THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
By the way...the KJV was not the first English bible to use the name james...I thought the same thing...but was wrong
J
the letter is a late modification of Roman -i-, originally a scribal creation in continental Medieval Latin to distinguish small -i- in cursive writing from the strokes of other letters, especially in the final positions of words. But in English, -y- was used for this, and -j- was introduced c.1600-1640 to take up the consonantal sound that had evolved from -i- since Late Latin times. This usage first was attested in Spanish, where it was in place before 1600. English dictionaries continued to lump together words beginning in -i- and -j- until 19c., and -j- formerly was skipped when letters were used to express serial order.

"Sometime back, I noticed as I played around in the Greek New Testament, (I'm not a Greek scholar by the way) that the book of James was missing in the Greek. James was called "Jacobus" which is the Greek form of the Hebrew "Iacob" which should come into the English as "Jacob." In the Old Testament "Iacob" was translated "Jacob." The question arose in my mind. Why didn't the translators stay consistent and translate "Iacobus" as "Jacob." How did this word "James" get into the Bible?
At the time I started this fun little dig, I looked up the word "James" and discovered it came from a French word "Jamnes" which seemed to refer to the leg. The Biblical story of Jacob grabbing Esau's "heel" or "leg" may have been the connection to "Jamnes." My little French-English dictionary has an entry for "jambe" which means leg or shank.
The Oxford English dictionary seems to trace James through the Spanish "Jaime." James the Greater was the patron saint of Spain. In the Spanish, the closest meaning I could get to the meaning connected with Jacob was "jamon" which meant "ham, or leg of ham." (The "leg" part is what I am referring to, not the ham.)
Few of us realize the English language is primarily German which has been modified by Latin, Danish, and French.
In the thirteenth century, the Normans of France gained control of the English government. At that time, according to a wonderful little book I purchased entitled The Handbook of the English Tongue printed in 1862, "English boys were taught French in grammar schools and had to construe their Latin into French. Members of universities were ordered to converse in Latin or French. Proceedings of parliament and the minutes of the corporation of London were recorded in French. And of all the authorities who wrote in the three centuries following the Norman Conquest, nearly all use the French language" (Handbook of the English Tongue, Joseph Angus, 1862, Page 51) Most of the populace did not switch over to the degree the aristocracy did.
At this point in time, I haven't completely discovered when Jacob, the heel grabber, the one who trips people up through his natural wisdom, became James, referring to the time when his strength left him and he was forced to lean on Yahweh. I know that the Roman Catholic Vulgate has as the title for the book of James Beati Jacobi Apostoli. Clearly, here Jacob has not become James. I am not a Latin scholar, but if apostoli means "apostle," then the Vulgate seems to have added this to the Greek text because I don't think it is there. It is just amazing how church tradition gets added to Bibles, including Protestant ones. The Geneva Bible has Iames, the "J" not coming into English until later.
I still have to play with this some more. Unfortunately, I don't have in my library enough of the older English translations prior to the King James Version. I called one of the leading seminary libraries in the country prior to publishing this edition of Dew and they couldn't nail it down for me. Perhaps by the next Dew someone will find the time period where Jacob became James."

Ok im listening.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Beware of those that call themselves teacher. Just sayin. :)

You do know there is a difference between going by the title of teacher, and saying you teach others.
For we are all called to teach the aspects of the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
Well brothers and sisters I am new here.
Not a bible scholar but a true believer in what Jesus has done for us all. Not perfect but perfected in Him and Him alone. Jesus 'paid a debt he didn't owe and we owed a Debt we couldn't pay' , as the song says. Did he pay the debt?
Was it true when he said: It is finished"? The Lamb of God.....tempted in all ways that we are yet without sin. The perfect sacrifice done for all who believe in Him. The Law? We can live under the law of the sprit of life in Christ Jesus as he has set us free from what? The law of sin and death! You sin you die!! Now...should we continue in sin so grace can abound? No ....Paul said "God Forbid". h ealso said that he the things that he would do he doesn't and the things he wouldn't do he does..... he says it is no longer him but the old nature within him. So...law vs grace? I am pretty sure that the word says that no one can keep the law. God is love and His word is true and infallible. When we fall short he is faithfull to forgive us. Agree? This does not give us a license to sin but it does let us know that the grace of God is a powerfull force. God is full of grace and full of mercy. God is Love...without faith it is impossible to please him...and..and... FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE. Almost too simple for many to understand.
So do we debate law vs grace....??? Hmm..... Not by works lest any man should boast ....make sense.
Not sure where all of you are coming from but I trust everyone has confidence in where they are going LOL. Someday on the other side all will bee seen clearly. Pretty cool actually :) Thank God!
 
E

ELECT

Guest
J
the letter is a late modification of Roman -i-, originally a scribal creation in continental Medieval Latin to distinguish small -i- in cursive writing from the strokes of other letters, especially in the final positions of words. But in English, -y- was used for this, and -j- was introduced c.1600-1640 to take up the consonantal sound that had evolved from -i- since Late Latin times. This usage first was attested in Spanish, where it was in place before 1600. English dictionaries continued to lump together words beginning in -i- and -j- until 19c., and -j- formerly was skipped when letters were used to express serial order.

"Sometime back, I noticed as I played around in the Greek New Testament, (I'm not a Greek scholar by the way) that the book of James was missing in the Greek. James was called "Jacobus" which is the Greek form of the Hebrew "Iacob" which should come into the English as "Jacob." In the Old Testament "Iacob" was translated "Jacob." The question arose in my mind. Why didn't the translators stay consistent and translate "Iacobus" as "Jacob." How did this word "James" get into the Bible?
At the time I started this fun little dig, I looked up the word "James" and discovered it came from a French word "Jamnes" which seemed to refer to the leg. The Biblical story of Jacob grabbing Esau's "heel" or "leg" may have been the connection to "Jamnes." My little French-English dictionary has an entry for "jambe" which means leg or shank.
The Oxford English dictionary seems to trace James through the Spanish "Jaime." James the Greater was the patron saint of Spain. In the Spanish, the closest meaning I could get to the meaning connected with Jacob was "jamon" which meant "ham, or leg of ham." (The "leg" part is what I am referring to, not the ham.)
Few of us realize the English language is primarily German which has been modified by Latin, Danish, and French.
In the thirteenth century, the Normans of France gained control of the English government. At that time, according to a wonderful little book I purchased entitled The Handbook of the English Tongue printed in 1862, "English boys were taught French in grammar schools and had to construe their Latin into French. Members of universities were ordered to converse in Latin or French. Proceedings of parliament and the minutes of the corporation of London were recorded in French. And of all the authorities who wrote in the three centuries following the Norman Conquest, nearly all use the French language" (Handbook of the English Tongue, Joseph Angus, 1862, Page 51) Most of the populace did not switch over to the degree the aristocracy did.
At this point in time, I haven't completely discovered when Jacob, the heel grabber, the one who trips people up through his natural wisdom, became James, referring to the time when his strength left him and he was forced to lean on Yahweh. I know that the Roman Catholic Vulgate has as the title for the book of James Beati Jacobi Apostoli. Clearly, here Jacob has not become James. I am not a Latin scholar, but if apostoli means "apostle," then the Vulgate seems to have added this to the Greek text because I don't think it is there. It is just amazing how church tradition gets added to Bibles, including Protestant ones. The Geneva Bible has Iames, the "J" not coming into English until later.
I still have to play with this some more. Unfortunately, I don't have in my library enough of the older English translations prior to the King James Version. I called one of the leading seminary libraries in the country prior to publishing this edition of Dew and they couldn't nail it down for me. Perhaps by the next Dew someone will find the time period where Jacob became James."

Ok im listening.

What does this veres mean ?
[h=1]Psalm 19 King James Version (KJV)[/h]19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

God confouded the languges

 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
The first repentance we are called to is repentance from unbelief and then dead works...without those there is not true repentance for sin.
So, you are accusing some here of not being saved and this next quoted reply to Kenneth proves that.

_______________________________________________________________________________________


Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

I never said righteousness comes from the law, nor do I preach to follow the mosaic laws.
This is a false allegation others have put on me because I preach love and obedience to the Lord.
There is a big difference between the two.



I gave you the benefit of the doubt before but its clear now that you are teaching self-righteousness....sorry the truth is the truth friend :)


For the life of me - I've watched for ANYONE [on either side of these debates] that seems to be saying to another that they aren't saved --- and anyone "teaching self righteousness" isn't Saved -- so in two posts, that I've seen, you are insinuating that this Brother isn't saved ....... and to tell you the truth - I've only seen your side of this argument as the only ones going that far.

Titus 3:10 - tells me now that I've wasted my time writing to you as well, just because I thought your being a continuationist would have made you different somehow ... oh, never mind.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
We should keep in mind that a gift can not be received until it is given to them/him. This is the case with salvation ,we are dead to God and God has to make us alive before we will come to receive the gift. So, one has to be loved and elected in God's mind before creation, then, to the elect, God will give the gift of salvation by the effectual calling of God Himself, which is the new birth. Now, the other side is also true, If we seek God with all of our heart God promises us, we will find Him. The error is, that most Christians will not believe both sides of salvation. God's side and our side. Love to all , Hoffco
 
P

psychomom

Guest
No they just keep some here and there and it don't really matter because you just have to try ..unless its somebody else...then the standard must be kept! But they don't don't keep it at all...but you better or God will get you! They have a get out of the law card...but no one else has one :(
is it just me? (quite possibly! lol)

or does it seem the debate has shifted to more of an assurance of salvation/
Who does the Work of salvation kinda thing?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Well brothers and sisters I am new here.
Not a bible scholar but a true believer in what Jesus has done for us all. Not perfect but perfected in Him and Him alone. Jesus 'paid a debt he didn't owe and we owed a Debt we couldn't pay' , as the song says. Did he pay the debt?
Was it true when he said: It is finished"? The Lamb of God.....tempted in all ways that we are yet without sin. The perfect sacrifice done for all who believe in Him. The Law? We can live under the law of the sprit of life in Christ Jesus as he has set us free from what? The law of sin and death! You sin you die!! Now...should we continue in sin so grace can abound? No ....Paul said "God Forbid". h ealso said that he the things that he would do he doesn't and the things he wouldn't do he does..... he says it is no longer him but the old nature within him. So...law vs grace? I am pretty sure that the word says that no one can keep the law. God is love and His word is true and infallible. When we fall short he is faithfull to forgive us. Agree? This does not give us a license to sin but it does let us know that the grace of God is a powerfull force. God is full of grace and full of mercy. God is Love...without faith it is impossible to please him...and..and... FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE. Almost too simple for many to understand.
So do we debate law vs grace....??? Hmm..... Not by works lest any man should boast ....make sense.
Not sure where all of you are coming from but I trust everyone has confidence in where they are going LOL. Someday on the other side all will bee seen clearly. Pretty cool actually :) Thank God!

The confusion that keeps us debating this issue is that some of us are preaching from a works done out of love and obedience to our Lord side, and it is getting confused by others who think we are teaching legalism or that we have to keep and obey the mosaic laws which we are not. At least that is not what I am not doing.
I have always stated that the written ordinances of the mosaic law has been blotted out ( Colossians 2:14 )

I teach from the aspect that our Lord said that if you love Him, you will keep His commandments and also in Luke 6 Jesus says that those who believe in Him will be a hearer and a doer of His words. One who has love for Him, it will show in their actions and in the way they talk/words used.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Exodus 15:2-3, "Yahweh is my strength and song, and He has become my Salvation, He is My Heavenly Father and I will praise Him; My father's Father and I will exalt Him. Yahweh is a man of war; Yahweh is His Name."

Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."

 
P

passinthru

Guest
You do know there is a difference between going by the title of teacher, and saying you teach others.
For we are all called to teach the aspects of the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We have all be given the ministry of reconciliation. I have done a lot of street ministry as I assume many others have as well. There are many lost souls out there who are searching for love in all the wrong places. We, the ones who have accepted Christ as our savior are commissioned to spread the good news to all. Some ground is good and some is bad but as one plants and one waters it is up to God to give the increase. Jesus loves you right where you are..period. Some can get to appoint where they think more highly of themselves than they should. I think we have all been there to one degree or another. Lucifer beheld his beauty... wooo.. what a mistake. pride? Not good. Bottom line.... without Jesus we would eb nothing bit IN Him we can be all he wants us to be if we humble ourselves. Is this by works? Well it is work but I tis only made possible through a Loving God and the blood of Jesus Christ that through grace it can happen.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Proverbs 30:5 - Every word of Yah is pure: He [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in Him.
 
P

passinthru

Guest
The confusion that keeps us debating this issue is that some of us are preaching from a works done out of love and obedience to our Lord side, and it is getting confused by others who think we are teaching legalism or that we have to keep and obey the mosaic laws which we are not. At least that is not what I am not doing.
I have always stated that the written ordinances of the mosaic law has been blotted out ( Colossians 2:14 )

I teach from the aspect that our Lord said that if you love Him, you will keep His commandments and also in Luke 6 Jesus says that those who believe in Him will be a hearer and a doer of His words. One who has love for Him, it will show in their actions and in the way they talk/words used.
My brother who is the author of confusion? Does confusion cause division within the body of Christ? I think everyone here is against confusion and division. Personally I agree 100 percent that works are a product of salvation and not a means to it...period. Is anyone confused about this? " Not by works lest any man should boast" pretty clear? If we walk in the Spirit we walk in love. This Love walk (Waking with God) will keep us from doing bad works and help us to do good works. Did the works save us? NO NO NO....They are an outward product from and inward transformation made possible by the cross of Jeus sChrist and Him alone! Doing good works ALONE is based on self !! God forbid! Doing good works as God desires is base don what he has done in our life. We are new creatures in Him.....old things have passed away and all thing shave become new. That doesn't mean that all these new things will surface right away but as we grow more into Him they will become more and more evident.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Well brothers and sisters I am new here.
Not a bible scholar but a true believer in what Jesus has done for us all. Not perfect but perfected in Him and Him alone. Jesus 'paid a debt he didn't owe and we owed a Debt we couldn't pay' , as the song says. Did he pay the debt?
Was it true when he said: It is finished"? The Lamb of God.....tempted in all ways that we are yet without sin. The perfect sacrifice done for all who believe in Him. The Law? We can live under the law of the sprit of life in Christ Jesus as he has set us free from what? The law of sin and death! You sin you die!! Now...should we continue in sin so grace can abound? No ....Paul said "God Forbid". h ealso said that he the things that he would do he doesn't and the things he wouldn't do he does..... he says it is no longer him but the old nature within him. So...law vs grace? I am pretty sure that the word says that no one can keep the law. God is love and His word is true and infallible. When we fall short he is faithfull to forgive us. Agree? This does not give us a license to sin but it does let us know that the grace of God is a powerfull force. God is full of grace and full of mercy. God is Love...without faith it is impossible to please him...and..and... FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE. Almost too simple for many to understand.
So do we debate law vs grace....??? Hmm..... Not by works lest any man should boast ....make sense.
Not sure where all of you are coming from but I trust everyone has confidence in where they are going LOL. Someday on the other side all will bee seen clearly. Pretty cool actually :) Thank God!
I think Paul is awe inspiring, a true servant of the Most High. We can see how Paul grew in faith, (matured) and some time after he said what you quoted, .."the things that he would do he doesn't and the things he wouldn't do he did..."


He said this: "
[h=1]2 Timothy 4 (KJ21)[/h] 4 I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]preach the Word; be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have fought a good fight; I have finished my course; I have kept the faith.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
We have all be given the ministry of reconciliation. I have done a lot of street ministry as I assume many others have as well. There are many lost souls out there who are searching for love in all the wrong places. We, the ones who have accepted Christ as our savior are commissioned to spread the good news to all. Some ground is good and some is bad but as one plants and one waters it is up to God to give the increase. Jesus loves you right where you are..period. Some can get to appoint where they think more highly of themselves than they should. I think we have all been there to one degree or another. Lucifer beheld his beauty... wooo.. what a mistake. pride? Not good. Bottom line.... without Jesus we would eb nothing bit IN Him we can be all he wants us to be if we humble ourselves. Is this by works? Well it is work but I tis only made possible through a Loving God and the blood of Jesus Christ that through grace it can happen.

All that you say here is true, and good.
Like I have said before I try not to get that way, and through the help of the Holy Spirit I bridle my tongue a lot and use self control to not just start jumping up and down on others. As this is not befitting a person of God. One of the callings that I have felt in my life from the Holy Spirit is to be adamant about preaching the warnings from the bible to believers about sin and how it can still affect us. I have tried to get into hard core prophecy study, and even inspirational scriptural learning so that I can be better at edifying others. But the Holy Spirit keeps pulling me back to teaching others about the warnings of sins like Paul, Peter, James, and John did.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
I can tell you this much - the antinomianists will always continue to get a lot more understanding, coddling, comforting, acceptance, and "likes" than any of us will ever see. Post just Scripture and see what you get -- but post that you partake regularly in porn and they'll be posting comforting scriptures, to comfort you while you continue on in it .... have seen it done, friends, more than once.


We'll always and only be called "self-righteous" - "arrogant" - "Mosaic or just plain ol' law keepers" - "legalists" - "not saved" - and "@^%&&%#" !


:p who cares what we're accused of when posting sola scriptura - as happened to each of us today that are the no-good-lousey-law-keeping-false-pompous-teachers-taking-God's-glory-from-Him-and-bragging-about-our-own-self-righteousness-etc-etc..




adding that I can't "bridle my tongue" in this post.
 
Last edited:

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.
What is "sound doctrine"

Scripture interprets Scripture:

1 Timothy 1:10, "For whoremongers; sodomites, for fornicators for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers; vowing oaths falsely, and all other things that are opposed to sound doctrine."

Proverbs 4:1-4,27, "Hear, O children, the instruction of Yahweh. Pay attention, so you may grow in understanding; For I give you sound doctrine, so do not forsake my Law; torah, instruction, teaching. When I was my father's son, tender and beloved in the sight of my mother, He also taught me, and said to me: Let your mind retain; grasp and hold onto, my words. Keep my Laws; instructions, and live! Do not turn to the right or the left; walk away from evil."
 
P

passinthru

Guest
All that you say here is true, and good.
Like I have said before I try not to get that way, and through the help of the Holy Spirit I bridle my tongue a lot and use self control to not just start jumping up and down on others. As this is not befitting a person of God. One of the callings that I have felt in my life from the Holy Spirit is to be adamant about preaching the warnings from the bible to believers about sin and how it can still affect us. I have tried to get into hard core prophecy study, and even inspirational scriptural learning so that I can be better at edifying others. But the Holy Spirit keeps pulling me back to teaching others about the warnings of sins like Paul, Peter, James, and John did.
I understand totally. I feel it is God's plan for us to live a life that will draw others to Him. Maybe through us to appoint of course because we are his vessels on earth. The old song said " You are the only Jesus the world will ever see" or something close to that. So much truth there. Kinda puts the scripture that says about refraining from all appearance of evil into the limelight. So..... excuse my rambling but the works that are done as children of th eking are not what save us . It was His work that allowed us to be saved due to God's grace. This was a gift. The theif on the cross? Works? What works? He was there for a reason and not because he skipped sunday school. But how powerfull was Jesus' response to him? Today you shall be with me in Paradise........Wow..... today is the day of salvation. We live in a world that is lost and dying and crying out for an answer. We here know the answer. It is Jesus Christ....The way the truth and the life.....NO MAN comes to the father but by me. CAN'T EARN A GIFT THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN GIVEN. In fact if we keep trying to climb a latter based on works alone we are setting ourselves up for a fall. Yes,,,grace makes a great landing net but if we quit leaning on our own u
nderstanding we might get to the top of that ladder sooner with great joy so that people will not see us but maybe see a bit of Him in us.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

Does these two contradict each other? Absolutely not, for we do not take credit for the works done in our life, but they are a prerequisite of a believers life that we walk in. Love, obedience all follow a true believers walk.
We do slip up from time to time, but we have a just Lord and Savior that when we confess our sins He will forgive us of them.
(1 John 1:9)
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
Ok im listening.


Psalm 133:3
King James Bible
As the Dew of Hermon, and as the Dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
What is "sound doctrine"

Scripture interprets Scripture:

1 Timothy 1:10, "For whoremongers; sodomites, for fornicators for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers; vowing oaths falsely, and all other things that are opposed to sound doctrine."

Proverbs 4:1-4,27, "Hear, O children, the instruction of Yahweh. Pay attention, so you may grow in understanding; For I give you sound doctrine, so do not forsake my Law; torah, instruction, teaching. When I was my father's son, tender and beloved in the sight of my mother, He also taught me, and said to me: Let your mind retain; grasp and hold onto, my words. Keep my Laws; instructions, and live! Do not turn to the right or the left; walk away from evil."
So amazing brother! It's really needed for all to realize that when the New Testament writers were actually doing these things that's written about, ..there was no New Testament..as it was not yet written as it was still being lived out!! The New Testament is drawn from the Old!! They were quoting from the Old!! Any who believed in Messiah would have had to study Torah if they were committed to following Him!! To say that the New conflicts the Old, or that Messiah abolished the instructions, or that looking upon the 10 Words makes you want to sin......oy vey.

Who wishes for no one to follow Almighty's instructions?....here's a hint...once upon a time there was a garden...