THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Brainfreeze]

so you believe you can earn salvation also. Thats good to know.

Good luck with that.

Maybe you should read the word. God does not kick his children out of his family when they do things, They are still his children.

Someone who has tasted the wonderous love of the father, would never stay away long, Because they know what they are missing (I know i was a prodigal son)

but still. good luck earning your way to heaven.

Obedience is not work... IM NOT EARNING ANYTHING, being saved was a gift, now keeping salvation I must stop my wicked ways, cease from serving sin.. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't serve sin, my life isn't based off self, " a change " happened, true faith, love, and trust in Yahshua, will bring a true genuine change, " a transformation " will start ..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Bible Verses About Disobedience

Bible verses related to Disobedience from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

- Sort By Book Order



John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 1:14-15 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (Read More...)

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Genesis 3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (Read More...)

John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Proverbs 1:23-33 - Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. (Read More...)

2 Peter 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Psalms 127:3 - Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Timothy 3:1-16 - This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. (Read More...)

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 - For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: (Read More...)

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (Read More...)

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 16:1-31 - And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. (Read More...)

Matthew 18:1-35 - At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? (Read More...)

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Isaiah 1:1-31 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah. (Read More...)

Revelation 1:18 - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1 Corinthians 15:55 - O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Hosea 13:14 - I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

Bible verses about how good is good enough.

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

what is the penalty for breaking the law?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

The curse of the law is death

for the wages of sin (breaking the law, even one point) is death, but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obedience is not work... IM NOT EARNING ANYTHING, being saved was a gift, now keeping salvation I must stop my wicked ways, cease from serving sin.. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't serve sin, my life isn't based off self, " a change " happened, true faith, love, and trust in Yahshua, will bring a true genuine change, " a transformation " will start ..

obedience is A WORK. sorry if you disagree, but that is what scripture says,

Not by works of righteousness (obedient acts) which we have done, HE SAVED US by the washing and renewal of the spirit.

Salvation CAUSES GOOD WORKS.

You do not HAVE to become obedient, YOU WILL if you are born of God. The spirit of God, who is given to you as a gift, teach you, and even chasten yuo if you mess up.

who can withstand the chastening of the lord?

twist it however you want, If your being obedient to get saved, keep saved, or not lose salvation. your trying to earn your salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You will lose salvation.. If you fall back to the world, that's your master, not God.

Yes that is what Paul told the Galatians because they fell from God's grace to go back to trying to be justified through the law, instead of through their faith in the Lord.

Then in 1 Timothy, Paul also says that people will be drawn away from the faith, meaning not having salvation any more.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

And then Paul says in this same chapter that if you instruct others that people can be pulled away, and fall from the faith and not have salvation then this is what Paul said to Timothy that he would be;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[Brainfreeze]

obedience is A WORK. sorry if you disagree, but that is what scripture says,

Not by works of righteousness (obedient acts) which we have done, HE SAVED US by the washing and renewal of the spirit.

Salvation CAUSES GOOD WORKS.

You do not HAVE to become obedient, YOU WILL if you are born of God. The spirit of God, who is given to you as a gift, teach you, and even chasten yuo if you mess up.

who can withstand the chastening of the lord?

twist it however you want, If your being obedient to get saved, keep saved, or not lose salvation. your trying to earn your salvation.

Don't tell me obedience is a work, and that's what scripture says... Show me the scripture your referring to please..
and salvation doesn't cause good works... The Holy Spirit does..a righteous act is just that, doing something not ceasing from sin.

 

[Hoffco]

These two trues are in the Bible: God saves all His Elect and none will be lost. and 2. The saved sinner must and will continue in holiness of life if he wants to be saved, and because he is saved by the Grace of God. We should not deny either trues. Love Hoffco

 

[The_highwayman]

You are raping the scripture to promote your doctrine.....
bro you have to live like Christ did ...he is our example....like Paul said...follow me as I follow Christ...James said...faith without works is dead...I post scripture saying...the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit...
read and repeat scripture not your opinion....if it differs from scripture....

[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
in other words you fulfil the righteousness of the law when you walk after the spirit

2 Cor 5.21-
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

I think that is pretty clear and no I am not raping scripture, it is as plain as the nose on your face

You gain righteousness through your faith and it is given by God's grace. You will never fulfill the law, Jesus was the only human that could. There for your fulfill the law when accept the gift of righteousness given to by God's grace when you confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

Besides you are taking ROmans 8 completely out of context...Read Romans 7 & 8 as one chapter

 

[kennethcadwell]

Bible verses about how good is good enough.

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

what is the penalty for breaking the law?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

The curse of the law is death

for the wages of sin (breaking the law, even one point) is death, but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE.

[h=1]Hebrews 4:5-6[/h]5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[a]
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

 

[Brainfreeze]

2 Cor 5.21-
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

I think that is pretty clear and no I am not raping scripture, it is as plain as the nose on your face

You gain righteousness through your faith and it is given by God's grace. You will never fulfill the law, Jesus was the only human that could. There for your fulfill the law when accept the gift of righteousness given to by God's grace when you confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

Besides you are taking ROmans 8 completely out of context...Read Romans 7 & 8 as one chapter

So is it we who live after being saved " flesh " or is it He who lives in us " Spirit " ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

dude, you teach it every day.

You want me to stop saying your trying to earn salvation.

Stop saying you can lose salvation if you do not do enough works, are not obedient enough, or for watever reason.

Anyone who teaches salvation can be lost because we fail to do something, or do not do enough is teaching we must earn salvation.

You do not like it? the pharisees did not like it either. They killed Christ. Should I be worried? (actually it would not matter to me, to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.

I know, you can;t say this about yourself. because you could never know if you made it or not.

I never said the above enlarged statement you made, once again you are reading more into what I say and trying to tell others I said that. Making another false claim against me.

I said obedience is a prerequisite of the believer, as the bible shows over and over again outer expressions of showing that will be in a believers life, and if these things are not part of your life then you are not a saved believer.
Paul says this over and over again of things that are a part of a believers life, and things that can not be part of your life to be saved. Obedience is one of them.

Believers do backslide, but if they repent and confess those sins they are forgiven as 1 John says.
One who continues in total disobedience, or returns to a life of disobedience will not have salvation. Paul says clearly that a believer can fall from grace.

 

[The_highwayman]

So is it we who live after being saved " flesh " or is it He who lives in us " Spirit " ?

In Romans 3-5 Paul teaches us how we are made righteousness by the grace of God and not through works[the Mosaic law]

In Romans 6 Paul teaches us that God's Grace does not give us license to sin or continue in the sin nature.

In Romans 7 Paul is teaching us how utterly hopeless it is to attempt to live for Christ through the flesh.

In Romans 8 he is teaching us how easy it is to live for Christ by the Spirit.

Now read Romans 7.25 and continue to Romans 8.1 and you will see that Romans 7 and 8 are 1 complete thought or teaching.

 

[Brainfreeze]

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Yahshua. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Yahshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What does this scripture mean to you eg ? .. Does this say we were the children of sin and were saved by grace ? That we were DEAD IN SIN " disobediant " He still loved us .. Does it say He created us in Christ that we should do good works that we should walk in them ?

 

[Hizikyah]

Not true

Obedience is a work.

if it is done out of love, and not expecting anything in return, it is a work of true righteousness.

if it is done to recieve something, it is a work which is not counted as grace but as debt, as Paul makes clear in romans 4.

We disagree a lot but I agree with you in this post.

Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

 

[Brainfreeze]

We disagree a lot but I agree with you in this post.

Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

This still doesn't say that obedience is a work, true works come in by showing Christ reigning in our life through the Holy Spirit..

 

[Mitspa]

Obedience done to justify oneself is a act and work of the flesh...sin Obedience done from justification is and act of the Spirit and faith.... Repent from dead works! cleanse your hands ye sinners!

 

[Hizikyah]

This still doesn't say that obedience is a work,

OK I can go with that, it does not literally say that.

In the faith and words discussion the only works that are acceptable to Yah are those He has set forth. And that would be obedience. So by extension, I guess. LOL this is why I only post Scripture!

Ezekiyl 14:9, "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I Yahweh have prevailed upon that prophet , and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

 

[Mitspa]

No one can keep the commandments of God unless they are saved and justified ...having the Spirit of God....any work done in the flesh is rejected as a dead work to God.

 

[Hizikyah]

No one can keep the commandments of God unless they are saved and justified ...having the Spirit of God....any work done in the flesh is rejected as a dead work to God.

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."


Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, these are sons of Yahweh."

 

[Chopper]

There is only who who is our justification of the law, and that is Yahushua. He paid the price that we might be justified through Him. Does that mean we are supposed to ignore the law because we are justified through Him? No, but rather we learn to love the law of life as fulfilled through Him.

Rom_4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom_5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[newbirth]

2 Cor 5.21-
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

I think that is pretty clear and no I am not raping scripture, it is as plain as the nose on your face

You gain righteousness through your faith and it is given by God's grace. You will never fulfill the law, Jesus was the only human that could. There for your fulfill the law when accept the gift of righteousness given to by God's grace when you confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead.

Besides you are taking ROmans 8 completely out of context...Read Romans 7 & 8 as one chapter

scripture says ...we might fulfil the righteousness of the law... that is those who walk after the spirit.....that is why 2 Cor 5;21 says ....that we might be made the righteousness...Rom 8:4 the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us...you were made righteous when your sins were remitted...hence the reason scripture says ....sin not...your gospel does not contain repentance and remission of sins....repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS...that is the promise...

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

where did you obey God to receive his HS???