Ok, all jokes aside now.
We've both got the same book. The same words are on our pages. You don't understand it any more or less than me. The only difference is that you believe it and I don't.
Belief does not equal knowledge.
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Ok, all jokes aside now.
We've both got the same book. The same words are on our pages. You don't understand it any more or less than me. The only difference is that you believe it and I don't.
Belief does not equal knowledge.
And that is the difference between understanding it and not understanding it.
When it comes to the Bible, it is the only avenue to knowledge.
It is a closed book to you, but not to me.
I'd like to explore this a little if that's ok. Genesis is pretty straightforward to read. I understand fully the story being told. I just don't believe it's true.
When you read it, you read exactly the same story as me. The same people, same events and same outcomes.... It's exactly the same story. So how does you believing it to be true alter the story in any way?
I'm sorry to interrupt and jump in so if I'm ignored there's no hard feelings, but there is a big difference in your understanding of the bible before you have the supernatural regeneration of yourself through the total submission of your will completely to the will of Jesus, and through His shed blood (because He lived as a man upholding the law 100% making Him the only acceptable sacrifice to appease a perfectly just God) He reconciled Himself to us allowing the Holy Spirit to enter us and dwell inside, and after this happens, He actually heightens your talents and guides you into how to use them to bring His name glory Which you will want to do, not be forced. It is night and day between the understandings of the reborn compared to the unbeliever. I never read the bible before I was regenerated, or talked on Christian websites. I had other stuff "more important" to do like video games.
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Sorry, I won't be exploring with you a book which is understood only by a faith which you do not have.
That would be an exercise in futility.
Understood only by a faith?
You're essentially arguing, "The only way you'll understand how this is true is if you use faith to accept it as true." The problem with this logic is that if you accept something must be true no matter what the evidence is, then there's no way you'd know you were wrong until you allowed yourself to doubt the thing you have faith in - something you will not allow yourself to do. In short, you have made it so you couldn't possibly know you were wrong.
Where in the bible does it say you need faith to understand it?
If it doesn't say it in the bible... Where did you get this from?
This is for you too Jim
1 Corinthians 2:14 | The natural person is not responsive to the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Natural people can understand plenty from the Bible and it is good for them to do so. Jesus spoke the Sermon on the Mount, spoke parables and demonstrated miracles to many types of people and outcomes varied with some believing and others not believing.
Natural understanding and wisdom will not be sufficient for a fuller understanding of God.
Context for 1 Corinthians Chapter 2:
1 Corinthians 2:1-5 | ESV | And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I resolved to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Verses 1-5 describe how the Apostle Paul won converts to Christianity at Corinth in Greece in the first century. Miracles were part of the persuasion. There were visible miracles. There was also a change of heart and a coming to heart-faith among Paul's hearers which were also miracles.
Theologies may vary but human will is not sufficient for a person to come to heavenly citizenship. God must grant mercy and pardon to the individual person. Scripture contains promises that God will not reject those who come to come [in sincerity and earnestness] and people ought to seek God, believe the Scriptures, repent, believe, etc.. However, ultimately, the Holy Spirit of God must do a work in changing a person from the inside out.
There are several sources for wisdom, philosophy and religion in the world. However, Jesus Christ was the only Incarnate manifestation of God on earth and the only sacrifice for sins by which individuals might be justly pardoned.
The Bible doesn't mention that micro-organisms cause disease either. So do you deny germ theory because of this? One of the gospels even has Christ telling the Pharisees that hand washing isn't important. Jewish hand washing laws before eating are man's laws, not God's law, so they don't count anymore. We know Jesus was wrong, or at least we know that the author of the gospel was wrong for having him say this.
If we relied on scripture for medical knowledge, or any other science, we would return to the Dark Ages. So think twice when you claim something can't be true because it is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
I personally didn't read this in the bible then apply it. It was just revealed to me after my regeneration. I simply gained more understanding and interest in the Word of God after the supernatural change. Before I was regenerated I had absolutely no interest in any of these things period. It's really hard to explain to someone who has no idea how much the Holy Spirit literally changes a man, or accepts that this is a REAL event at all. It's that pesky supernatural aspect that unbelievers can't see "proof" of. It's like the gifts you read about in the bible, just on a more personal level. That's how the person Knows God is there, yet we can't use this as "proof" to show others. God literally opens up your understanding and you understand verses to mean stuff completely different then you though before God changed you. See my boggle? How does one show that to the person asking for proof? You have to seek proof from God men just can't "prove" it for you, and I feel God designed it that way for a reason.
See the disconnect here is that it's not just "faith" that causes the understanding difference. The tangible difference in understanding between the saved and the unsaved only happens AFTER being regenerated by God. The biggest problem is you don't believe this can happen. You are under the impression, like even most modern Christians these days, that Christianity is only a belief system one "chooses for themselves" to join, and after a few words you're in the club. I thought this too most all my life. I've only thought otherwise the last year.
You don't just say to yourself "I believe this now" than gain a whole new understanding like you're implying. You are supernaturally changed COMPLETELY by God and made all new, then you have a new understanding. What you think true Christianity is, is a false view so there is no way to gain insight into why we believe so fully in something that can't be naturally proven when you can't even accept what really happens in the regeneration of a human, not to mention the fact you dismiss the fact anything like this change can happen at all because you've seen no natural evidence to prove the supernatural, which again can not exist by very definition. It's like trying to explain how a car propels its self down the street, but completely rejecting the engine can exist. I do understand why it sounds so silly to you though, and I don't think Elin is the best person to explain it. Not because she's incapable or doesn't know or anything like that, just the personality types clash and it's a hard thing to explain to someone who so fully thinks it's all fake.
Lying? Why? Some might use deception to persuade, but probably most are simply mistaken in their understanding, and a small number might be deluded.[/quote]
I wonder how many I can show you who believe they have seen UFOs, or believe they've been abducted by aliens, or have seen Big Foot or ghosts? The list goes on. No doubt a few are deceptive but most probably want so badly to believe in these things that they are not too discriminating in their acceptance of the so-called evidence. No doubt a small number are simply deluded.
Then you haven't been looking. Dan Barker is one, and Jerry DeWitt is another. You can read their books or find them on YouTube. Both are former evangelical preachers. There are quite a few others. I would direct you to the Clergy Project. I think there are around 500 members who are former clergy. Also, take a look at the book, Caught in the Pulpit: Leaving Belief Behind. There are quite a few who’ve come forward and said "Oops, I was mistaken." You can read about them, if you are curious.phil112 said:
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I absolutely agree with you. IQ has no bearing on whether a person believes or does not believe in God.
Erm... No.
Atheism is simply the disbelief of theist claims.
That's all it is. It's got nothing to do with anything else.
All you have to do is Google the word and this comes up first...
"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."
As you can see this has nothing to do with your picture you posted.
Er...um...oh...good for you.
Beyond rejections and denials of what others profess to believe, it is necessary for atheists to affirm some things.
If you send anyone to the store with a list of what not to buy, they are unlikely to return with anything until some choice of items gets affirmed. People could get hungry that way.
Other professing atheists on these threads have affirmed support for at least #1 and #2:
- A universe from nothing
- Life from non-life
Atheism is not making any claims. It's the rejection of a claim. Nothing else.
Imagine you had an unopened jar of sweets. And you said 'I think there is an odd number of sweets in this jar'.
If I reply saying that you don't have enough evidence to justify that... That doesn't mean I am declaring there is an even number of sweets in the jar. I'm not making any claim, I'm just doubting yours.
Imagine you had an unopened jar of sweets. And you said 'I think there is an odd number of sweets in this jar'.
If I reply saying that you don't have enough evidence to justify that... That doesn't mean I am declaring there is an even number of sweets in the jar. I'm not making any claim, I'm just doubting yours.