Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works
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amen!!
For I am the LORD, I change not
(Malachi 3:6)
Keep my statutes and do them;
I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
(Leviticus 20:8)
And by that will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Hebrews 10:10)
It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed,
because his compassions fail not.
(Lamentations 3:22)
Jesus answered him,
“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,
and my Father will love him,
and we will come to him and make our home with him."
(John 14:23)
For I am the LORD, I change not
(Malachi 3:6)
Keep my statutes and do them;
I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
(Leviticus 20:8)
And by that will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Hebrews 10:10)
It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed,
because his compassions fail not.
(Lamentations 3:22)
Jesus answered him,
“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,
and my Father will love him,
and we will come to him and make our home with him."
(John 14:23)
B
Concerning our right standing with God we are justified by faith without works. However, as far as our walk with God is concerned, after we have been justified by faith, we have been ordained unto good works and we are to provoke and encourage one another unto love and those good works. Those good works will show of the faith that we have been justified. That is the evidence of our faith that is revealed by the works that we take on through the grace and love of God through the Spirit. However, faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not yet seen, for those things that we do no see are eternal and that which we do, that are seen by man are temporal. The works that we do as believers will end for us through death or being raptured. Our works will follow us and will be tried by fire.
We are to walk by faith trusting in the promises of God whether we receive those promises in this life or the next life to come. We are also to maintain good works that we might be fruitful, good and profitable unto all men. If we fail to maintain good works we will be judged at the bema seat of Christ as to whether we will be rewarded or suffer loss for the things we have done in our body. The works we have done in our body being tried by fire will reveal the source of those works but will have nothing to do with our standing and justification we have in Christ by faith when we trusted in the work of Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins, even though we shall be saved by fire. Christ will be our portion for eternity even if we suffer loss by not maintaining good (agathos) works through the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. Even if a believer falls he shall not utterly be cast down for God is able to make him stand and put on immortality and incorruption and death shall be swallowed up in victory.
We are to walk by faith trusting in the promises of God whether we receive those promises in this life or the next life to come. We are also to maintain good works that we might be fruitful, good and profitable unto all men. If we fail to maintain good works we will be judged at the bema seat of Christ as to whether we will be rewarded or suffer loss for the things we have done in our body. The works we have done in our body being tried by fire will reveal the source of those works but will have nothing to do with our standing and justification we have in Christ by faith when we trusted in the work of Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of sins, even though we shall be saved by fire. Christ will be our portion for eternity even if we suffer loss by not maintaining good (agathos) works through the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. Even if a believer falls he shall not utterly be cast down for God is able to make him stand and put on immortality and incorruption and death shall be swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
you start out wrong ...do I need to continue?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
you start out wrong ...do I need to continue?
Right and the tree is either good because of faith or bad because of a lack of faith.
Do we produce good fruit BY faith or without faith?
BY/OUT OF FAITH a believer gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Without faith, the unbeliever simply says, "depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but does not give them the things which are needed for the body.
There it is. A person with dead faith does not produce good works and a person with living faith produces good works. You say that faith produces nothing, yet you also say those who do the works of God are working in faith. If faith produces nothing, then how can someone produce good works by/in/out of faith?
Hebrews 11:4 - By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous.. Yet his faith produced nothing? He did it all on his own apart from faith? Hebrews 11:7 - By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Yet his faith produced nothing and he did it all on his own apart from faith?
If our faith is genuine, then it will be accompanied by good works. Faith and works are not one in essence, so genuine faith must be established in Christ first before the works. Good works flow from a living faith, not a dead faith.
It's talking about someone who claims to have faith yet there are no works that accompany faith to back up that claim (James 2:15-16), demonstrating that you have a dead faith. The example of a good work that James gives in verses 15-16 do not accompany faith "instantaneously" upon conversion but afterward. This does not mean that faith is dead until it accomplishes this good work, but when this opportunity comes, what will we demonstrate about our faith by either telling a brother or sister in need to depart in peace, be warmed and filled, (dead) or actually giving them the things which are needed for the body?
Had they given, they demonstrate that their faith is alive. A person with a dead faith produces nothing. Explain to me how doing good works is accomplished with a dead faith?
It's still produced OUT OF FAITH, so it's still good works being produced by the believer IN FAITH. Without faith, these good works would not be produced so how can you say that faith does not produce anything? You are making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.
Exactly! So what does that tell you about genuine faith and good works?
Luke 18:10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' (what was his faith in?) 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' (what was his faith in?) Did they both have the same faith? James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! Acts 16:31 - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Same exact content of what is believed? The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. See the difference? Not all belief/faith is the same.
Not at all. Works are not instantly built into faith upon conversion. They follow. Good works will accompany genuine faith, but not dead faith, so genuine faith is not without works (Matthew 13:23).
Through faith, not by works.
By becoming born again, not by works.
Do we produce good fruit BY faith or without faith?
BY/OUT OF FAITH a believer gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Without faith, the unbeliever simply says, "depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but does not give them the things which are needed for the body.
There it is. A person with dead faith does not produce good works and a person with living faith produces good works. You say that faith produces nothing, yet you also say those who do the works of God are working in faith. If faith produces nothing, then how can someone produce good works by/in/out of faith?
Hebrews 11:4 - By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous.. Yet his faith produced nothing? He did it all on his own apart from faith? Hebrews 11:7 - By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Yet his faith produced nothing and he did it all on his own apart from faith?
If our faith is genuine, then it will be accompanied by good works. Faith and works are not one in essence, so genuine faith must be established in Christ first before the works. Good works flow from a living faith, not a dead faith.
It's talking about someone who claims to have faith yet there are no works that accompany faith to back up that claim (James 2:15-16), demonstrating that you have a dead faith. The example of a good work that James gives in verses 15-16 do not accompany faith "instantaneously" upon conversion but afterward. This does not mean that faith is dead until it accomplishes this good work, but when this opportunity comes, what will we demonstrate about our faith by either telling a brother or sister in need to depart in peace, be warmed and filled, (dead) or actually giving them the things which are needed for the body?
Had they given, they demonstrate that their faith is alive. A person with a dead faith produces nothing. Explain to me how doing good works is accomplished with a dead faith?
It's still produced OUT OF FAITH, so it's still good works being produced by the believer IN FAITH. Without faith, these good works would not be produced so how can you say that faith does not produce anything? You are making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.
Exactly! So what does that tell you about genuine faith and good works?
Luke 18:10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' (what was his faith in?) 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' (what was his faith in?) Did they both have the same faith? James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! Acts 16:31 - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Same exact content of what is believed? The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. See the difference? Not all belief/faith is the same.
Not at all. Works are not instantly built into faith upon conversion. They follow. Good works will accompany genuine faith, but not dead faith, so genuine faith is not without works (Matthew 13:23).
Through faith, not by works.
By becoming born again, not by works.
B
We must reconcile what James testified to in (James 2) with what Paul declares in (Rom 3:23-28 & Rom 4:1-5). James is speaking to the believer's work and service of faith toward his brother and fellow man. Paul is speaking to God's work of righteousness through His Son by faith without works or deeds of the law on man's part.
Rom 3:23-4:5 is not dealing with the works of the believer as to his service toward his brother or fellow man. It is dealing with his relationship to God through justification by grace through the blood of Christ for the remission of sins. James does not deal with the remission of sins but he does deal with the service toward others. James 2 deals with how the believer directs his faith and serves others with that faith and not with the redemption of being declared righteous for the remission of sins. He mentions nothing about the the blood, propitiation or the remission of sins in relationship to works done by the believer. James 2:24 is the stumbling block for some because they relate it to justification (being declared righteous) before God when it is referring to being justified (declared righteous) before the eyes of men.
So, we are not only justified before God by faith through the work of God's Son, but we are also justified before men by our good works. So if a man says that he has faith, that faith can only become alive toward his fellow man through good works or else it is inoperative (dead) and stands alone doing nothing. Abraham's faith was tested by the offering up of his son Isaac and was made complete (matured). God took Abraham from being declared righteous by God when he believed to being declared righteous with the outworking of his faith at the offering of his only son. Even us, who have been declared righteous by faith in Christ are also now being declared righteous before God, the angels and before the eyes of men with whom we have been called to preach the gospel, faith in the cross of Christ for the remission of sins, and to maintain good works unto all men.
Rom 3:23-4:5 is not dealing with the works of the believer as to his service toward his brother or fellow man. It is dealing with his relationship to God through justification by grace through the blood of Christ for the remission of sins. James does not deal with the remission of sins but he does deal with the service toward others. James 2 deals with how the believer directs his faith and serves others with that faith and not with the redemption of being declared righteous for the remission of sins. He mentions nothing about the the blood, propitiation or the remission of sins in relationship to works done by the believer. James 2:24 is the stumbling block for some because they relate it to justification (being declared righteous) before God when it is referring to being justified (declared righteous) before the eyes of men.
So, we are not only justified before God by faith through the work of God's Son, but we are also justified before men by our good works. So if a man says that he has faith, that faith can only become alive toward his fellow man through good works or else it is inoperative (dead) and stands alone doing nothing. Abraham's faith was tested by the offering up of his son Isaac and was made complete (matured). God took Abraham from being declared righteous by God when he believed to being declared righteous with the outworking of his faith at the offering of his only son. Even us, who have been declared righteous by faith in Christ are also now being declared righteous before God, the angels and before the eyes of men with whom we have been called to preach the gospel, faith in the cross of Christ for the remission of sins, and to maintain good works unto all men.
C
As time went on with the early church 'fathers' [not a good name to call them or any alive now] we need to be careful who we quote of them.
Yes, we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH - how many times must I post those same words -- but the evidence of salvation is not someone just saying, "I saved by faith" and yet not be obedient to the God that they claim to "LOVE".
Over and over again, the verses and whole chapters have been posted on what THE REST of God's Word says in His New Covenant ... but ALL of those verses and chapters are being pushed under some rugs or God knows where and it's sheer insanity to not read and believe [same word for 'faith'] the WHOLE of His New Testament and say that we LOVE Him. [not yelling - just got to get off of here and hurrying for emphasis because this is Important].
Whenever we hear that word "Salvation" we Should get the picture in our minds of how HE LOOKED on that cross. The Cost!
Jesus said that we should also "count the cost". Once He forgives your sin / washes you clean as snow / Imparts His Own Spirit to reside IN YOU / says that His Spirit will lead you into all truth / says that we should 'walk in the spirit' and not in the flesh / that we are to HEAR, KNOW, and FOLLOW HIS VOICE / and that we should walk even as He did in "Obedience to His Commandments and the works that He did, we will do also" ETC ETC ETC ..... and that by walking as He did we will be declared His on that Day when He comes to judge the living and the dead.
"If you Love Me - Keep My Commandments" ..... and type commandments into your N.T. Search Engine and see what else He has to say about "His Commandments" .... and then what He said about "Keeping His Word" .... and see if it's not connected to having The Three in One "Indwell" us and if it is the evidence that we LOVE HIM and then see if we have to face Him with whether we did "Keep His Word and His Commandments" when He is literally looking us in the eye.
Ephesians 5 is speaking also of Christ and His Church / The Bride and the Bridegroom/Jesus and we're to "submit" and "submit" = "obedience".
If we see Him on that cross and have received the 'free' gift of salvation --- we'll love Him and READ EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD/HIM and "obey" because we "LOVE HIM" --- and if you Ever do a search of His Word / His New Covenant and look up these words .... you 'will' find out that without these words in ACTION [faith is a verb as weel] ....... you AIN'T GONNA MAKE IT.
Those are the ones that He says - "Depart from Me, I Never Knew you." -- You didn't Keep MY WORD.
That's why this is important --- because you that are banging the saved by faith with nothing showing for it --- like "walking as He walked", etc. are in danger and all that you teach this to are in danger and the more you teach it - the more danger that you're in.
We are not talking about a RCC works for salvation [though I haven't met a true catholic yet that thinks they'll avoid 'purgatory'] .... but we are required to know and obey just what the New Testament says, every word of it, from cover to cover.
That's all.
Yes, we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH - how many times must I post those same words -- but the evidence of salvation is not someone just saying, "I saved by faith" and yet not be obedient to the God that they claim to "LOVE".
Over and over again, the verses and whole chapters have been posted on what THE REST of God's Word says in His New Covenant ... but ALL of those verses and chapters are being pushed under some rugs or God knows where and it's sheer insanity to not read and believe [same word for 'faith'] the WHOLE of His New Testament and say that we LOVE Him. [not yelling - just got to get off of here and hurrying for emphasis because this is Important].
Whenever we hear that word "Salvation" we Should get the picture in our minds of how HE LOOKED on that cross. The Cost!
Jesus said that we should also "count the cost". Once He forgives your sin / washes you clean as snow / Imparts His Own Spirit to reside IN YOU / says that His Spirit will lead you into all truth / says that we should 'walk in the spirit' and not in the flesh / that we are to HEAR, KNOW, and FOLLOW HIS VOICE / and that we should walk even as He did in "Obedience to His Commandments and the works that He did, we will do also" ETC ETC ETC ..... and that by walking as He did we will be declared His on that Day when He comes to judge the living and the dead.
"If you Love Me - Keep My Commandments" ..... and type commandments into your N.T. Search Engine and see what else He has to say about "His Commandments" .... and then what He said about "Keeping His Word" .... and see if it's not connected to having The Three in One "Indwell" us and if it is the evidence that we LOVE HIM and then see if we have to face Him with whether we did "Keep His Word and His Commandments" when He is literally looking us in the eye.
Ephesians 5 is speaking also of Christ and His Church / The Bride and the Bridegroom/Jesus and we're to "submit" and "submit" = "obedience".
If we see Him on that cross and have received the 'free' gift of salvation --- we'll love Him and READ EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD/HIM and "obey" because we "LOVE HIM" --- and if you Ever do a search of His Word / His New Covenant and look up these words .... you 'will' find out that without these words in ACTION [faith is a verb as weel] ....... you AIN'T GONNA MAKE IT.
Those are the ones that He says - "Depart from Me, I Never Knew you." -- You didn't Keep MY WORD.
That's why this is important --- because you that are banging the saved by faith with nothing showing for it --- like "walking as He walked", etc. are in danger and all that you teach this to are in danger and the more you teach it - the more danger that you're in.
We are not talking about a RCC works for salvation [though I haven't met a true catholic yet that thinks they'll avoid 'purgatory'] .... but we are required to know and obey just what the New Testament says, every word of it, from cover to cover.
That's all.
Actually, the good tree brings forth good fruit BECAUSE it's a good tree, not to become a good tree...and the bad tree brings forth bad fruit BECAUSE it's a bad tree, not to become a bad tree. You still have it backwards.
Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. According to you, a bad tree bears good fruit in order to become a good tree but that is not what Jesus said.
Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. So please explain to me how a bad tree brings forth good fruit in order to become a good tree?
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. Please explain to me how an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth good in order to become a good man?
We still produce good fruit by faith not without faith.
James is not talking about a genuine believer but someone who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith (James 2:14). Dead faith is not genuine saving faith.
When I say faith produces I mean that we produce it by faith. I was not implying that faith does it for us and we remain passive.
It says BY FAITH Abel offered and Noah prepared an ark. Without faith neither act would have been accomplished.
So you don't believe that there is genuine faith and dead faith but ALL faith is the same regardless of what the content of faith is? Your assumption that James is talking about genuine faith in James 2:14 that is not accompanied by works and then becomes dead argument is bogus. It's been dead all along and that's why it is not accompanied by works. Some with a dead faith will not produce good works.
No, it doesn't become dead, it already is dead. If you refuse to do any works then you demonstrate that your faith is dead.
No works demonstrate a dead faith. Good works demonstrate genuine faith.
I understand the example of a good work that James gives in James 2:15-16 and I also understand this good work is not accomplished a split second after conversion and faith does not remain dead until it is accomplished either.
In Acts 2:36-37, their belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked "trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation." That is why they still needed to repent "change their minds and trust in Christ for salvation." Notice when the question, "what must I do to be saved" was asked in Acts 16:30, the answer was NOT accomplish a list of works and you will be saved. The answer was BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Yes, in or by faith. Faith is already established when accomplishing these works. Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean saved by works.
I never implied that faith produces automatically without us. That's not what I meant when I originally said faith produces. We produce the works but it's BY FAITH that we produce the works. I should have been more specific since you make everything so complicated.
We produce works BY FAITH. Faith does not produce works independent of us. Is that specific enough for you? My goodness!
You don't give a person the opportunity to produce good works but James does. You condemn a person at the moment of conversion just because a split second later they have not yet given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. James said faith without works is dead after the person has had the opportunity to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body, not a split second after conversion. If the tax collector had a dead faith and was still lost (Luke 18:10-13) then why did he go down to his house justified (Luke 18:14) but not the Pharisee? How many good works did the thief on the cross accomplish in those final moments before he died on the cross? He was saved through faith, not works. If he would have been taken off the cross and allowed to live, you would have seen him demonstrate his faith by good works, but he was still saved through faith apart from the good works that he would have accomplished if he was allowed to live.
I know.
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living WATER."
John 4:10 - but whoever drinks of the WATER that I shall give him will never thirst. But the WATER that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of WATER springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living WATER." 39 But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one SPIRT we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one SPIRIT.
We saw an example of that in Luke 18:10-13 with the Pharisee and the tax collector. Verse 14 - I tell you, this man (the tax collector) went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. The Pharisee obviously exalted himself by trusting in his works.
Amen! Trusting in your works for salvation is not humbling yourself.
The natural man hears babble (1 Corinthians 2:14). How long would it take a person who has been saved by grace through faith to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? That is just one example of a good work. For me, immediately upon conversion, I was praising Jesus with hands held high and thanking Him for saving me. Within minutes, I had shared the gospel with my wife and son and was on the phone calling my family members and sharing the gospel with them as well. The next morning, I was water baptized. Within days I was helping financially through my church to provide for those in need. Question for you: Did I praise Jesus and thank Him for saving me and share the gospel with my family and help financially through my church to provide for those in need with a dead faith or a living faith? Was I saved through faith in Christ and as a result these works followed or was I not saved through faith in Christ but by these works?
Works accompany genuine faith, not dead faith. Faith will not be without works unless it's a not dead (James 2:15-16). I will show you my faith by my works. Someone with a dead faith will not produce good works.
Someone with genuine faith will produce good works and someone with a dead faith will not (James 2:15-16). You still misinterpret James to mean that UNTIL a person gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body, their faith is dead and accomplishing good works causes faith to become alive. A person with dead faith does not accomplish good works. Faith must be alive in Christ FIRST then good works follow (Ephesians 2:5-10).
Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. According to you, a bad tree bears good fruit in order to become a good tree but that is not what Jesus said.
Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. So please explain to me how a bad tree brings forth good fruit in order to become a good tree?
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. Please explain to me how an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth good in order to become a good man?
We still produce good fruit by faith not without faith.
James is not talking about a genuine believer but someone who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith (James 2:14). Dead faith is not genuine saving faith.
When I say faith produces I mean that we produce it by faith. I was not implying that faith does it for us and we remain passive.
It says BY FAITH Abel offered and Noah prepared an ark. Without faith neither act would have been accomplished.
So you don't believe that there is genuine faith and dead faith but ALL faith is the same regardless of what the content of faith is? Your assumption that James is talking about genuine faith in James 2:14 that is not accompanied by works and then becomes dead argument is bogus. It's been dead all along and that's why it is not accompanied by works. Some with a dead faith will not produce good works.
No, it doesn't become dead, it already is dead. If you refuse to do any works then you demonstrate that your faith is dead.
No works demonstrate a dead faith. Good works demonstrate genuine faith.
I understand the example of a good work that James gives in James 2:15-16 and I also understand this good work is not accomplished a split second after conversion and faith does not remain dead until it is accomplished either.
In Acts 2:36-37, their belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked "trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation." That is why they still needed to repent "change their minds and trust in Christ for salvation." Notice when the question, "what must I do to be saved" was asked in Acts 16:30, the answer was NOT accomplish a list of works and you will be saved. The answer was BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Yes, in or by faith. Faith is already established when accomplishing these works. Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean saved by works.
I never implied that faith produces automatically without us. That's not what I meant when I originally said faith produces. We produce the works but it's BY FAITH that we produce the works. I should have been more specific since you make everything so complicated.
We produce works BY FAITH. Faith does not produce works independent of us. Is that specific enough for you? My goodness!
You don't give a person the opportunity to produce good works but James does. You condemn a person at the moment of conversion just because a split second later they have not yet given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. James said faith without works is dead after the person has had the opportunity to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body, not a split second after conversion. If the tax collector had a dead faith and was still lost (Luke 18:10-13) then why did he go down to his house justified (Luke 18:14) but not the Pharisee? How many good works did the thief on the cross accomplish in those final moments before he died on the cross? He was saved through faith, not works. If he would have been taken off the cross and allowed to live, you would have seen him demonstrate his faith by good works, but he was still saved through faith apart from the good works that he would have accomplished if he was allowed to live.
I know.
John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living WATER."
John 4:10 - but whoever drinks of the WATER that I shall give him will never thirst. But the WATER that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of WATER springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:37 - On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living WATER." 39 But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one SPIRT we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one SPIRIT.
We saw an example of that in Luke 18:10-13 with the Pharisee and the tax collector. Verse 14 - I tell you, this man (the tax collector) went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. The Pharisee obviously exalted himself by trusting in his works.
Amen! Trusting in your works for salvation is not humbling yourself.
The natural man hears babble (1 Corinthians 2:14). How long would it take a person who has been saved by grace through faith to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? That is just one example of a good work. For me, immediately upon conversion, I was praising Jesus with hands held high and thanking Him for saving me. Within minutes, I had shared the gospel with my wife and son and was on the phone calling my family members and sharing the gospel with them as well. The next morning, I was water baptized. Within days I was helping financially through my church to provide for those in need. Question for you: Did I praise Jesus and thank Him for saving me and share the gospel with my family and help financially through my church to provide for those in need with a dead faith or a living faith? Was I saved through faith in Christ and as a result these works followed or was I not saved through faith in Christ but by these works?
Works accompany genuine faith, not dead faith. Faith will not be without works unless it's a not dead (James 2:15-16). I will show you my faith by my works. Someone with a dead faith will not produce good works.
Someone with genuine faith will produce good works and someone with a dead faith will not (James 2:15-16). You still misinterpret James to mean that UNTIL a person gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body, their faith is dead and accomplishing good works causes faith to become alive. A person with dead faith does not accomplish good works. Faith must be alive in Christ FIRST then good works follow (Ephesians 2:5-10).
C
It would be good to look at it from the perspective of 'Love'. Jesus said and through John the beloved [who was given Mary to care for instead of James, Jesus' half-brother that wrote the book of James] and because John took in Mary as his own mother - we can only imagine how much she told John of Jesus' life story from the conception onto the day that she died.
John was called the 'disciple that Jesus loved' for a reason. Though Jesus said much good over Nathaniel when he first came to meet Jesus ... there was something about John's 'love' for Jesus and God before John met Jesus, being a follower of John the Baptist first - that distinguished him as the one that Jesus loved.
Did Jesus love John more than the rest -- I don't believe so, but because "God 'is' Love" - John was the one that came the closest to that love and being 'in' Love with God -- knowing The Love of God and sharing it with God -- he was the one most benefited by knowing and have a deeper understanding of that Love - as we see him on Jesus' chest at the last Passover supper and seeing how John quotes the most on 'Love' than almost any other facet of our Salvation.
Not only could someone come to understand the main requirement of salvation through do that Search on "commandments" but even the better - to do a N.T. Search on the first commandment word "love" and again you'd find the same proofs that The Word of God left us in order to Know that we are Saved.
"It's All About Love" - from Deut 6 and on -- we're shown and told that and should know that and focus on that in our 'word search' of our New Covenant/New Testaments.
The 5 wise Virgins Loved Him - as did the Sheep compared to the goats and that's just from one chpt of the New Testament.
John was called the 'disciple that Jesus loved' for a reason. Though Jesus said much good over Nathaniel when he first came to meet Jesus ... there was something about John's 'love' for Jesus and God before John met Jesus, being a follower of John the Baptist first - that distinguished him as the one that Jesus loved.
Did Jesus love John more than the rest -- I don't believe so, but because "God 'is' Love" - John was the one that came the closest to that love and being 'in' Love with God -- knowing The Love of God and sharing it with God -- he was the one most benefited by knowing and have a deeper understanding of that Love - as we see him on Jesus' chest at the last Passover supper and seeing how John quotes the most on 'Love' than almost any other facet of our Salvation.
Not only could someone come to understand the main requirement of salvation through do that Search on "commandments" but even the better - to do a N.T. Search on the first commandment word "love" and again you'd find the same proofs that The Word of God left us in order to Know that we are Saved.
"It's All About Love" - from Deut 6 and on -- we're shown and told that and should know that and focus on that in our 'word search' of our New Covenant/New Testaments.
The 5 wise Virgins Loved Him - as did the Sheep compared to the goats and that's just from one chpt of the New Testament.