THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Mitspa]

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; nd He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Just because we have mercy does not mean we throw all Instructions in the Law of Yahweh in the trash.

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Jude (Yahdah) 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandments, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[Kerry]

Law and grace. Two men. One spent his life studying Hebrew and was eloquent and helped the poor and needed funds to the orphans. He was loved by the community and even cut the grass at the pop warner football field. He opened his doors to the homeless and was a respectable man. Even receiving the citizenship award from the Mayor and the key to the city.

Second man, he was a drunk and vile, he reeked havoc in the city. He even sold his dead 6 year old girls shoes to buy liquor. He would fight at the drop of a hat and even committed murder. He beat his wife and abused his children. Then one day, He accepted Christ one day before he died.

Which one went to heaven?

 

[Mitspa]

Law and grace. Two men. One spent his life studying Hebrew and was eloquent and helped the poor and needed funds to the orphans. He was loved by the community and even cut the grass at the pop warner football field. He opened his doors to the homeless and was a respectable man. Even receiving the citizenship award from the Mayor and the key to the city.

Second man, he was a drunk and vile, he reeked havoc in the city. He even sold his dead 6 year old girls shoes to buy liquor. He would fight at the drop of a hat and even committed murder. He beat his wife and abused his children. Then one day, He accepted Christ one day before he died.

Which one went to heaven?

Well its easier for the harlot to enter the Kingdom than the self-righteous...and if that man had really believed the Law of Moses he would have known he was a sinner also...If no one preached the gospel to him...he didn't have as many friends as it would seem.

But of course its the one who receives Christ and His grace that is saved.... God says that is righteous

 

[Kerry]

Well its easier for the harlot to enter the Kingdom than the self-righteous...and if that man had really believed the Law of Moses he would have known he was a sinner also...If no one preached the gospel to him...he didn't have as many friends as it would seem.

But of course its the one who receives Christ and His grace that is saved.... God says that is righteous

So we should be harlots until we know we are dying?

 

[Reborn]

Law and grace. Two men. One spent his life studying Hebrew and was eloquent and helped the poor and needed funds to the orphans. He was loved by the community and even cut the grass at the pop warner football field. He opened his doors to the homeless and was a respectable man. Even receiving the citizenship award from the Mayor and the key to the city.

Second man, he was a drunk and vile, he reeked havoc in the city. He even sold his dead 6 year old girls shoes to buy liquor. He would fight at the drop of a hat and even committed murder. He beat his wife and abused his children. Then one day, He accepted Christ one day before he died.

Which one went to heaven?

Probably Neither.
First man, you stated was a "good" man, not saved...there is no one "good" in God's eyes.
Second man, you said lived a LIFE full of sin, last minute ditch effort probably doesn't work either?
The examples were too vague.

 

[Mitspa]

How about cain and Able? they both attempted to worship God...But Cain offered from the ground that God had cursed and from his own labors...His works where wicked Able offered the sacrifice of the Lamb that represents Christ...His works where righteous.... Maybe God sees more of a persons heart than we do...maybe there is something about a heart of faith in Christ that is more honorable than those who fail to see the need.

 

[Mitspa]

So we should be harlots until we know we are dying?

You have a problem with the scripture? Or that we are all wretched and none are good?

 

[Kerry]

Probably Neither.
First man, you stated was a "good" man, not saved...there is no one "good" in God's eyes.
Second man, you said lived a LIFE full of sin, last minute ditch effort probably doesn't work either?
The examples were too vague.

Read John 3:16 again. The second man did not know that his life would end the next day, but on that day he accepted Christ and therefore is saved and in Heaven. Man always adds to it well you accepted Christ but, you must do this and that. Which is not biblical.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Law and grace. Two men. One spent his life studying Hebrew and was eloquent and helped the poor and needed funds to the orphans. He was loved by the community and even cut the grass at the pop warner football field. He opened his doors to the homeless and was a respectable man. Even receiving the citizenship award from the Mayor and the key to the city.

Second man, he was a drunk and vile, he reeked havoc in the city. He even sold his dead 6 year old girls shoes to buy liquor. He would fight at the drop of a hat and even committed murder. He beat his wife and abused his children. Then one day, He accepted Christ one day before he died.

Which one went to heaven?

Real cute Kerry, but which one accepted the Holy Spirit and lived by it... Riddle me that

 

[Brainfreeze]

Read John 3:16 again. The second man did not know that his life would end the next day, but on that day he accepted Christ and therefore is saved and in Heaven. Man always adds to it well you accepted Christ but, you must do this and that. Which is not biblical.

You need to read back over this thread, you don't know what's biblical by the way your talking..

 

[Kerry]

You need to read back over this thread, you don't know what's biblical by the way your talking..

How can John 3:16 not be biblical?

 

[Brainfreeze]

How can John 3:16 not be biblical?

He did... That you may LIVE in the Spirit... Not your carnal flesh

 

[Reborn]

Read John 3:16 again.
..........Which is not biblical.

Yes, I believe you are right on that part. 100 %, Men add and take away from scripture and teach commandments of men.
The example---albeit a great example of Christ's grace--- has always been too extreme to me.
I've heard the "a day before the person died they accepted Christ right before they flatlined" story many times.
I'm not here to say if or if it isn't possible. We both know that with God all things are possible?

It's just when we /people debate laws, traditions, commandments, works, correct interpretations, beliefs, proper study habits, old or new, how we walk, who we listen to, can we preach, do we preach, should we preach, what we have to do or don't have to do....we tend to always leave out and the bottom line is that God searches the heart and minds of people...period.

( Can we know?....one saying they accepted Christ or has TRULY accepted Christ is a whole different debate.)

 

[newbirth]

I think most of this can be boiled down very simply.
Can a person be saved by the simple Gospel without any knowledge of the 10 Commandments, and live righteously without any knowledge of the Law? Yes.

you are saying one can be saved in ignorance.... in the broad road
Romans 2:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Acts 17:29-31King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Can a person become distracted from obeying the Spirit because they are focusing on trying to obtain the perfection of the Letter of the Law? Yes.

it is the person responsibility to follow the spirit
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is the Law in agreement with the Spirit? Yes.
Do we understand the Law without the Spirit? No.
Can a person think they understand the Law without having the Spirit? Yes, as the unbelieving Jews have shown.

again it is the person's responsibility to follow the spirit
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The Spirit produces lawFULLNESS in Believers. The Law brings conviction and condemnation upon the unbeliever, and instruction to the Believer. Believers are no longer under it's condemnation, but are still under it's instruction (through the guidance of the Spirit, and not by man's understanding of the Law).

where does scripture say the Spirit produces lawfulness in the believer?...believers are to follow the Spirit...Jesus said..... John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Can a Believer claim to have the Spirit, yet not bear the fruit of the Spirit? If we have the fruit of the Spirit, by living in love, joy, peace, patience, etc... then we will fulfill the Law, even if we have no knowledge of it.

This is truth...
Galatians 5:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Brainfreeze]

( Can we know?....one saying they accepted Christ or has TRULY accepted Christ is a whole different debate.)

Pretty wild statement from a guy named " reborn ", If your dead... and have been reborn in the SPIRIT, my statements would make sense, what I'm saying has nothing to do with philosophy of men or laws, this is exactly what the Word of YAH teaches..

 

[Reborn]

Pretty wild statement from a guy named " reborn ", If your dead... and have been reborn in the SPIRIT, my statements would make sense, what I'm saying has nothing to do with philosophy of men or laws, this is exactly what the Word of YAH teaches..

Hmmmm.....A dude named BrainFreeze?.....I don't read your stuff, sorry.
I know you debate to debate ,I was replying to Kerry's story...so please read what I write before claiming I attack. You will know when I do this brother.
Simply, I think the God of Heaven is truth, and how well we serve Him is not determined by how cleverly we can defend our traditions, but on how willing we are to seek out and follow the truth.
Claim otherwise....and you seek to just be heard.

 

[Kerry]

Yes, I believe you are right on that part. 100 %, Men add and take away from scripture and teach commandments of men.
The example---albeit a great example of Christ's grace--- has always been too extreme to me.
I've heard the "a day before the person died they accepted Christ right before they flatlined" story many times.
I'm not here to say if or if it isn't possible. We both know that with God all things are possible?

It's just when we /people debate laws, traditions, commandments, works, correct interpretations, beliefs, proper study habits, old or new, how we walk, who we listen to, can we preach, do we preach, should we preach, what we have to do or don't have to do....we tend to always leave out and the bottom line is that God searches the heart and minds of people...period.

( Can we know?....one saying they accepted Christ or has TRULY accepted Christ is a whole different debate.)

"Lord when you come into your Kingdom remember me" Christ replied " today you will with Me in Paradise". They guy was a thief.

 

[newbirth]

Law and grace. Two men. One spent his life studying Hebrew and was eloquent and helped the poor and needed funds to the orphans. He was loved by the community and even cut the grass at the pop warner football field. He opened his doors to the homeless and was a respectable man. Even receiving the citizenship award from the Mayor and the key to the city.

Second man, he was a drunk and vile, he reeked havoc in the city. He even sold his dead 6 year old girls shoes to buy liquor. He would fight at the drop of a hat and even committed murder. He beat his wife and abused his children. Then one day, He accepted Christ one day before he died.

Which one went to heaven?

first you have to explain what you mean by accepted Christ.....do you mean say a sinners prayer or repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and receive the HS...

 

[Reborn]

"Lord when you come into your Kingdom remember me" Christ replied " today you will with Me in Paradise". They guy was a thief.

I get that...like I said because Christ/God KNEW and read his thoughts and heart. He knew he was sincere. Not because it's a story/example of a last ditch effort.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Hmmmm.....A dude named BrainFreeze?.....I don't read your stuff, sorry.
I know you debate to debate ,I was replying to Kerry's story...so please read what I write before claiming I attack. You will know when I do this brother.
Simply, I think the God of Heaven is truth, and how well we serve Him is not determined by how cleverly we can defend our traditions, but on how willing we are to seek out and follow the truth.
Claim otherwise....and you seek to just be heard.

You don't know me from Adam brother, and if your going to jump into conversations, I would hope you don't arrogantly just post without reading what's being discussed.. not turning the conversation to mush.. Now I'm attacking you ? Your name is reborn, but your saying to be reborn in the Spirit is a tradition of men ? Correct me if I'm wrong.. and by the way this whole paragraph is you attacking and whining, he just wants to be herd, how clever, I don't read your stuff, ...I don't think this holds any fruit, do you ?