already in the time of Homer), first through the pass. (be convinced, persuaded). The meaning to trust was taken over with both the above-mentioned branches from the mid. pass. peithomai. Only the 2nd perf. pepoitha retains in the act. the original intrans. meaning (strictly, to have taken hold of trust with the effect continuing into the present). It has the present meaning of trusting firmly, relying upon. The mid. pass. of the 1st perf. pepeismai (strictly, to have been convinced, or to have convinced oneself) likewise means to be convinced. The noun pepoithēsis (trust, confidence), derived from pepoitha is late Gk.

 
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M

Mitspa

Guest
It is not a horrible translation, you want to make it a horrible translation because you want to not accept that the bible says all over it that disobedience is a sin of unbelief.

Hebrews mentions both unbelief and disobedience. Note that the major issue is entering God's Rest, which means not working!

:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

[I know of no dispute on the translation here.
Behind the disobedience was a failure to trust the Lord -- they cited giants in the land.]


4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

In the phrase, "because of disobedience," the term goes back to the verb peithō which means "I persuade," as opposed to the other standard term for obey (which means to hear, thus hear & do as you hear).

Consider that a failure to enter in is a disobedience. But to say that they failed to enter because of disobedience, makes no sense. You don't disobey because of disobedience. You disobey when you fail to trust the Lord. Thus I would translate that "failed to enter in because of not being persuaded."
The text already said they didn't enter because of unbelief. I think the KJV has it better here than other translations.

The word often translated "disobedience" here is a combination of the prefix a- (negative) and the stem/root for persuade, peith-. To be disobedient is to be "not-persuaded" literally, here. Which is another way of saying that one is not convinced by the Lord, one is unbelieving.


BDAG:



πείθω
1. act., except for 2 perf. and plpf.: to cause to come to a particular point of view or course of action.
a. convince w. acc. of pers.
b. persuade, appeal to, also in an unfavorable sense cajole, mislead
c. win over, strive to please
d. conciliate, pacify, set at ease/rest


2. The 2 pf. (w. plpf.) has pres. mng. to be so convinced that one puts confidence in someth.
a. depend on, trust in w. dat. of pers. or thing (here πέπ. w. dat. almost = believe in, a sense which πέπ. also approximates in the LXX; cp. Jos., Ant. 7, 122).
b. be convinced, be sure, certain


3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the result of persuasion.
a. be persuaded, believe abs.


b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing


c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w. dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someone Ac 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11

4.
perf. pass. πέπεισμαι to attain certainty in ref. to something, be convinced, certain



“FAITH, PERSUADE, BELIEF, UNBELIEF,” NIDNTT, 1:589. (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology):


1 The stem peith- (pith-, poith-) has the basic meaning of trust (cf. Lat. fido, fides). The same stem is also the basis of the formations with pist- ( πιστεύω). Trust can refer to a statement, so that it has the meaning to put faith in, to let oneself be convinced, or to a demand, so that it gets the meaning of obey, be persuaded. The original intrans. act. peithō (trust) became trans., to convince, persuade (already in the time of Homer), first through the pass. (be convinced, persuaded). The meaning to trust was taken over with both the above-mentioned branches from the mid. pass. peithomai. Only the 2nd perf. pepoitha retains in the act. the original intrans. meaning (strictly, to have taken hold of trust with the effect continuing into the present). It has the present meaning of trusting firmly, relying upon. The mid. pass. of the 1st perf. pepeismai (strictly, to have been convinced, or to have convinced oneself) likewise means to be convinced. The noun pepoithēsis (trust, confidence), derived from pepoitha is late Gk.

Thank you I just didn't have the strength to find that and put it together...
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Still don't change the fact that going back to the law is willful sin...

Going back to trying to be justified by the mosaic law is a willful sin that caused the Galatians to fall from grace as Paul said, and if they stay in that fallen state they will not have eternal life. Which is why Paul was warning them.
This however is not the only willful sin that can cause somebody to not have salvation, any willful sin that a person continues to do without repenting and asking forgiveness of leads to eternal punishment.

As for the Holy Spirit convicting a believer, what do you think the term Godly sorrow means ?

Godly sorrow means you feel the conviction of the wrong that you did and will lead you to repent of it. ( 1 Corinthians 7:10 )
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Still don't change the fact that going back to the law is willful sin...
Hebrews mentions both unbelief and disobedience. Note that the major issue is entering God's Rest, which means not working!

:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

[I know of no dispute on the translation here.
Behind the disobedience was a failure to trust the Lord -- they cited giants in the land.]


4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

I
n the phrase, "because of disobedience," the term goes back to the verb peithō which means "I persuade," as opposed to the other standard term for obey (which means to hear, thus hear & do as you hear).

Consider that a failure to enter in is a disobedience. But to say that they failed to enter because of disobedience, makes no sense. You don't disobey because of disobedience. You disobey when you fail to trust the Lord. Thus I would translate that "
failed to enter in because of not being persuaded."
The text already said they didn't enter because of unbelief. I think the KJV has it better here than other translations.

The word often translated "disobedience" here is a combination of the prefix a- (negative) and the stem/root for persuade, peith-. To be disobedient is to be "not-persuaded" literally, here. Which is another way of saying that one is not convinced by the Lord, one is unbelieving.


BDAG:



πείθω
1. act., except for 2 perf. and plpf.: to cause to come to a particular point of view or course of action.
a. convince w. acc. of pers.
b. persuade, appeal to, also in an unfavorable sense cajole, mislead
c. win over, strive to please
d. conciliate, pacify, set at ease/rest


2. The 2 pf. (w. plpf.) has pres. mng. to be so convinced that one puts confidence in someth.
a. depend on, trust in w. dat. of pers. or thing (here πέπ. w. dat. almost = believe in, a sense which πέπ. also approximates in the LXX; cp. Jos., Ant. 7, 122).
b. be convinced, be sure, certain


3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the result of persuasion.
a. be persuaded, believe abs.


b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing


c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w. dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someone Ac 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11

4.
perf. pass. πέπεισμαι to attain certainty in ref. to something, be convinced, certain



“FAITH, PERSUADE, BELIEF, UNBELIEF,” NIDNTT, 1:589. (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology):


1 The stem peith- (pith-, poith-) has the basic meaning of trust (cf. Lat. fido, fides). The same stem is also the basis of the formations with pist- ( πιστεύω). Trust can refer to a statement, so that it has the meaning to put faith in, to let oneself be convinced, or to a demand, so that it gets the meaning of obey, be persuaded. The original intrans. act. peithō (trust) became trans., to convince, persuade (already in the time of Homer), first through the pass. (be convinced, persuaded). The meaning to trust was taken over with both the above-mentioned branches from the mid. pass. peithomai. Only the 2nd perf. pepoitha retains in the act. the original intrans. meaning (strictly, to have taken hold of trust with the effect continuing into the present). It has the present meaning of trusting firmly, relying upon. The mid. pass. of the 1st perf. pepeismai (strictly, to have been convinced, or to have convinced oneself) likewise means to be convinced. The noun pepoithēsis (trust, confidence), derived from pepoitha is late Gk.




Entering into the Lords rest means that you are given eternal life / salvation !!!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Hebrews mentions both unbelief and disobedience. Note that the major issue is entering God's Rest, which means not working!

:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

[I know of no dispute on the translation here.
Behind the disobedience was a failure to trust the Lord -- they cited giants in the land.]


4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

I
n the phrase, "because of disobedience," the term goes back to the verb peithō which means "I persuade," as opposed to the other standard term for obey (which means to hear, thus hear & do as you hear).

Consider that a failure to enter in is a disobedience. But to say that they failed to enter because of disobedience, makes no sense. You don't disobey because of disobedience. You disobey when you fail to trust the Lord. Thus I would translate that "
failed to enter in because of not being persuaded."
The text already said they didn't enter because of unbelief. I think the KJV has it better here than other translations.

The word often translated "disobedience" here is a combination of the prefix a- (negative) and the stem/root for persuade, peith-. To be disobedient is to be "not-persuaded" literally, here. Which is another way of saying that one is not convinced by the Lord, one is unbelieving.


BDAG:



πείθω
1. act., except for 2 perf. and plpf.: to cause to come to a particular point of view or course of action.
a. convince w. acc. of pers.
b. persuade, appeal to, also in an unfavorable sense cajole, mislead
c. win over, strive to please
d. conciliate, pacify, set at ease/rest


2. The 2 pf. (w. plpf.) has pres. mng. to be so convinced that one puts confidence in someth.
a. depend on, trust in w. dat. of pers. or thing (here πέπ. w. dat. almost = believe in, a sense which πέπ. also approximates in the LXX; cp. Jos., Ant. 7, 122).
b. be convinced, be sure, certain


3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the result of persuasion.
a. be persuaded, believe abs.


b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing


c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w. dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someone Ac 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11

4.
perf. pass. πέπεισμαι to attain certainty in ref. to something, be convinced, certain



“FAITH, PERSUADE, BELIEF, UNBELIEF,” NIDNTT, 1:589. (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology):


1 The stem peith- (pith-, poith-) has the basic meaning of trust (cf. Lat. fido, fides). The same stem is also the basis of the formations with pist- ( πιστεύω). Trust can refer to a statement, so that it has the meaning to put faith in, to let oneself be convinced, or to a demand, so that it gets the meaning of obey, be persuaded. The original intrans. act. peithō (trust) became trans., to convince, persuade (already in the time of Homer), first through the pass. (be convinced, persuaded). The meaning to trust was taken over with both the above-mentioned branches from the mid. pass. peithomai. Only the 2nd perf. pepoitha retains in the act. the original intrans. meaning (strictly, to have taken hold of trust with the effect continuing into the present). It has the present meaning of trusting firmly, relying upon. The mid. pass. of the 1st perf. pepeismai (strictly, to have been convinced, or to have convinced oneself) likewise means to be convinced. The noun pepoithēsis (trust, confidence), derived from pepoitha is late Gk.

Not implying ANY of this on you, but want to explore;

What kind of rest?

Does that mean no trying? No actually speaking up for what is right? Or, a rest from the ways of the world?

To rest from our works, to do His works?

Not to be a monk who stares at a wall all day, or a supposed follower of Messiah that has been molded by the world to do and say nothing in the face of evil, but rather to walk as He did?

Selfless or selfish?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest

That IS EXACTLY what the Spirit of Yahweh does, it makes sin repulsive and righteousness joy. I understand why you have the doctrine you do now. Your out of control.

Acts 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israyl know assuredly, that Yahweh has made that same Yahshua, Whom you have sacrificed, both King and Messiah!Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Kepha and the rest ofthe apostles; Men! Brothers, what must we do?

John 16:8, "
And when (Yahweh's Holy Spirit) comes, it will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: About sin, because men do not believe in Me;
"

lol find me a scripture that says the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin and I will leave this forum altogether...

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.