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I wonder what Lawful means? Is that lawyer talk?
Matt 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."
The pharisees made the Sabbath a day to sit and stat at a wall, Yahweh made it a day for do His will.
Isayah 58:13-14, "If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of Yahweh honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in aidle conversation: Then you will find your joy in Yahweh; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father--for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it."
Matt 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."
The pharisees made the Sabbath a day to sit and stat at a wall, Yahweh made it a day for do His will.
Isayah 58:13-14, "If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of Yahweh honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in aidle conversation: Then you will find your joy in Yahweh; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father--for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken it."
I dont think He got the "Sabbath change" memo;
Post-Sacrifice, per-ENDTIME PROPHECYl
Matt 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day."
Ohh wait there is talk of a change;
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Even thought it was prophesied that the most evil would change Yahweh's Law, and Messiah says it will never change; (Matt 5:18 & Luke 16:17 ) the new teaching is that it changed and it's oh so good. So explain Daniyl 7:25 to me then...
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Post-Sacrifice, per-ENDTIME PROPHECYl
Matt 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day."
Ohh wait there is talk of a change;
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Even thought it was prophesied that the most evil would change Yahweh's Law, and Messiah says it will never change; (Matt 5:18 & Luke 16:17 ) the new teaching is that it changed and it's oh so good. So explain Daniyl 7:25 to me then...
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
What does the law say concerning the two questions I asked?
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Questions for law keepers....
1. Was it against the law to work on the Sabbath?
Yet Jesus and his disciples picked corn.
2. Was it unlawful to use the shew bread for anything other than it's given usage under the law?
Yet David and his companions ate it.....
So, what was the punishment for breaking these laws and why were they both overlooked and no punishment?
1. Was it against the law to work on the Sabbath?
Yet Jesus and his disciples picked corn.
2. Was it unlawful to use the shew bread for anything other than it's given usage under the law?
Yet David and his companions ate it.....
So, what was the punishment for breaking these laws and why were they both overlooked and no punishment?
K
1) In the OT it was and the punishment was death, but in the NT the Lord Jesus changed that and took away the punishment of the law for doing so.
And in Hebrews it tells us that our Sabbath rest is in Him now, but you can only enter in through obedience.
2) Once again another mosaic written ordinance that was covered by God's mercy, as Jesus says that if you knew what the whole of the law was for. " You would have known that I required mercy, not sacrifice. "
Same with adultery under the new testament, the old testament punishment was death. Under the new testament Jesus says not to issue out the punishments for we are all guilty in God's eyes. That is the purpose of he who is without sin, cast the first stone. None of us are worthy to cast stones or punishments toward others for their sins, for we are equally guilty as should accept the same treatment for ourselves.
Judge not for if you do judge, the manner in which you use, you also will be judged in same manner.
Peter was unlearned from a WORLDLY perspective, but learned in the ways of Messiah, after all he was a disciple....
1 Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in Yahweh, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in Yahweh."
1 Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in Yahweh, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in Yahweh."
What does the law say concerning the two questions I asked?
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Questions for law keepers....
1. Was it against the law to work on the Sabbath?
Yet Jesus and his disciples picked corn.
2. Was it unlawful to use the shew bread for anything other than it's given usage under the law?
Yet David and his companions ate it.....
So, what was the punishment for breaking these laws and why were they both overlooked and no punishment?
1. Was it against the law to work on the Sabbath?
Yet Jesus and his disciples picked corn.
2. Was it unlawful to use the shew bread for anything other than it's given usage under the law?
Yet David and his companions ate it.....
So, what was the punishment for breaking these laws and why were they both overlooked and no punishment?
That does not invalidate;
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
K
Peter was personally taught by Jesus the gospel message, so he may have been a unlearned fisherman when Jesus came to him. But Jesus made him a learned fisherman of men, and Peter wrote the epistle because there was people who were having a hard time understanding what Paul was saying. Peter was not saying he personally had a hard time understanding Paul. The council of Nicaea chose to use most of Paul's books for the NT because he was the main one commissioned by the Lord to carry the gospel to the gentiles.
Paul did not teach or preach another gospel message, add things on to it, or take things away. He said clearly that he could not, and if he, another apostle, or even an angel saying they are from God come with a different message than what Jesus already gave it is not from God.
OK, DC, we have talked for a while, I understand when people call me a "lawyer" or "legalistic" but when did I ever say one could have salvation without the great mercy of Messiah?
I try to use Scripture when I talk. When did I ever say, "earned and deserved?" never did.
I say we have been given great mercy we should be grateful and obey.
Worldly example not real, example;
Wife catched husband cheating, says, look I love you but you cant do that. Stop it and we can still be together.
Husband thinks in his mind A or B?;
A. I should have never cheated, I cant believe she forgave me, Im never going to cheat on her again!
B. Dang she caught me cheating and forgave me... I can get away with anything I want!
Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh. For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”
I try to use Scripture when I talk. When did I ever say, "earned and deserved?" never did.
I say we have been given great mercy we should be grateful and obey.
Worldly example not real, example;
Wife catched husband cheating, says, look I love you but you cant do that. Stop it and we can still be together.
Husband thinks in his mind A or B?;
A. I should have never cheated, I cant believe she forgave me, Im never going to cheat on her again!
B. Dang she caught me cheating and forgave me... I can get away with anything I want!
Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh. For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”
K
The reason the mosaic law was given with the punishments was because of the transgressions (Galatians 3:19) that were already apart of the world, to show and lead people away from those transgressions. But because the law was not perfect, and could not give forgiveness and stop people from transgressing (Hebrews 8:7). A new covenant was made with different standards to follow by, walking in love. By that love you will do and fulfill the rest of God's moral laws (Matthew 22:37-40). But as the bible has said the mosaic written ordinances have been blotted out, and done away with (Colossains 2:14, Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:25, Romans 15)
11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
…15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
…15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
I agree with what you say here.
But we HAVE to look to the Messiah as Savior and RULER.
All I can do is speak on myself, I believe if I don;t make Him my Ruler as He has made Himself my Savior, I will be in trouble.
If one truly studies what the Messiah said, I thank many would have a different doctrine than what is commonly accepted, JMO.
Among many other things Messiah said this,
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Its in Scripture... It all there
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
Ignore? Not me.
But we HAVE to look to the Messiah as Savior and RULER.
All I can do is speak on myself, I believe if I don;t make Him my Ruler as He has made Himself my Savior, I will be in trouble.
If one truly studies what the Messiah said, I thank many would have a different doctrine than what is commonly accepted, JMO.
Among many other things Messiah said this,
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Its in Scripture... It all there
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
Ignore? Not me.
if the president pardons a man who murdered(broke the law).....and the man after being pardoned does not murder anymore (break the law)...is he now earning his pardon by not murdering anymore (breaking the law)?
In the same way we were born again into the kingdom of Christ and given a new sin free start....created a new creature unto good works...that is doing what we ought to do... our reasonable sacrifice...it is not earning or acquiring anything....
In the same way we were born again into the kingdom of Christ and given a new sin free start....created a new creature unto good works...that is doing what we ought to do... our reasonable sacrifice...it is not earning or acquiring anything....
I don't know what the debate is about personally. I mean we need both. If we did not have the law which shows us what sin is then we would not need grace. No law no sin no need of grace. But because we have the law which shows us what sin is and how far we have fallen from God's expectations then we by all means need grace. Jesus died to pay the price of the broken law for us.
So again I ask Why the debate?
So again I ask Why the debate?
M
I hope to explain this...to say the law is broken into parts such as "moral" and "ceremonial" is an absolute error and misses the clear and evident reading of the scriptures.. Now to say the moral element that is represented in faith and love is always upheld and promoted throughout all scripture is an absolute truth.... One could say that the more "ceremonial" aspects of the law are seen in faith and the more "moral" aspects are seen in love.... I understand that idea and I could agree with that and why folks are seeing that upheld but to say the law is in parts is a horrible error.