THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[kennethcadwell]

[/COLOR]

Psalm 133:3
King James Bible
As the Dew of Hermon, and as the Dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Yes that is a wonderful Psalm about unity of the brethren....

 

[passinthru]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

Does these two contradict each other? Absolutely not, for we do not take credit for the works done in our life, but they are a prerequisite of a believers life that we walk in. Love, obedience all follow a true believers walk.
We do slip up from time to time, but we have a just Lord and Savior that when we confess our sins He will forgive us of them.
(1 John 1:9)

You Got it right! No contradiction at all! In fact it says "he who says he has no sin has deceived himself" . We are 'perfected in him' and can never in this lifetime be perfected in any other way. We strive to do good and be within his will at all times but we fall short. He is faithfull to forgive us. So many seem to categorize sin and draw a line in the sand.....then they want to walk as close to that line as possible ( sinful nature within is all thing) and peek over the line to see who is there...LOL. No not funny at all but many times the gospel is put in second place by many who see the bad in man rather than the Good that God has offered for that lost soul just as it was for us. Sad situation ....sorry folks I AM WAY OFF TOPIC HERE.

 

[Hizikyah]

[/COLOR]

Psalm 133:3
King James Bible
As the Dew of Hermon, and as the Dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Psalm 133:3, "It is like the dew of Hermon, the dew which comes down upon the hills of Zion; for there Yahweh had commanded the blessingof life forevermore!"


Psalm 133:3 ►Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%"]Str[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Translit[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Hebrew[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 25%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Morph[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2919 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kə-ṭal-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]כְּטַל־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]As the dew[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2768 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ḥer-mō-wn,[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]חֶרְמ֗וֹן[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Hermon[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3381 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]še-yō-rêḏ[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]שֶׁיֹּרֵד֮[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][and as the dew] that descended[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5921 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]‘al-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]עַל־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]on[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2042 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]har-rê[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הַרְרֵ֪י[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the mountains[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6726 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ṣî-yō-wn[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]צִ֫יּ֥וֹן[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Zion[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kî[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]כִּ֤י[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]for[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]8033 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]šām[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]שָׁ֨ם ׀[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]there[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6680 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ṣiw-wāh[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]צִוָּ֣ה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]commanded[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3068 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Yah-weh[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]יְ֭הוָה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the LORD[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]853 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]’eṯ-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]אֶת־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"] - [/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Acc[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1293 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hab-bə-rā-ḵāh;[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הַבְּרָכָ֑ה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the blessing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2416 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ḥay-yîm,[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]חַ֝יִּ֗ים[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][even] life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5704 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]‘aḏ-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]עַד־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]forevermore[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5769 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hā-‘ō-w-lām.[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הָעוֹלָֽם׃[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"].. .. ..[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Psalm 119:142-144, "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, because Your Law is the truth! Trouble and anguish have overtaken us, but Your Laws are our delights. The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting, giving us understanding, so we may live,"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 19:17, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh."

 

[Hizikyah]

[/COLOR]

Psalm 133:3
King James Bible
As the Dew of Hermon, and as the Dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Psalm 133:3, "It is like the dew of Hermon, the dew which comes down upon the hills of Zion; for there Yahweh had commanded the blessing of life forevermore!"


Psalm 133:3 ►Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top"]Str[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Translit[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Hebrew[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 25%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Morph[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2919 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kə-ṭal-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]כְּטַל־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]As the dew[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2768 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ḥer-mō-wn,[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]חֶרְמ֗וֹן[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Hermon[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3381 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]še-yō-rêḏ[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]שֶׁיֹּרֵד֮[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][and as the dew] that descended[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5921 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]‘al-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]עַל־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]on[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2042 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]har-rê[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הַרְרֵ֪י[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the mountains[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6726 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ṣî-yō-wn[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]צִ֫יּ֥וֹן[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of Zion[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kî[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]כִּ֤י[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]for[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]8033 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]šām[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]שָׁ֨ם ׀[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]there[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6680 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ṣiw-wāh[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]צִוָּ֣ה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]commanded[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Verb[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3068 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Yah-weh[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]יְ֭הוָה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the LORD[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]853 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]’eṯ-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]אֶת־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"] -[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Acc[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1293 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hab-bə-rā-ḵāh;[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הַבְּרָכָ֑ה[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the blessing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2416 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ḥay-yîm,[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]חַ֝יִּ֗ים[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][even] life[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5704 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]‘aḏ-[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]עַד־[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]forevermore[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5769 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hā-‘ō-w-lām.[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הָעוֹלָֽם׃[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"].. .. ..[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Noun[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Psalm 119:142-144, "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, because Your Law is the truth! Trouble and anguish have overtaken us, but Your Laws are our delights. The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting, giving us understanding, so we may live,"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 19:17, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh."

 

[Hizikyah]

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

 

[passinthru]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

 

[kennethcadwell]

Here in these next set of scriptures which I have given different bible versions. Paul is talking to Timothy and tells him not to share in or take part in others sins, and to keep himself pure. I would ask that if sin can not be imputed on to a believer once they are in Christ. Why does Paul warn Timothy of becoming impure again do to sin?
This would have to mean that sin can be imputed and counted against the believer, and future sins are still a danger in our lives.


New International Version
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

New Living Translation
Never be in a hurry about appointing a church leader. Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

English Standard Version
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.

New American Standard Bible
Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

King James Bible
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

 

[passinthru]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
Mattithyah 19:17, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh."


God is Love. Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin. He offered himself for the sins of the world." NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" He paid the price and overcame the law of sin and death. Sin has been defeated if we accept what God did. Sin has no power over us unless we allow it through disobedience or deception. Yes, we can slip from time to time and we will. Grace is no a license to sin. Th elaw as a schoolmaster. A schoolmaster that showed man how unrighteous he was in himself. It was Love for us all that held Jesus on the cross.....an innocent man and God in one. We are free...works are an outward produce of and inward transformation made possible by the precious blood of Jeus sChrist for you and me and all if they accept it.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Sounds like double-talk to me, Kenneth.
First off, the matter of assurance is a different doctrine from "how to be saved." Assurance is partly based on works. If you are into certain gross habitual sins, you don't have grounds for assurance; since scripture says,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

You guys don't seem to be able to get Ephesians 2 straight:
God gives grace, man exerts faith leading to salvation (no works).
Salvation leads to works (which has a part in assurance).

I am at a loss as to how you go on & on virtually denying that salvation & eternal life are present possessions of Christians, as if salvation were the outcome of some eschatological judgment. Salvation is first of all a rebirth in which a man's nature is changed permanently -- old things pass away, and all becomes new. It includes eternal life at the moment of belief. Try bathing your laundry & self in the following:

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.


In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.


[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.


he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.

And 'this' my Brother is a mixture that should not be posted to get one point across. The last two verses say "Be-ing saved" that's an ongoing process and John 6:47 "believes" is another mistranslation in the KJV as that word in it's grammar is another present active participle - which is "continuous action" --- those or "he who continuously believes has everlasting life" ... same with many other places where the root word "pisteou" is used in the Greek.

Unless you believe in "predestination" [I don't know if you do or not] the others are based upon the "foreknowledge of God" about Him "knowing those that are His" before the foundation of the world -- that they will remain faithful or those who are being spoken to or those who eternal life is being offered to - will remain "faithful unto death".

Those whom He "foreknew" that would remain faithful unto death and finish the race, are OSAS. We don't know who will - but with Paul we can say these words in Phil 3:7-15.

In Romans 5 which you quoted one verse - Paul is explaining salvation and what The Lord has provided to those who will "follow Him", "after they've counted the cost" as Jesus said. What is this "cost" that Jesus talks about in Luke 14?

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And these are just 11 verses out of one Gospel. We cannot prove a doctrine with just one verse here and there and that's been the whole problem with these debates and why the tempers flare when anyone starts to post more than one verse and sola scriptura. HIS WORD never goes out void - it accomplishes one thing or the other. The fire of the Holy Spirit/the Spirit of truth's fire or the other kind of fire.

We'll see that principle of the two fires soon in this world and from this world.

 

[Hoffco]

As I was saying: Eph. 2:4,8 is the POWERFUL GRACE that gives us the New Birth spoken of in Eph. 1:18-19 . It is given ,sovereignly because we are Dead in sin. God makes us alive then we can believe and begin to obey God in works of faith. God's effectual ,powerful, "calling" is the new birth. Once God "saves"us then we can Repent,Trust and Obey for salvation, eternal life. Hoffco

 

[Hizikyah]

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
Mattithyah 19:17, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh."


God is Love. Jesus was tempted in every way we are yet without sin. He offered himself for the sins of the world." NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" He paid the price and overcame the law of sin and death. Sin has been defeated if we accept what God did. Sin has no power over us unless we allow it through disobedience or deception. Yes, we can slip from time to time and we will. Grace is no a license to sin. Th elaw as a schoolmaster. A schoolmaster that showed man how unrighteous he was in himself. It was Love for us all that held Jesus on the cross.....an innocent man and God in one. We are free...works are an outward produce of and inward transformation made possible by the precious blood of Jeus sChrist for you and me and all if they accept it.

Thank you for posting this, and supreme thanks to Yahweh for He guides!!!

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

 

[passinthru]

Kenneth had trouble using you post so I copied and pasted part here. see above folks.
>>Here in these next set of scriptures which I have given different bible versions. Paul is talking to Timothy and tells him not to share in or take part in others sins, and to keep himself pure. I would ask that if sin can not be imputed on to a believer once they are in Christ. Why does Paul warn Timothy of becoming impure again do to sin?
This would have to mean that sin can be imputed and counted against the believer, and future sins are still a danger in our lives.<<

We all have a sinful nature within us. FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Keeping ourselves pure is important even if not totally possible. (All have sinned and come short.....) (He who says he has no sin is deceived) etc.
After conversion if someone truly has accepted Christ God's desire is that we grow in Him and ;grow in grace' (there;s a discussion point )....so how do we grow in him? Through his word. Faith in God's word comes by hearing but faith in other things that draw on the old nature within us can lead us away from what God's desires are for us. So, " be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind" ...... if a person is clean and sits in the mud all day they will tend to get dirty. Is God sitting there ready to squash us like a bug? No.....but the enemy is going about 'as a roaring lion' seeking who he may devour. " Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" ....Lots creatures out there but we do not need to be conformed to the world to be in it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth had trouble using you post so I copied and pasted part here. see above folks.
>>Here in these next set of scriptures which I have given different bible versions. Paul is talking to Timothy and tells him not to share in or take part in others sins, and to keep himself pure. I would ask that if sin can not be imputed on to a believer once they are in Christ. Why does Paul warn Timothy of becoming impure again do to sin?
This would have to mean that sin can be imputed and counted against the believer, and future sins are still a danger in our lives.<<

We all have a sinful nature within us. FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Keeping ourselves pure is important even if not totally possible. (All have sinned and come short.....) (He who says he has no sin is deceived) etc.
After conversion if someone truly has accepted Christ God's desire is that we grow in Him and ;grow in grace' (there;s a discussion point )....so how do we grow in him? Through his word. Faith in God's word comes by hearing but faith in other things that draw on the old nature within us can lead us away from what God's desires are for us. So, " be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind" ...... if a person is clean and sits in the mud all day they will tend to get dirty. Is God sitting there ready to squash us like a bug? No.....but the enemy is going about 'as a roaring lion' seeking who he may devour. " Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" ....Lots creatures out there but we do not need to be conformed to the world to be in it.

Yes, and I posted that because of the confusion that was being spread around that once in Christ sin can not be imputed or counted against a believer. This is a clear cut warning from Paul to Timothy that they can...

 

[passinthru]

Yes, and I posted that because of the confusion that was being spread around that once in Christ sin can not be imputed or counted against a believer. This is a clear cut warning from Paul to Timothy that they can...

Even though the War was won on the Cross the battle still rages. We cannot be pure enough on our own to deserve what has been already bought and paid for by the precious blood of Jesus. That is fact. However we are not talking about heaven or hell here we are talking about walking the walk as best we can. The leading of the Spirit of God is the path to take. If we look back to the world the Spirit can be quenched. One guy said when he went to drink a beer that that something within him said NO NO . After three or four that voice got softer and softer. Abstaining form all appearance of evil is to our benefit and to the benefit of all around us. Paul said something to the effect that all things were okay for him but all was not expedient. Does that fit in here somehow? .... Hey Gotta get some sleep... Praise God for all of you here...we are seeking aren't we ?

 

[ChristIsGod]

So amazing brother! It's really needed for all to realize that when the New Testament writers were actually doing these things that's written about, ..there was no New Testament..as it was not yet written as it was still being lived out!! The New Testament is drawn from the Old!! They were quoting from the Old!! Any who believed in Messiah would have had to study Torah if they were committed to following Him!! To say that the New conflicts the Old, or that Messiah abolished the instructions, or that looking upon the 10 Words makes you want to sin......oy vey.

Who wishes for no one to follow Almighty's instructions?....here's a hint...once upon a time there was a garden...

Very good insight, Sister.

To just explain something of what has happened .... The Lord wouldn't let me "get into" the Old Testament that much until I had fully taken in His New Covenant and fully understood it alone until many years later He nudged me into the Old and I was actually Amazed at what I was seeing there -- how much of what was being said that had been said by Jesus Himself and by His N.T. writers, just in slightly different words - [Well, He is the Word] - so it shouldn't have surprised me but yet it did -- as so many teachers and preachers over the years make us think that the two books are two 'different' books ... but they are one - just two different means of salvation as in Two Covenants.
It's over-whelming when it hits, that this God-man that we call "Jesus" is the same GOD of the O.T. -- that every word in there is The Word of God that was made flesh and that created all things and that this Creator God came to earth and walked among us and died on that cross for His creation. I'll never take that lightly - not the Word of God nor The Word of God made flesh - One and The Same.

It shouldn't have surprised me when I saw His Words from the New, in the Old, but it did.

Last night I was rejoicing in "Immanuel" - Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

H6005 עמּנוּאל ‛immânû'êl im-maw-noo-ale'
From H5973 [equally with] and H410 [mighty / God] with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel.

Just a small quote from Keil & Delitzsch ~ "But the further question arises here, What constituted the extraordinary character of the fact here announced? It consisted in the fact, that, according to Isa_9:5, Immanuel Himself was to be a פֶּלֶא (wonder or wonderful). He would be God in corporeal self-manifestation, and therefore a "wonder" as being a superhuman person. We should not venture to assert this if it went beyond the line of Old Testament revelation, but the prophet asserts it himself in Isa_9:5 (cf., Isa_10:21): his words are as clear as possible; and we must not make them obscure, to favour any preconceived notions as to the development of history. The incarnation of Deity was unquestionably a secret that was not clearly unveiled in the Old Testament, but the veil was not so thick but that some rays could pass through. Such a ray, directed by the spirit of prophecy into the mind of the prophet, was the prediction of Immanuel. But if the Messiah was to be Immanuel in this sense, that He would Himself be El (God), as the prophet expressly affirms, His birth must also of necessity be a wonderful or miraculous one. The prophet does not affirm, indeed, that the "almah," who had as yet known no man, would give birth to Immanuel without this taking place, so that he could not be born of the house of David as well as into it, but be a gift of Heaven itself; but this "almah" or virgin continued throughout an enigma in the Old Testament, stimulating "inquiry" (1Pe_1:10-12), and waiting for the historical solution. Thus the sign in question was, on the one hand, a mystery glaring in the most threatening manner upon the house of David; and, on the other hand, a mystery smiling with which consolation upon the prophet and all believers, and couched in these enigmatical terms, in order that those who hardened themselves might not understand it, and that believers might increasingly long to comprehend its meaning."

Amen!

[video=youtube;bPfdD3pBUig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPfdD3pBUig[/video]​

 

[Karraster]

Very good insight, Sister.

To just explain something of what has happened .... The Lord wouldn't let me "get into" the Old Testament that much until I had fully taken in His New Covenant and fully understood it alone until many years later He nudged me into the Old and I was actually Amazed at what I was seeing there -- how much of what was being said that had been said by Jesus Himself and by His N.T. writers, just in slightly different words - [Well, He is the Word] - so it shouldn't have surprised me but yet it did -- as so many teachers and preachers over the years make us think that the two books are two 'different' books ... but they are one - just two different means of salvation as in Two Covenants.
It's over-whelming when it hits, that this God-man that we call "Jesus" is the same GOD of the O.T. -- that every word in there is The Word of God that was made flesh and that created all things and that this Creator God came to earth and walked among us and died on that cross for His creation. I'll never take that lightly - not the Word of God nor The Word of God made flesh - One and The Same.

It shouldn't have surprised me when I saw His Words from the New, in the Old, but it did.

Last night I was rejoicing in "Immanuel" - Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

H6005 עמּנוּאל ‛immânû'êl im-maw-noo-ale'
From H5973 [equally with] and H410 [mighty / God] with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel.

Just a small quote from Keil & Delitzsch ~ "But the further question arises here, What constituted the extraordinary character of the fact here announced? It consisted in the fact, that, according to Isa_9:5, Immanuel Himself was to be a פֶּלֶא (wonder or wonderful). He would be God in corporeal self-manifestation, and therefore a "wonder" as being a superhuman person. We should not venture to assert this if it went beyond the line of Old Testament revelation, but the prophet asserts it himself in Isa_9:5 (cf., Isa_10:21): his words are as clear as possible; and we must not make them obscure, to favour any preconceived notions as to the development of history. The incarnation of Deity was unquestionably a secret that was not clearly unveiled in the Old Testament, but the veil was not so thick but that some rays could pass through. Such a ray, directed by the spirit of prophecy into the mind of the prophet, was the prediction of Immanuel. But if the Messiah was to be Immanuel in this sense, that He would Himself be El (God), as the prophet expressly affirms, His birth must also of necessity be a wonderful or miraculous one. The prophet does not affirm, indeed, that the "almah," who had as yet known no man, would give birth to Immanuel without this taking place, so that he could not be born of the house of David as well as into it, but be a gift of Heaven itself; but this "almah" or virgin continued throughout an enigma in the Old Testament, stimulating "inquiry" (1Pe_1:10-12), and waiting for the historical solution. Thus the sign in question was, on the one hand, a mystery glaring in the most threatening manner upon the house of David; and, on the other hand, a mystery smiling with which consolation upon the prophet and all believers, and couched in these enigmatical terms, in order that those who hardened themselves might not understand it, and that believers might increasingly long to comprehend its meaning."

Amen!

Thanks for sharing that. Isn't it beyond imagination how our Creator has made everything that is, yet has personally come to us all beckoning and wooing us to win our love!! He has made a way for us to walk with Him into eternity. I used to wonder how it could be possible to look forward to His return, because life is good on earth with many loved ones, I want to stay as long as I can..but then He caused me to see that He longs to claim what is rightfully His, He longs for that day! Perspective is so much brighter from His viewpoint, and not my selfish own.
My grandma read the Bible a lot, every day I'd visit, she lived next door. She'd read it to me before I was able to read. A little woman and frail, but she was spirit filled and sometimes she would lay the Bible in her lap just to free her hands to clap and shout. She loved it all, Old and New... had a way of explaining in a way a child could understand..just ask Jesus to be your friend, and you will never be alone because He will never leave or forsake you. So I did, and she was right!

 

[ChristIsGod]

That's beautiful, Sis!!
I can only imagine having a grand-mother like that. Mine was very strict. She'd been hurt pretty badly in the Russian pogroms and when she came to America at 14 she was all alone and ashamed of where she came from and that from an early age, with the persecution against the Jews, she was also ashamed of being a Jew as well. She went through a lot. Her days were just like those of that movie, "Fiddler on the Roof" and they had to pack up with her 9 siblings and take off with their wagon and just basically become gypsies or something like it, escaping Russia. I lived with her from about 2 till 12, but I'm glad I did because she learned to fix anything and knew how to make things last and stretch - like washing tin foil and bread bags to reuse as storage. But she was strong like a he-woman, I guess after all she went through. Near her 90's, she excepted the Lord - but before that she became somewhat Catholic because my Italian greandfather that was a sweet man fell in love with her. No one knew that she was Jewish but it came out when my brother had a security clearance. She was 85 by then.

You were blessed to be raised up with a grandmother that read His Word and led you in the right direction. The only blessing for me was that she hung the picture at the end of my bed that I have under my sign-on name. I love that picture because it made me believe in Him as a wee kid. And that He's on the Mount of Olives, over-looking the Dome of the Rock, like almost waiting for the Day when He'll be the visible King of Israel. Whatever it is - it led me to Christ just looking at that picture.

You're a great Sister, Sister and I appreciate you sharing any thing that comes to your mind like this. Very much so.

The LORD Bless you and see you when He we see our Beloved Bridegroom!

 

[Timeline]

Paul;

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Leviticus 20:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]‘If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
John 8:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, [SUP]4 [/SUP]they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” [SUP]6 [/SUP]They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. [SUP]9 [/SUP]When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

Was Jesus modeling the letter of the Law or the Spirit of the Law when he said, " I do not condemn you, either. From now on sin no more." ?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?


James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Galatians 5:1-15
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]A little leaven leavens the whole lump (Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.) of dough. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Acts 15:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and
from blood and
from things strangled and
from fornication;

if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”




This is the Law given us by our Lord Jesus:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and foremost commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Romans 13:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now that I've established that we are under the Law of Love and Grace, I must learn to Love.

Lord, I do love, help my un-love - I assume that you aware of the verse that inspired this comment

 

[Hizikyah]

Leviticus 20:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]‘If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
John 8:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, [SUP]4 [/SUP]they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” [SUP]6 [/SUP]They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. [SUP]9 [/SUP]When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

Was Jesus modeling the letter of the Law or the Spirit of the Law when he said, " I do not condemn you, either. From now on sin no more." ?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?


James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Galatians 5:1-15
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]A little leaven leavens the whole lump (Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.) of dough. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Acts 15:28-29
[SUP]28[/SUP]“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and
from blood and
from things strangled and
from fornication;

if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”




This is the Law given us by our Lord Jesus:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and foremost commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Romans 13:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Now that I've established that we are under the Law of Love and Grace, I must learn to Love.

Lord, I do love, help my un-love - I assume that you aware of the verse that inspired this comment

Thank you!

I really enjoyed this post, I hate to have to say this because disagree here...


1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

I think this verse shows Paul's humanity.

Messiah is the ONLY PERFECT example (blueprint of Righteousness)

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

 

[Timeline]

So, John 1:17 huh? How about if you explain why Mat 19:17 is not grace and truth?

Oh and by the way, why do you suppose that someone who believes that we should be obedient to the Law is seeking to justify themselves by the Law?

How about if you address the fact that when we break the Law we sin and that we need the grace of God daily for our sins?

Or do you believe that you don't sin?

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Romans 4:15
for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, [SUP]2 [/SUP]but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; [SUP]8 [/SUP]we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; [SUP]9 [/SUP]persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [SUP]10 [/SUP]always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So death works in us, but life in you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, [SUP]14 [/SUP]knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, [SUP]18 [/SUP]while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.