THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

yes he did.

so you KNOW you will make it to heaven based solely on the blood of Christ correct?

According to Scripture;

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

THAT IS WHY SCRIPTURE SAYS:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to Scripture;

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

THAT IS WHY SCRIPTURE SAYS:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Heb 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed. "

so who is it who obeys?

those who have the spirit? or those who strive to follow Gods commands?

the gentiles followed Gods law written in their heart, the jews had the law and could not keep them..

were the gentiles saved and the jews lost?

 

[Hizikyah]

so who is it who obeys?

those who have the spirit? or those who strive to follow Gods commands?

the gentiles followed Gods law written in their heart, the jews had the law and could not keep them..

were the gentiles saved and the jews lost?

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."


Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, these are sons of Yahweh."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

Yet according to you. You still are not cursed by the law. yet right here it says you are.

do you not realize the least of ALL SIN is evil in the eyes of the holy God?

Yet admit you still are not perfect. you still sin, thus you still do evil.

but you can;t admit, that because of that evil, you are still judged,, why is that?

 

[newbirth]

No I am not perfect. I have not.

Does that mean I should ignore everything Yahshua (Jesus) said?

if you are walking after the Spirit then you fulfiling the requirements of the law...by admitting you are not fulfilling the requirements of the law you are admitting you are not walking after the spirit...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
one who walks after the Spirit also do the things contained in the law...but is not judged after the flesh...

 

[newbirth]

no I do not want the law to be a bad thing, it seems like you do. the law is a very good thing to those to whom it does what it was intended to do.

why will you not admit your still cursed by the law? is it that hard to admit what is fact?

what rubbish are you telling the man...how can one in Christ be cursed ...Christ died so we can be removed from the curse of the law and here you are telling a brother he must admit to being cursed...

 

[Hizikyah]

if you are walking after the Spirit then you fulfiling the requirements of the law...by admitting you are not fulfilling the requirements of the law you are admitting you are not walking after the spirit...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
one who walks after the Spirit also do the things contained in the law...but is not judged after the flesh...

Im not perfect so I feel it would be a lie to say that.

And being led by the Spirit and arriving a the final goal are two different things, until or if I ever do come to the perfection of Yahshua then I would possibly feel ok in saying that "I have fulfilled the Law" Until then I can not say that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im not perfect so I feel it would be a lie to say that.

And being led by the Spirit and arriving a the final goal are two different things, until or if I ever do come to the perfection of Yahshua then I would possibly feel ok in saying that "I have fulfilled the Law" Until then I can not say that.

just a question. not judging you. a sincere question

lets say you do come to the point where you can say "you have fulfilled the law) at some point in your life.

would you be (even at that time) secure enough to stand before a perfect, righteous and Holy God and say you have fulfilled the law?

or when you stand before him (on your own face hiding your face from God) would you beg for his mercy, because you have failed to live up to his righteous standard?

 

[newbirth]

Yet according to you. You still are not cursed by the law. yet right here it says you are.

do you not realize the least of ALL SIN is evil in the eyes of the holy God?

Yet admit you still are not perfect. you still sin, thus you still do evil.

but you can;t admit, that because of that evil, you are still judged,, why is that?

where does it say you are cursed?...if a man is in Christ judgement does not affect him...dead men cannot be cursed or be affected by the law......

 

[Mitspa]

what rubbish are you telling the man...how can one in Christ be cursed ...Christ died so we can be removed from the curse of the law and here you are telling a brother he must admit to being cursed...

I didn't see a desire to curse anyone but only make the point that those under the law are under its curse just as Paul made clear. Now to claim your under law and deny the curse is to deny the evident truth of Gods Word.

 

[john832]

Yet according to you. You still are not cursed by the law. yet right here it says you are.

No it really doesn't say that...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),

If you read the passage, instead of one verse, it says that Christ took the curse for us. He died in our stead and paid the price in full.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it really doesn't say that...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),

If you read the passage, instead of one verse, it says that Christ took the curse for us. He died in our stead and paid the price in full.

Yes, Paid in full..

So how then can you say one can lose that salvation, which was pain in full by Christ?

How can you say when you stand in front of God, You are better than ANY person sitting next to you (no matter how many sins they commited in their life) and you deserve it more than they do?

Has not God justified them also (if they were saved?)

 

[Mitspa]

where does it say you are cursed?...if a man is in Christ judgement does not affect him...dead men cannot be cursed or be affected by the law......

You can't have it both ways that's Paul's point in telling those who went back to the law. "You have fallen from grace". That means they was once in grace but had rejected the truth and was subject to the curse of the law because they put themselves under the law.

 

[newbirth]

Im not perfect so I feel it would be a lie to say that.

And being led by the Spirit and arriving a the final goal are two different things, until or if I ever do come to the perfection of Yahshua then I would possibly feel ok in saying that "I have fulfilled the Law" Until then I can not say that.

One walking in Christ is fulfilling the requirements of the law...what is the goal? is it not to follow after the Spirit....?That is what makes us sons...as long as we remain sons we share in the inheritance...
God speaks of thing that are not, as though they were...have the mind of Christ...that is faith ...that is hope...if you keep confessing you are not perfect...how can your hope be in Christ who makes you perfect....
Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Hizikyah]

just a question. not judging you. a sincere question

lets say you do come to the point where you can say "you have fulfilled the law) at some point in your life.

would you be (even at that time) secure enough to stand before a perfect, righteous and Holy God and say you have fulfilled the law?

or when you stand before him (on your own face hiding your face from God) would you beg for his mercy, because you have failed to live up to his righteous standard?

What is wrong with you. Really.

So you come up with all these scenarios like mouse traps, your something else, just trying to trip me up so hard....

You all brought this fulfill the Law thing up, Paul says when the Messiah is in one then they are fulfilling the Law, and what that really means, is they are walking in it.

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

I AM NOT THE JUDGE

I CAN NOT SAY THIS OR THAT IT IS FOR YAH.

And according to what I would do or think I would do in His presence, I do not feel comfortable saying this here, first if I was honest I would come off as wrong in some way because I was "acting" too respectful, or just "saying this or that", so I would rather take any criticism for not answering. But I will say this to hopefully alleviate anyone drawing their own conclusion, Yah is more important to me than anything I have ever known.

 

[Mitspa]

No it really doesn't say that...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),

If you read the passage, instead of one verse, it says that Christ took the curse for us. He died in our stead and paid the price in full.

Yea the point being in grace your free from the curse not when you put yourself back under the law. And if you do. You have to keep it all. Not just the parts your group thinks is nice to keep.

 

[Hizikyah]

One walking in Christ is fulfilling the requirements of the law...what is the goal? is it not to follow after the Spirit....?That is what makes us sons...as long as we remain sons we share in the inheritance...
God speaks of thing that are not, as though they were...have the mind of Christ...that is faith ...that is hope...if you keep confessing you are not perfect...how can your hope be in Christ who makes you perfect....
Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Im not perfect, claiming any different is folly IMO;

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

Simply trying to grow in Yahshua everyday.

Romans 12:3-5, "For by the unmerited mercy given to me, I say to everyone who is among you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought; but rather, think soberly, in accordance as Yahweh has dealt to each one the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function, So we, being many, are one body in Messiah: and each one members, one belonging to another."

 

[Hizikyah]

Yea the point being in grace your free from the curse not when you put yourself back under the law. And if you do. You have to keep it all. Not just the parts your group thinks is nice to keep.

Romans 3:31, "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

 

[newbirth]

You can't have it both ways that's Paul's point in telling those who went back to the law. "You have fallen from grace". That means they was once in grace but had rejected the truth and was subject to the curse of the law because they put themselves under the law.

can yo point out who is going back to the law...???Paul was talking primarily about circumcision...which was the requirement for inclusion under the Mosaic law...those who were baptised into Christ were being compelled by the Jews to be circumcised to be included into the church...the law says do not kill, do not steal, do not covet ...you make it look as if one teaches do not kill. do not steal or covet has gone back to the law...that is not what Paul is teaching...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is wrong with you. Really.

So you come up with all these scenarios like mouse traps, your something else, just trying to trip me up so hard....

You all brought this fulfill the Law thing up, Paul says when the Messiah is in one then they are fulfilling the Law, and what that really means, is they are walking in it.

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

I AM NOT THE JUDGE

I CAN NOT SAY THIS OR THAT IT IS FOR YAH.

And according to what I would do or think I would do in His presence, I do not feel comfortable saying this here, first if I was honest I would come off as wrong in some way because I was "acting" too respectful, or just "saying this or that", so I would rather take any criticism for not answering. But I will say this to hopefully alleviate anyone drawing their own conclusion, Yah is more important to me than anything I have ever known.

then there is no helping you.

1. You do not admit you are still under a curse, when you place yourself under law.
2. You do not admit your security is in Christ, because you think no one can know they have eternal life (yet Jesus, Paul and John all three said WE CAN KNOW)

I am not trying to judge the law. or judge those who want to obey the law.

I am trying to show those who claim we can not know we have security in Christ, and thus should follow the law or be left out, they they have not left the law. for they are still trying to be saved by it.

as for me, I know what I will do.

I will be like Daniel. Like the apostle John, And like any other person who has stood in front of God, no matter how righteous they were, (your surely not going to deny these were righteous and just men now are you?)
I will be on my knees, Face to the ground covering my shame, And praying God keeps his word and shows his mercy, for that is what my Hope is in.

"in the hope of eternal life, who God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

If I have no hope in this, I have no hope at all. All the law obeying, righteous living I have spend my christian life trying my best to do. mean nothing, if I do not have eternal life.