Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works

[Jabberjaw]

A generous faith produces works, it is not a requirement. No such thing as faith alone.

So if there is no such thing as faith alone, then the faith alone group are teaching a man made false doctrine.

 

[Jackson123]

So if there is no such thing as faith alone, then the faith alone group are teaching a man made false doctrine.

yup.
John 15:5
New International Version
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


If a man claim to remain in Jesus but not bear the fruit he is a liar.
It is similar to what Apostle John said in

I john 4;20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

[mailmandan]

So genuine faith requires works, so faith alone will not save you.

Genuine faith produces good works. Dead faith produces no good works. It requires genuine faith in order to produce good works. When you say that genuine faith "requires" works, you make it sound like dead faith is producing these works in order to become genuine faith. That is putting the cart before the horse. What James means by faith "alone" is an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works), a dead faith (James 2:14-20) not genuine faith that cannot save you because it produces no works. This kind of faith cannot save you because it does not trust IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation and has not been made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8 - cause) and the lack of good works are the (effect).

 

[newbirth]

yup.
John 15:5
New International Version
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

If a man claim to remain in Jesus but not bear the fruit he is a liar.

you say he is a liar ...scripture says he takes takes them away....

It is similar to what Apostle John said in

I john 4;20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

You are correct no liar will inherit the kingdom of God... likewise those who bear no fruit....but God through his spirit has given us the ability to ..... love him,love our brothers and abstain from lies....that is bearing fruit...it is a choice we make...it is not forced upon us...that is why he said apart from me....YOU .......can do nothing

 

[newbirth]

Genuine faith produces good works. Dead faith produces no good works.

show your scripture or retract....faith without works is dead.....scripture says nothing about faith producing anything.....

It requires genuine faith in order to produce good works.

it requires work for faith not to be dead.....

When you say that genuine faith "requires" works, you make it sound like dead faith is producing these works in order to become genuine faith.

because you impute genuine in the scripture....it is faith that God gives....and faith requires works not to be dead...

That is putting the cart before the horse.

that is your problem....there is no before and after with faith and works...

What James means by faith "alone" is an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works), a dead faith

yes and he calls it faith without works is dead

(James 2:14-20) not genuine faith that cannot save you because it produces no works.

your genuine faith cannot save if it has no works.....you have to do the work in faith....faith does not produce works.....
putting the word genuine does not make faith different....faith comes by hearing the word of God....it is from God it is genuine....

 

[Sophia]

show your scripture or retract....faith without works is dead.....scripture says nothing about faith producing anything.....




it requires work for faith not to be dead.....



because you impute genuine in the scripture....it is faith that God gives....and faith requires works not to be dead...

that is your problem....there is no before and after with faith and works...




yes and he calls it faith without works is dead



your genuine faith cannot save if it has no works.....you have to do the work in faith....faith does not produce works.....
putting the word genuine does not make faith different....faith comes by hearing the word of God....it is from God it is genuine....

Sounds like you take all your theology from one verse in James. You're missing out on a lot of important meat. It is Faith that does the work. Without faith, there can be no righteous works, only filthy rags. It's not that your "all wrong" or anything, just that you have a very narrow focus, and it can bring you to a point of "I save myself" mentality.

 

[mailmandan]

it is still faith without works... [SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

That is not what James means by "without works." He is not saying upon the very moment of conversion you have not yet given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body (James 2:15-16) so until you do your faith is dead. Dead faith says to a brother or sister in need, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," yet does not give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Genuine faith gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Dead faith does not produce good works in order to become genuine faith, but BECAUSE it's genuine faith. Faith is genuine because it's alive in Christ/trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works (Ephesians 2:5-9 - cause) then unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:10 - effect). You have it backwards.

you are babbling...that is not scripture...not even close.......
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I'm not babbling at all. You just don't have ears to hear. James 2:14 - In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. How do get "actually has genuine faith" out of "says/claims" he has faith? This is a major stumbling block for you.

no we are saved by grace through faith ......and faith without works is dead

No, what you are erroneously saying is that we are saved through faith AND works and faith is dead until it produces works. Faith without works is dead, and it's not because we are saved by works or works are the source of life in faith, but because works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith. James 2:18 - I will SHOW you my faith by my works. We SHOW that our faith is genuine by our works. SHOW, not establish.

only fools accept a lie....the scripture says ...[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Then you are calling yourself a fool. Again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. You continue to misinterpret James 2:14 which causes you to stumble through the rest of the chapter.

......you say ..works is not to prove your faith ...works must be together with your faith....as one

We SHOW our faith by our works. We don't establish our faith by our works. We establish our faith by trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith is not works and works are not faith. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation. You still cannot make the distinction between the root of salvation (faith in Christ) and the fruit of salvation (good works).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you are the Greek scholar ....I could not find claim in the Greek

"Says He", "claim" same thing.

A person SAYS he has faith, yet he does not have ANY work whatsoever.

So much for your THEORY,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if there is no such thing as faith alone, then the faith alone group are teaching a man made false doctrine.

How can we be? There is no such thing as faith alone, You will not find a person in heaven who had genuine faith, yet had NO WORK.

You will also find no one in heaven you tried to get their by works, Because jesus will tell them to take their works, and depart from him, for HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

 

[mailmandan]

show your scripture or retract....faith without works is dead.....scripture says nothing about faith producing anything.....

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears/produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears/produces bad fruit. Do you understand what tree and fruit represent in this verse? Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Do you understand what good tree/bad tree and good fruit/bad fruit and a tree is known by it's fruit represent? Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Do you understand what good ground and BEARS/PRODUCES FRUIT represent? You need to read what James meant by "faith without works is dead" in context (James 2:14-20). You are forcing your own interpretation on this passage of scripture and are especially ignoring verses 14-16.

it requires work for faith not to be dead.....

You have it backwards. It requires faith in Christ for salvation in order for faith not to be dead (cause) then good works are the effect and SHOW that our faith is not dead. *Now please explain to me how a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith and also how a dead tree can produce fruit in order to become a living tree, which is saying the same thing.

because you impute genuine in the scripture....it is faith that God gives....and faith requires works not to be dead...

Whether you call it genuine faith or living faith it's the opposite of dead faith. One is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the other is dead (James 2:14-20). Works are required to SHOW that our faith is not dead (James 2:14-18). How can a dead faith produce works? What is the source of life in dead faith that produces these works? Life flows through the root (faith in Christ) and produces the works just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces the fruit and not the other way around.

that is your problem....there is no before and after with faith and works...

I have no problem with faith or works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith and works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Saved for good works, not by good works). Your problem is you have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

yes and he calls it faith without works is dead

Yes, without works/remains barren of works/given time to accomplish these works/tells a brother or sister in need "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," instead of giving them the things which are needed for the body, demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:15-16).

your genuine faith cannot save if it has no works...

My genuine faith has saved me because it trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is not barren of good works.

..you have to do the work in faith....faith does not produce works.....

Doing works in faith is faith producing works. Without faith, these good works would not be produced.

putting the word genuine does not make faith different....faith comes by hearing the word of God....it is from God it is genuine....

Not ALL faith is the same. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Many people have faith in themselves, faith in their church and faith in their works, but few have faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and are saved. The majority are lost (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus said in John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[newbirth]

Sounds like you take all your theology from one verse in James. You're missing out on a lot of important meat. It is Faith that does the work. Without faith, there can be no righteous works, only filthy rags. It's not that your "all wrong" or anything, just that you have a very narrow focus, and it can bring you to a point of "I save myself" mentality.

you claim ...It is Faith that does the work....all I am asking is to show me how faith does the work.....narrow is the way that leads to life....broad is the way that leads to destruction....you take the broad I will stay with the narrow...faith does not produce anything ...You have to do the work in faith...

Without faith, there can be no righteous works

which means faith must accompany works....simple....not before not after....not produce....

 

[newbirth]

How can we be? There is no such thing as faith alone, You will not find a person in heaven who had genuine faith, yet had NO WORK.

You will also find no one in heaven you tried to get their by works, Because jesus will tell them to take their works, and depart from him, for HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

we are not yet in heaven...James says faith alone is dead...you challenge James and call him a liar...I can't see how people can sit by and say nothing when you attack the scripture....I call you a LIAR... [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we are not yet in heaven...

Maybe you wont be in heaven, but I will be, God has saved me and given me eternal life, all the great riches in Christ Jesus, and his assurance that he will raise me on the last day. he promised he will complete that which he started in me, and he promised he has already perfected me until the day of Christ, he has attached me to the vine, where good works (fruit) will be produced. thus I am not worried about producing work, I know God will do it through me, I am worried about how much fruit, but not whether I will produce any or not.

and James says faith alone is dead...you challenge James and call him a liar...I can't see how people can sit by and say nothing when you attack the scripture....I call you a LIAR... [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No James said if a person SAYS he HAS FAITH, but does not have work, his faith is dead (non existent)

You keep taking the words "SAYS HE" out of the passage to support your gospel. sorry bro, the bible is to big to take one verse and make a gospel out of it.

next.

 

[oldthennew]

i love seekers and hearers, and sifters:
when we seek and hear and sift with a true, loving, heart,
we become stronger and our journey becomes more desirable
and creates what I call a Spiritual satisfaction that helps us get
through each day feeling a more sound and more meaningful Faith..

 

[notuptome]

Interesting to note that we are saved by grace. It is Gods grace that works through us not us working according to our own will. We are branches that bear fruit not producing but bearing that which God produces in us.

We are not to judge another but we are allowed to examine the fruit produced to see if it is of God. We are not able to judge another's salvation. We are completely incapable of making such a judgment. Works must flow out from one's salvation for they can never flow into one's salvation. One must also bear in mind that there are works or fruit that only God knows for not all is revealed to man.

I think it a wiser course of action to tend to one's own business than to meddle in the affairs of another unless the Lord makes it clear that one must intervene and illustrate an error according to the scriptures. Even here after the second or third admonition we are told leave it with the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears/produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears/produces bad fruit. Do you understand what tree and fruit represent in this verse? Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Do you understand what good tree/bad tree and good fruit/bad fruit and a tree is known by it's fruit represent? Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Do you understand what good ground and BEARS/PRODUCES FRUIT represent? You need to read what James meant by "faith without works is dead" in context (James 2:14-20). You are forcing your own interpretation on this passage of scripture and are especially ignoring verses 14-16.

the tree represents you ...you have to bear/produce..it does not say faith produce anything....did James say faith have to give food and clothes to the hungry and naked??/ or you have to give

You have it backwards. It requires faith in Christ for salvation in order for faith not to be dead (cause) then good works are the effect and SHOW that our faith is not dead. *Now please explain to me how a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith and also how a dead tree can produce fruit in order to become a living tree, which is saying the same thing.

faith produces nothing bro...God gives us faith by hearing...those who do not the works of God has a dead faith...those who do the works of God are working in faith

Whether you call it genuine faith or living faith it's the opposite of dead faith. One is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the other is dead (James 2:14-20). Works are required to SHOW that our faith is not dead (James 2:14-18). How can a dead faith produce works? What is the source of life in dead faith that produces these works? Life flows through the root (faith in Christ) and produces the works just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces the fruit and not the other way around.

the scripture does not say faith produce works....

I have no problem with faith or works.

as long as they are separate you have no problem...but scripture teaches they must be together..

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith and works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Saved for good works, not by good works). Your problem is you have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

faith without works is not not talking about faith before or after works....faith must accompany your works...

Yes, without works/remains barren of works/given time to accomplish these works/tells a brother or sister in need "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," instead of giving them the things which are needed for the body, demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:15-16).

then had they given ..their faith would be genuine and alive ,would it not?

My genuine faith has saved me because it trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is not barren of good works.

show me the work that accompanied your faith....your genuine faith has no work therefore it is dead...[SUP]
14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Doing works in faith is faith producing works. Without faith, these good works would not be produced.

doing works in faith is you doing works in faith...not faith producing anything...without faith one can still do works it just would not be Good works

Not ALL faith is the same. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Many people have faith in themselves, faith in their church and faith in their works, but few have faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and are saved. The majority are lost (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus said in John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

that phrase you coined is not in scripture....

faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and are saved

.......it is just your way for disguising faith without works...How do you enter into that door? how did Christ say one must enter into the kingdom of God?

 

[newbirth]

Maybe you wont be in heaven, but I will be, God has saved me and given me eternal life, all the great riches in Christ Jesus, and his assurance that he will raise me on the last day. he promised he will complete that which he started in me, and he promised he has already perfected me until the day of Christ, he has attached me to the vine, where good works (fruit) will be produced. thus I am not worried about producing work, I know God will do it through me, I am worried about how much fruit, but not whether I will produce any or not.

you are a liar...
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

No James said if a person SAYS he HAS FAITH, but does not have work, his faith is dead (non existent)

You keep taking the words "SAYS HE" out of the passage to support your gospel. sorry bro, the bible is to big to take one verse and make a gospel out of it.

next.

are you denying James said faith without works is dead?[SUP]

20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
if this one had no faith James could not say ...faith without works....
he is not now talking about one who say he has faith....he is saying faith without works is dead....you are saying there is no such thing....that makes you a liar...

 

[newbirth]

"Says He", "claim" same thing.

A person SAYS he has faith, yet he does not have ANY work whatsoever.

So much for your THEORY,

you are denying he has faith...God says he has....
Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[crossnote]

you are denying he has faith...God says he has....
Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

just curious, how do you explain away the fact that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law?
Please, try to refrain from name calling, e.g. liar, as it borders on bearing false witness.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Jabberjaw]

just curious, how do you explain away the fact that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law?
Please, try to refrain from name calling, e.g. liar, as it borders on bearing false witness.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

because the "deeds of law" Paul is referring to is the law of Moses, for one to be able to fallow the deeds of the Mosaic Law he would surly have something to "boast" about, since only our Savior could do it! (context context context, one more verse helps)

Romans 3:27-28 (NKJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Paul is not referring to the works of the Law of Christ as does James.