Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[Cycel]

ok, hopefully we're making progress on understanding each other...
does your brain operate deterministically? that is, if we knew the state of your brain at a point in the past, and all of the input(s) that had entered it since then, could we accurately predict your decision to get up and get the coke?

Not unless you could measure all the physiological determinants. Particularly the one affecting me now: thirst. The mere mention of a Coke makes me want to get up and open a one now. Or if I were to imagine you yawning -- oops... I just yawned. Hang on, I'm going to get that Coke.

Well, I got sidetracked. I saw my unmade bed and remembered my sheets are in the dryer. Good thing I checked because they were still damp. Anyways, long story short, I got a glass of cold water instead of the Coke.

My brain receives a lot of input. What I decide to do is very much dependent on outside factors and internal physiological cues. Things change, however, if I suffer a stroke or some other brain injury. My mother has Alzheimer's. Her short term memory is gone and her long term memories are fast disappearing. She still knows us, but is incapable of caring for herself. Thankfully she still remembers how to feed herself -- for now, but already her personality has changed. She is not the mother I remember from even a few short years ago. Once the disease has run its course she will be completely gone even though her physical self remains. Without our brain function we are nothing. One wonders how it is that believers think the personality and memories will return in death.

I don't know how the brain formulates my awareness of self and gives me emotions, but I know that it does for I have seen what happens when that function is stripped away. One day all will be made clear. One day science will possess the answers.

 

[Cycel]

The parable of the Ten Virgins describes ten with a measure of a moral and pure background who are all waiting for the bridgegroom to come (church members waiting for Christ to come). Five are ready and prepared. Five are actually not ready and not prepared. These last five are shut out and not able to enter the wedding with the bridegroom (These last five are shut out from heaven and from being in the presence of Christ).

I heard someone at church respond: "That is scary."

The difference between one group of five and the other group of five was whether they had oil (the Holy Spirit) or not.

It is scary as the delay in their arriving occurred because they ran out of lamp oil and the other five refused to share (not very Christian). Imagine if they had not arrived at the door in time because they went to help the needy and so were shut out of Heaven? Something similar happened to my friend when we were in kindergarten. We were only allowed to go outside to recess if we could tie our shoes within a set time. My friend Drake helped me because I was having trouble. I was allowed outside, but his time ran out and he had to remain inside during recess. We were both virgins at the time. One of us got to Heaven, but the other did not.

 

[phil112]

It is scary as the delay in their arriving occurred because they ran out of lamp oil and the other five refused to share (not very Christian). ..............

You must remember the circumstances we are talking about here. This isn't physical life, where it isn't all that unusual for a man to give his life for his fellow man, but eternity. If they had given their oil to help they wouldn't have enough. It would cost them their eternal life.

I will help you as much as humanly possible to get to heaven. Give my mortal life for you to that end. But don't dilly-dally around ignoring warnings and turning down help and then ask me to give up my reward at the last second. It can't happen, and if it could it wouldn't happen.

There comes a point in time when every man is held accountable for himself, and that is a stage for only one person at a time.

 

[nl]

It is scary as the delay in their arriving occurred because they ran out of lamp oil and the other five refused to share (not very Christian). Imagine if they had not arrived at the door in time because they went to help the needy and so were shut out of Heaven? Something similar happened to my friend when we were in kindergarten. We were only allowed to go outside to recess if we could tie our shoes within a set time. My friend Drake helped me because I was having trouble. I was allowed outside, but his time ran out and he had to remain inside during recess. We were both virgins at the time. One of us got to Heaven, but the other did not.

1) In the story or parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13, the five who were foolish and unprepared represent the hypocrites in the church. Visibly, they were church members engaged in a long wait for the appearance of the bridegroom (Jesus Christ) but they were not fully engaged in living out their profession with faith and hope and love. The foolish and unprepared had seemingly plenty of opportunity to prepare and to have something to give lovingly to others but instead they made demands upon others. They professed a hope for the arrival of the bridegroom but they did not live out a practice of being fully prepared for when he did arrive.

2) In the story or parable of Drake and Cycel preparing at kindergarten for recess, Drake represents Christ to me. Drake denied himself and gave the gift of tying your shoes for you. Drake lovingly laid down a part of himself for Cycel. Drake suffered and paid a price in the process. In a Christ-like way, Drake provided a gift that Cycel was unable to provide for himself so that Cycel might enjoy the gift of recess (heaven). .

 

[Cycel]

In the story or parable of Drake and Cycel preparing at kindergarten for recess, Drake represents Christ to me. Drake denied himself and gave the gift of tying your shoes for you. Drake lovingly laid down a part of himself for Cycel. Drake suffered and paid a price in the process. In a Christ-like way, Drake provided a gift that Cycel was unable to provide for himself so that Cycel might enjoy the gift of recess (heaven). .

Oh, I had a hearty laugh!

It is actually a true story, but it is interesting how we can weave other things into it. It is one of three memories I hold of kindergarten, though Drake plays a part in memories of later grades. He and I were buddies.

 

[Dan_473]

Not unless you could measure all the physiological determinants. Particularly the one affecting me now: thirst. The mere mention of a Coke makes me want to get up and open a one now. Or if I were to imagine you yawning -- oops... I just yawned. Hang on, I'm going to get that Coke.

Well, I got sidetracked. I saw my unmade bed and remembered my sheets are in the dryer. Good thing I checked because they were still damp. Anyways, long story short, I got a glass of cold water instead of the Coke.

My brain receives a lot of input. What I decide to do is very much dependent on outside factors and internal physiological cues. Things change, however, if I suffer a stroke or some other brain injury. My mother has Alzheimer's. Her short term memory is gone and her long term memories are fast disappearing. She still knows us, but is incapable of caring for herself. Thankfully she still remembers how to feed herself -- for now, but already her personality has changed. She is not the mother I remember from even a few short years ago. Once the disease has run its course she will be completely gone even though her physical self remains. Without our brain function we are nothing. One wonders how it is that believers think the personality and memories will return in death.

I don't know how the brain formulates my awareness of self and gives me emotions, but I know that it does for I have seen what happens when that function is stripped away. One day all will be made clear. One day science will possess the answers.

"Not unless you could measure all the physiological determinants."
right, but if we could, we could then predict what you would always 'choose' in every case. My computer can make that kind of 'choice', which, since it is completely determined by a previous state, isn't what most people mean by choice.



"My brain receives a lot of input."
Very much... that's why I added 'and all of the input(s) that had entered it since then'



"What I decide to do is very much dependent on outside factors and internal physiological cues."
Well, actually, totally dependent, it sounds like... again, not what people normally mean by choice...



"My mother has Alzheimer's."
I am sad to hear that. Her brain is still operating deterministically, though, it sounds like...



"I don't know how the brain formulates my awareness of self and gives me emotions, but I know that it does for I have seen what happens when that function is stripped away."
Awareness of self and emotions are related, but somewhat different... I don't doubt that you have self-awareness... that awareness would be the product of deterministic processes, though, wouldn't it? ...

 

[Cycel]

"What I decide to do is very much dependent on outside factors and internal physiological cues." (Cycel)
Well, actually, totally dependent, it sounds like... again, not what people normally mean by choice...

People do have to make choices. They will make different choices based upon their experiences. Some will jay-walk, some will not. Some will kill for your personal belongings, others would mystified at such a choice. What of a chess game? There may be a winning moving available, but will you see it? It depends a lot on your level of experience, and your level of concentration at any given moment, or whether you want to throw the game and let your opponent win, but I am certain the decision making process goes on in my brain, not the brain of someone else. It may well be that at the moment of decision I do not become aware of my decision until a small fraction of a second later, but it was still my decision.

I simply do not believe that our moves are predetermined, do you?

"I don't know how the brain formulates my awareness of self and gives me emotions, but I know that it does for I have seen what happens when that function is stripped away." (Cycel)
Awareness of self and emotions are related, but somewhat different... I don't doubt that you have self-awareness... that awareness would be the product of deterministic processes, though, wouldn't it? ...

We are sentient beings. I do not believe our decisions are out of our control. What is your point? What is it you believe?

 

[Cycel]

1) In the story or parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13, the five who were foolish and unprepared represent the hypocrites in the church. Visibly, they were church members engaged in a long wait for the appearance of the bridegroom (Jesus Christ) but they were not fully engaged in living out their profession with faith and hope and love. The foolish and unprepared had seemingly plenty of opportunity to prepare and to have something to give lovingly to others but instead they made demands upon others. They professed a hope for the arrival of the bridegroom but they did not live out a practice of being fully prepared for when he did arrive.

A long wait indeed: 2000 years, plus. I suppose all of the women would have had to replace their lamp oil long before this. Why is it you think five of the virgins were hypocrites? They simply did not bring enough oil for the wait. Perhaps they had greater faith and expected Christ not to be so long as the others who brought extra oil. Did those who brought extra oil trust him less? What exactly is it that you think the oil represents? It is something that can be shared, or refused, depending on the willingness of those who have more.

 

[nl]

A long wait indeed: 2000 years, plus. I suppose all of the women would have had to replace their lamp oil long before this. Why is it you think five of the virgins were hypocrites? They simply did not bring enough oil for the wait. Perhaps they had greater faith and expected Christ not to be so long as the others who brought extra oil. Did those who brought extra oil trust him less? What exactly is it that you think the oil represents? It is something that can be shared, or refused, depending on the willingness of those who have more.

The wait for justice has been a long one indeed. It has been a long while since Cain slew Abel and left his body on the ground like a piece of trash. Many more injustices have happened since then. The believer anticipates that justice may be delayed but that it won't be denied. Jesus will bring justice when He comes. The atheist and unbeliever has no hope that justice will ever arrive for those who did not receive it either as perpetrators or victims during their lifetimes. (Prayer: Lord, have mercy upon me.)

It is the responsibility of those who will attend a wedding to be ready for the wedding. If anyone is truly friends of the bridegroom and bride, then it is consistent with such a confession for such a one to maintain full readiness with gifts (if any) , proper wedding clothing and oil. For a night-time wedding, they would be needing a generous supply of oil to last for many hours.

The oil has been understood to be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is something to seek earnestly and to seek in an abundance. Christians need the Holy Spirit so that their lives are a demonstration not of fleshly power only but also of spiritual power.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? - Luke 11:11-13

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. - Romans 8:9

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. ...as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - Gospel of John - Chapter 3

"The faith that saves is not alone."

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. - Letter to the Ephesian Church 4:30

 

[Dan_473]

People do have to make choices. They will make different choices based upon their experiences. Some will jay-walk, some will not. Some will kill for your personal belongings, others would mystified at such a choice. What of a chess game? There may be a winning moving available, but will you see it? It depends a lot on your level of experience, and your level of concentration at any given moment, or whether you want to throw the game and let your opponent win, but I am certain the decision making process goes on in my brain, not the brain of someone else. It may well be that at the moment of decision I do not become aware of my decision until a small fraction of a second later, but it was still my decision.

I simply do not believe that our moves are predetermined, do you?


We are sentient beings. I do not believe our decisions are out of our control. What is your point? What is it you believe?

"I simply do not believe that our moves are predetermined, do you?"
Yes, based on science. Look around the universe... do you see anything that is not deterministic? Why do you think your brain should be anything different?



"We are sentient beings. I do not believe our decisions are out of our control."
Unless you can provide evidence based on observation and experimentation, our decisions are completely determined by previous states of the universe, including our brains.




"What is your point?"
That based on the simple physics we want to talk about, all of our decisions are determined by previous states... 'choice' as we experience it is an illusion...



"What is it you believe?"
I believe that we do make choices, and that this is an indication that there is something going on here beyond physics.

However, for now, on this thread, I'm just dealing with science, knowledge gained from observation and experimentation, with a rational approach.

You say you can choose to get up and get a coke. Are you presenting this as evidence? something we can observe, acceptable as an experiment? I can program my computer to 'get up and get a coke'... is your 'choice' any different from my computer's? If so, please state your reasons, as I'm really interested in exploring this... I agree that your brain is far more complex than my computer, but break down the processes... they're the same, are they not?

As I said, I'm interested in exploring this... eagerly awaiting your response.