THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Hebrews 4:5-6

5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[a]
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

they were disobedient because they had no faith in God.

do you even WANT TO KNOW what faith is? or continue in your ignorance of the true meaning of the word?


and you still ignored the fact you are a sinner, self professed sinner. And you refuse to admit, according to the law. your still judged.

I showed you how good was good enough, and you post somethign which did not even refute it?

I feel sorry for you. Honestly. You so close, yet so far..
Did you read the verse?

"did not enter because of disobedience"

Tha doesnt mean works justify.

But it still means, they did not enter because of disobedience

It is stated plainly.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
This still doesn't say that obedience is a work, true works come in by showing Christ reigning in our life through the Holy Spirit..

not true

A person who does not have faith, or even believe in Christ can give to the poor, Honor their parents, Never bare false witness against anyone. Yet they do not have Christ reigning in their lives.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Some of you guys need to get hold of this "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" if your under the law of moses? your not in the faith ...you have rejected and fallin from grace...you may not even be saved? You guys need to repent from dead works.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just because it was posted...the Holy Spirit IS NOT convicting the believer of sin...another false doctrine from the spirit of error... the name satan means (accuser) he accuses believers ...not the Holy Spirit
convicting is not the same as accusing.

An accuser accuses with evil intentions, A convicted brings to knowledge.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Now stop & think about it: How will you crucify yourself? I mean you could nail your feet; but how will you get your hand nailed? You need one hand to be nailed, another to hold the nail, & a third hand to swing the hammer.

"I have been crucified with Christ, and it no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." Gal 2:20.

Christ was the One who was crucified. Somehow I got in on the event.

Yet often I don't seem all that crucified!

The question to ponder is,
how is it that at times a Christian indeed seems crucified with Christ; Him living in the Christian.
Yet at other times it seems quite unbelievable that Christ is living in the Christian.

Does the Christian get plugged into the cross at times & unplugged at other times?

The text goes on to say that the life lived in the flesh (concrete human existence in a body) is lived in faith in the Son of God.
It's giving up the lust of the world, like divorcing your wife and leaving your children for the new hot 21 year old, or going to parties to boast in your accomplishments and the new yacht master Rolex.. You no longer care about yourself, when it comes to the world, you care about others.. not literally crucifying yourself to a cross Atwood
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Yes the law is not of faith...those who return to the law of Moses are in willful sin...that's what the book of Hebrews says
This prophecy is about the END END.

The second death.

Since this has not happened it is still future.

Should we cast aside a prophecy that is still on the horizon?

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Priestly duties have been transferred to the order of Melchizedek, Sacrifice is fulfilled in Messiah (Passover Lamb).

What Law(s) is it you do not want to follow?

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ok eg, do you have to obey God or not... By no works if any man boast right ?
I am born of the spirit.

I do what God says because I know he will not lead me into error. and I will be blessed if I do them.

I do not boast of my works, because I do them not expecting anything in return (I do it out of love)

when my flesh does work its way to the top, and I am tempted to want something for doing good. and follow that temptation, then even though I did an obedient work. I am in sin, because it was fleshly (carnal) not out of love.

 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Did you read the verse?

"did not enter because of disobedience"

Tha doesnt mean works justify.

But it still means, they did not enter because of disobedience

It is stated plainly.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ...The law is not of faith.. that's the warning of Hebrews.... Jews going back to the law ...
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Must be that horrible translation you have?


Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


I would throw that translation in the trash !

It is not a horrible translation, you want to make it a horrible translation because you want to not accept that the bible says all over it that disobedience is a sin of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6

New International Version
Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,

New Living Translation
So God's rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God.

English Standard Version
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

King James Bible
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,

International Standard Version
Therefore, since it is still true that some will enter it, and since those who once heard the good news failed to enter it because of their disobedience,

NET Bible
Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.


All of these except for the KJV say because of disobedience because that is the context that chapter 3 and 4 is talking about, is disobedience. For it places disobedience as a sin of unbelief.

 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48

they were disobedient because they had no faith in God.

do you even WANT TO KNOW what faith is? or continue in your ignorance of the true meaning of the word?


and you still ignored the fact you are a sinner, self professed sinner. And you refuse to admit, according to the law. your still judged.

I showed you how good was good enough, and you post somethign which did not even refute it?

I feel sorry for you. Honestly. You so close, yet so far..
What faith is?

When I was 9 years old, I wanted to "join the church." In the mentality which I was raised in didn't get saved, you "joined the church." I don't recall any preacher ever talking about getting saved, but about joining the church. I walked forward at the invitation. The preacher asked me, "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God." I said, "Yes." And I did. Then I was duly dunked in a river.

I think that for the Campbellite mentality (in which I was raised), faith is believing that Jesus is the Son of God (the fact). It is obvious that merely believing that fact does not result in eternal life. Thus they go on & add a bunch of works-hoops and decry "faith only."

Somehow it doesn't seem to dawn on them that the Lord Jesus is in fact a Savior, not just a judge. He asks that we trust Him with our destiny.

It may seem strange that the Lord cares so much that we trust Him. Our eternal destiny depends upon that one thing, as the only escape from our sinful Adamic nature. But to trust Christ as Savior means that we realize that we need saving; we are sinners. And who wants to admit how depraved he really is.

Is it not pathetic how a sinner will deny salvation and seek validation of his works. Imagine the folly of thinking:

Why I don't need saving; I am basically a good boy. I visit the sick and imprisoned, I clothe the naked, I am righteous 24/7!
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
This prophecy is about the END END.

The second death.

Since this has not happened it is still future.

Should we cast aside a prophecy that is still on the horizon?

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Priestly duties have been transferred to the order of Melchizedek, Sacrifice is fulfilled in Messiah (Passover Lamb).

What Law(s) is it you do not want to follow?

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Still don't change the fact that going back to the law is willful sin...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Did you read the verse?

"did not enter because of disobedience"

Tha doesnt mean works justify.

But it still means, they did not enter because of disobedience

It is stated plainly.
and why were they disobedient?

Do you think if they had faith in God, they would have turned against everything God sad or did?

the author is trying to show. they did not have a few obedient acts, and alot of disobedience. he is trying to show they had no acts of obedience at all. the complained, they wined, they rejected moses authority, they did NOTHING obedient, because their thoughts and intentions of their hearts were evil.


King david was considered righteous, Not because he was righteous (he was a murder and aduterer) but because he had faith in God. because of this, God did not impute his sin to his account, but instead (when Christ came )imputed Davids sin to Christ.

As scripture said, he passed over the sin which was previously committed, in his forbearance.

Those who are called disobedient are people who NEVER DID A THING FOR GOD.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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I am born of the spirit.

I do what God says because I know he will not lead me into error. and I will be blessed if I do them.

I do not boast of my works, because I do them not expecting anything in return (I do it out of love)

when my flesh does work its way to the top, and I am tempted to want something for doing good. and follow that temptation, then even though I did an obedient work. I am in sin, because it was fleshly (carnal) not out of love.

Treasures in Heaven
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

What does this mean then eg ?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ...The law is not of faith.. that's the warning of Hebrews.... Jews going back to the law ...
[h=1]Hebrews 3:18-19[/h]18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.


Disobedience is sin of unbelief.......going back to the law to be justified is an act of sin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Still don't change the fact that going back to the law is willful sin...
would not matter,

someone who goes back to law was never saved to begin with. they went back to what they were.

They never stopped sinning, they played a game for a bit. and tried christianity out, and realised they did not like it.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Yes the law is not of faith...those who return to the law of Moses are in willful sin...that's what the book of Hebrews says
This prophecy is about the END END.

The second death.

Since this has not happened it is still future.

Should we cast aside a prophecy that is still on the horizon?

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Priestly duties have been transferred to the order of Melchizedek, Sacrifice is fulfilled in Messiah (Passover Lamb).

What Law(s) is it you do not want to follow?

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Still don't change the fact that going back to the law is willful sin...
Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Treasures in Heaven
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

What does this mean then eg ?
what does it mean?

do not worry about what you get here on earth, For whatever you get you can not take with you.

think on things of the spirit. I am not worried about what I get in heaven, My focus is on who I can serve here on earth.


but if I struggled with having things on earth, a proper response would be to change my focus to what you will recieve in heaven,
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
It is not a horrible translation, you want to make it a horrible translation because you want to not accept that the bible says all over it that disobedience is a sin of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6

New International Version
Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,

New Living Translation
So God's rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God.

English Standard Version
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

King James Bible
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,

International Standard Version
Therefore, since it is still true that some will enter it, and since those who once heard the good news failed to enter it because of their disobedience,

NET Bible
Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.


All of these except for the KJV say because of disobedience because that is the context that chapter 3 and 4 is talking about, is disobedience. For it places disobedience as a sin of unbelief.

what does verse say right before that? Unbelief...they did not have faith...not obedience to works

Heb 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:6 (DBY) Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word,
Heb 4:6 (MKJV) Since then it remains that some must enter into it, and since they to whom it was first preached did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (MNT) Since, then, it remains that some should enter into it, and since those who formerly had the Good News preached to them did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (Oracl) Since, then, it remains for some to enter into it, and that they who first received the good tidings, did not enter in on account of unbelief:
Heb 4:6 (TCNT) Since, then, there is still a promise that some shall enter upon this Rest, and since those who were first told the Good News did not enter upon it, because of their disbelief,
Heb 4:6 (YLT) since then, it remaineth for certain to enter into it, and those who did first hear good news entered not in because of unbelief--
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
what does verse say right before that? Unbelief...they did not have faith...not obedience to works

Heb 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:6 (DBY) Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word,
Heb 4:6 (MKJV) Since then it remains that some must enter into it, and since they to whom it was first preached did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (MNT) Since, then, it remains that some should enter into it, and since those who formerly had the Good News preached to them did not enter in because of unbelief,
Heb 4:6 (Oracl) Since, then, it remains for some to enter into it, and that they who first received the good tidings, did not enter in on account of unbelief:
Heb 4:6 (TCNT) Since, then, there is still a promise that some shall enter upon this Rest, and since those who were first told the Good News did not enter upon it, because of their disbelief,
Heb 4:6 (YLT) since then, it remaineth for certain to enter into it, and those who did first hear good news entered not in because of unbelief--

the selective reading of some people just amazes me.
 
Sep 30, 2014
2,329
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not true

A person who does not have faith, or even believe in Christ can give to the poor, Honor their parents, Never bare false witness against anyone. Yet they do not have Christ reigning in their lives.
Confessing and repenting " turning away " from sin, then gifted with salvation and Holy Spirit.. the works come through the Holy Spirit.. You must be ready to obey and repent turn away from sin... Get Holy Ghost and do good works ..Simple