THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[AtonedFor]

I don't remember posting on that thread?

On a different thread, I mentioned 10 such verses ... and you asked to see them!
Anywho, what's the difference? ... Dost thou believe them or not?

 

[Mitspa]

I do understand the Spirit of Yahweh guides, prods, corrects, and teaches, etc but

Is it ok for me to read the words of Messiah and with prayer set my mind to do them or is that evil?

Must I learn about Messiah and Yahweh's Instruction ONLY sitting in a meditative position with a blank mind? Or is it ok to read Scripture as a life guide?

Sure and if your sincere and ask Him to teach you about His liberty and Grace ...he will always help you...but He will not uphold anyone in the pride of self-righteousness.

 

[Hizikyah]

Well im the one who is teaching others how to keep the law according to the gospel, it those who are teaching the written code that are lawless and only keep the law with their hypocrisy and false words.

So no talk of you FALSELY saying, "and go about trying to be teachers of the law" when the verse says, ""take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

We are just going to ignore that falsehood?

and continue as if it was correct to propose that I am wrong?

 

[Mitspa]

On a different thread, I mentioned 10 such verses ... and you asked to see them!
Anywho, what's the difference? ... Dost thou believe them or not?

Oh I remember now... you can discuss them here...because I am confident that in the true grace of God...no one can be taken from the Fathers Hand.

 

[psychomom]

Only those who keep the law of the Spirit keep the law of God...those who are under the written code are lawless...for they claim to keep the law...but they do not.

a-a-and, that's the problem.
we have to cheapen the demands of the Law in order to think we're pulling it off.

when i read God's Law...it crushes me. because i KNOW i'm not doing it, to the degree God requires.
causes me to run to the Lord Jesus for grace, and more grace.

if not for the Perfect Righteousness of Jesus...i would not stand at all. ♥

 

[Hizikyah]

Sure and if your sincere and ask Him to teach you about His liberty and Grace ...he will always help you...but He will not uphold anyone in the pride of self-righteousness.

So are you saying it is ok to read the Law of Yahweh as long as it is within His guidance?

Or am I misunderstanding/misrepresenting what you say?

I want to be clear.

 

[Mitspa]

So no talk of you FALSELY saying, "and go about trying to be teachers of the law" when the verse says, ""take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

We are just going to ignore that falsehood?

and continue as if it was correct to propose that I am wrong?

My friend...Im trying to help you see the grace of God and keep Gods Laws according to the gospel of Jesus Christ...

 

[Hizikyah]

a-a-and, that's the problem.
we have to cheapen the demands of the Law in order to think we're pulling it off.

when i read God's Law...it crushes me. because i KNOW i'm not doing it, to the degree God requires.
causes me to run to the Lord Jesus for grace, and more grace.

if not for the Perfect Righteousness of Jesus...i would not stand at all. ♥

So do we by this great witness against us, and great mercy for us take any path we deem fit or do we turn to Yah and His guidance. (not implying anything stating for exploration)

Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

 

[Hizikyah]

My friend...Im trying to help you see the grace of God and keep Gods Laws according to the gospel of Jesus Christ...

By misrepresenting Scripture and then continuing on that tangent?

How could I take you serious when you blatantly say next verse says this, when it says the opposite and then don't even acknowledge that falsehood. I'm supposed to believe you have my best interest at hand?

 

[Mitspa]

So are you saying it is ok to read the Law of Yahweh as long as it is within His guidance?

Or am I misunderstanding/misrepresenting what you say?

I want to be clear.

Sure...we need to see the truth of the flesh and how the law represented the Spirit in us...and the great judgment of the law that we have been delivered from...we need to see a lot of things about Christ from the OT law...its the greatest witness to the grace of God when put in context of the work of Christ on the Cross...but if you think by looking to a set of rules you will please God? your failing to see the beauty of Christ.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

His teachings:

John 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

[Mitspa]

By misrepresenting Scripture and then continuing on that tangent?

How could I take you serious when you blatantly say next verse says this, when it says the opposite and then don't even acknowledge that falsehood. I'm supposed to believe you have my best interest at hand?

Now your getting personal...don't do that Hiz...lets try to keep it civil...

 

[psychomom]

So do we by this great witness against us, and great mercy for us take any path we deem fit or do we turn to Yah and His guidance. (not implying anything stating for exploration)

i'm in a silly mood tonight, so i'd like to answer, duh!

natch, we always, always turn to God for guidance, and for grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

His teachings:

John 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Right again...im the one teaching how to keep what God commanded..those who teach the law are only teaching others how to break Gods laws.

 

[Hizikyah]

Right again...im the one teaching how to keep what God commanded..those who teach the law are only teaching others how to break Gods laws.

What verse is that from?

2 Opinions 4:1?

Here is what the Savior says:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

 

[Mitspa]

What verse is that from?

2 Opinions 4:1?

Here is what the Savior says:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

They are only fulfilled in the love that comes from the Spirit of God.... "the law is spiritual" it cannot be kept by the will of man through the written code of Moses.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Hizikyah]

Now your getting personal...don't do that Hiz...lets try to keep it civil...

Keep it civil

What did I do?

Are you trying to make me guilty by using pavlovian methods of correlating negative traits?

And why will you not address that question but keep distracting from it?

2 Peter 3:17?

 

[Hizikyah]

They are only fulfilled in the love that comes from the Spirit of God.... "the law is spiritual" it cannot be kept by the will of man through the written code of Moses.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I think you shoud study konie greeek

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result (telos) of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

Notice it is used 42 times? Let's look at a few of those times...

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Would you misapply that here and say that is the end of everlasting life? No more everlasting life, it is ended?

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

The word for custom here is G5056; telos.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

So now if we end the Commandment (notice it is singular?) then the result is love (charity) out of a pure heart? Lawlessness produces love?

Now this one is a real problem for you misapplication of the word telos...

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Oh no, the end of Christ?

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end of faith?

The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law.

 

[Hizikyah]

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

 

[gb9]

Take the Sabbath...by the "letter" its a 24 hour day on Sat...now in the Spirit we cease from our own works and "rest" in the love of God... Thou shalt not covet ...is only fulfilled when we love others as ourselves and rejoice that others have..even if we don't have as much... Thou shalt not steal...is only fulfilled when we love the thief and give to others... What im teaching is the divine nature of God...but one cannot get there unless they die to self-righteousness and to the law.

you see, when you tell truth like this it just ticks the legalists off. this is great truth, the way it SHOULD be understood.