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God has proven his existence? This is a statement that convinces only those who already believe. Atheists don't believe because they cannot find any reason to believe, and trust me, I very much wanted to believe and tried very hard to find anything at all that pointed to God's existence. That God exists is not nearly as obvious as you think. Can you give a single piece of evidence that cannot be refuted or explained by other means?
I am going along with you on this flow. God wants us to respect Him and not fear Him.
Cycel, I know that you know the sun and believe in the sun. You can see it and feel its warmth only part of the day and mostly during one part of the year in the northern latitudes but you know that it's there. You retain knowledge of the sun even at times when you can't see it. Knowing the sun is something you don't forget.
Then, why do you forget your Creator? You have sensed Him at times. The sun makes no claims on you. The Son of God does make claims on you.
Dishonest people have gone into a courtroom and denied what they knew when it was convenient. But, I believe better things concerning yourself.
Please don't deny what you have known. Romans 1 speaks of unbelieving people without excuse and people who knew God but glorified him not as God. Romans 1 speaks about those who did not like to retain God in their knowledge. I use mostly KJV. Those words are there.
A simple creed is: Jesus is LORD. Lords can be demanding.
Intelligent Design is a simple explanation for the coordination and inter-dependencies that we see within and between organisms. Some show a preference (or perhaps a bias) towards any explanation that excludes God.
Cycel, thank you for your openness to new knowledge. I would urge you to retain your knowledge of what you have known in the past. Some revelations, some opportunities may happen only once and it is best that they not be forgotten.
I hear you, so let's unpack that.
Actually, first, you were looking for reasons to believe by your own power.
But you don't need to "believe" in God to make this prayer with a sincere heart:
"O God, if there is a God, please convince me that you are true."
Secondly, if you want to know God is true only so you can decide for yourself
if you agree with him or not, he will not answer that prayer.
When you make that prayer, you must be willing to believe and obey what he shows you,
or again, he won't show you anything.
That's because he is God, and there is only one right response to him--belief and obedience,
and he will not enable any wrong responses to him.
It's better for you not to know at all, than to know and reject him.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
One problem is the question of God and faith is sometimes not addressed properly. People, even some Christian people, equate faith with believing in the existence of God, tell the atheist God is just a matter of faith. This isn't much of a testimony. This is not the essence of faith! Sure, one must first believe He exists, but God didn't ever lay on us the expectation of blind faith. Jesus Christ proved Himself to the apostles and people of His day. Were overwhelming evidence not in the Bible, I'd have never believed: I'm not one and have never been one to believe some novel. Reading the New Testament and seeing it true brought me to a confrontation with the Lord, and simply a love of Jesus Christ for His truth. Since then, the proof is there.
To the Christian, faith is beyond existential matters, rather involves love and trust in God, a reverence of God, believing in the worthiness of God, and a faith that absolutely knows: we experience the Holy Spirit working in our lives, even. But God left much proof in the Bible, and the atheist (please, I'm not being mean, at all, just telling it like it is) is being pigheaded to not recognize fulfilled prophecy and the statistical impossibility prophetic fulfillments we already know of, such as the first coming of our Lord Jesus recorded in the Old Testament, that it's not possible the prophecies are due to random chance. God said it outright, that He shows His power in prophecy impossible to man,
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
I can state these things which are true, and still, in my experience, the atheist will not respond, as if standing before a forest and claiming there are no trees.
It's long been my belief that most atheism is a rejection of God, that denying His existence is really a refusal to want to know Him for vanity, as only a real dummy could not understand fulfilled prophecy as proof when this is presented. It's more a matter, "I don't want to believe." (John 3:19-21) Rebellion or some real idiocy, not much in-between.
Here's your proof, which I've posted many times, yet the atheist is still, duh! (Interesting that most atheists refuse to even study the evidence. I can't count the times I've been responded to over the proof in such links in a few minutes, with knee jerk denial, when it would take some study to actually evaluate the information: they won't do it.)
Fulfilled Prophecy as Evidence
Prophecies of the Old Testament Fulfilled in Jesus Christ (This link is sometimes slow.)
And this is only one front of the available proof, prophecy the most dramatic and undeniable, but there's a larger case.
To the Christian, faith is beyond existential matters, rather involves love and trust in God, a reverence of God, believing in the worthiness of God, and a faith that absolutely knows: we experience the Holy Spirit working in our lives, even. But God left much proof in the Bible, and the atheist (please, I'm not being mean, at all, just telling it like it is) is being pigheaded to not recognize fulfilled prophecy and the statistical impossibility prophetic fulfillments we already know of, such as the first coming of our Lord Jesus recorded in the Old Testament, that it's not possible the prophecies are due to random chance. God said it outright, that He shows His power in prophecy impossible to man,
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
I can state these things which are true, and still, in my experience, the atheist will not respond, as if standing before a forest and claiming there are no trees.
It's long been my belief that most atheism is a rejection of God, that denying His existence is really a refusal to want to know Him for vanity, as only a real dummy could not understand fulfilled prophecy as proof when this is presented. It's more a matter, "I don't want to believe." (John 3:19-21) Rebellion or some real idiocy, not much in-between.
Here's your proof, which I've posted many times, yet the atheist is still, duh! (Interesting that most atheists refuse to even study the evidence. I can't count the times I've been responded to over the proof in such links in a few minutes, with knee jerk denial, when it would take some study to actually evaluate the information: they won't do it.)
Fulfilled Prophecy as Evidence
Prophecies of the Old Testament Fulfilled in Jesus Christ (This link is sometimes slow.)
And this is only one front of the available proof, prophecy the most dramatic and undeniable, but there's a larger case.
Hi NL, I only have time for a very quick post.
I guess the basic difference is that I have physical evidence of the Sun. I see it in the sky on most days. I have never seen or felt God. If God was visible in the sky every day to everyone on Earth then I would believe differently. You may have a sense that God is real, and some people may have a sense that Ganesh is real, but this doesn't make Ganesh real. It is not like seeing and feeling the Sun.
God's silence doesn't mean that He isn't there. The story of Adam and Eve tells of an early fellowship with God that was broken when the serpent was believed and trusted and God was rejected. We need to invite God back.
Life can have many afflictions or life can be comparatively smooth. This doesn't indicate God's disfavor or favor. The righteous may have many afflictions. The ungodly may have a comparatively smooth life.
Life can have many afflictions or life can be comparatively smooth. This doesn't indicate God's disfavor or favor. The righteous may have many afflictions. The ungodly may have a comparatively smooth life.
I have been feeling convicted that I wasn't careful enough when I wrote this post. It's been bothering me a bit. I think that I made unwarranted assumptions and depended upon uncertain recollections. I have been reading Sin, The Plague of Plagues (The Sinfulness of Sin) (first published 1669) by Ralph Venning. I sometimes borrow or make adaptations from the thoughts of others. I try to give acknowledgment where necessary. The voice and perspective of authors can be different from my own and I need to keep them separate.
Sorry.
No need to make an apology, NL. I can't count the number of times I've second guessed myself after making a post. You were genuine and I know that.
I am much impressed with your reading material. I don't think I could get through a book like that. How are you finding it? I wonder whether Venning's outlook is much different from contemporary Christian thought? Did he make reference to the Sun in some of his discussions?
^This^
According to what you said Cycel "tried very hard to find anything at all that pointed to God's existence"
You were looking in the wrong places and even the wrong way. It is not based on earthly evidence but God revealing Himself to you, in which you ask with a sincere heart for God to do. I did, and He did.
Edit: But you've probably heard that a thousand times by now
lol
I agree. Silence is never confirmation of absence, but it doesn't give much to go on either.
Imagine you are a Hindu who is experiencing some doubt over the existence of Ganesh and in efforts to shore up belief you make all the requisite efforts to contact the deity, but despite expectations you hear nothing back. At what point are you justified in giving up belief? That, in a nut shell, is the situation I found myself in. In truth there was more to my own struggle than that, but in the final analysis had God shown himself I would be a believer today.
First, I can't see the story of Adam and Eve as anything more than a metaphor for something else (you pick the metaphor). At worst I see it as a myth which addresses questions of interest to the culture that created it. One of those truths might be an explanation of why snakes don't have legs. Another addresses why child birth is painful. Another explains why an early perceived paradise was lost. Note that the story of Pandora's box also addresses some similar issues.nl said:
In other words things transpire much as one would expect if rewards are distributed randomly?nl said:
To clarify I should point out that by the time in my life I am referring to I had given up efforts to find any physical presence of God and turned exclusively to prayer and scripture. 'Knock and the door will be opened,' that is what I believed. I knocked, but the door did not open.^This^
According to what you said Cycel "tried very hard to find anything at all that pointed to God's existence"
You were looking in the wrong places and even the wrong way. It is not based on earthly evidence but God revealing Himself to you, in which you ask with a sincere heart for God to do. I did, and He did.
Edit: But you've probably heard that a thousand times by now
I certainly have not examined all biblical prophecy, however, I have looked at a few of the claims. I have never seen one that to my mind made any sense. I don't look at them all because they seem, truthfully, like nonsense. The Old Testament prophecies don’t seem to even pertain to Christianity.
Why don’t you type up one prophecy that you think is really good, and I will discuss it with you. Please though, don’t send me to a link giving 3000 to look at.
P
phil112
Guest
I'll take you up on that. I'll pm you.I certainly have not examined all biblical prophecy, however, I have looked at a few of the claims. I have never seen one that to my mind made any sense. I don't look at them all because they seem, truthfully, like nonsense. The Old Testament prophecies don’t seem to even pertain to Christianity.
Why don’t you type up one prophecy that you think is really good, and I will discuss it with you. Please though, don’t send me to a link giving 3000 to look at.
THANKS.
Thx again.
As you may know, many British church ministers were ejected from the churches following the Act of Conformity of 1662.
Let coincidences and Providence be viewed as they might but the the Great Plague of London happened during 1665-1666 and fifteeen percent of London's population died of bubonic plague and related causes. The Great Fire of London happened during 1666 and destroyed many buildings.
The ejected ministers lost their pulpits but several picked up their pens and wrote amazing stuff.
Ralph Venning's: Sin, The Plague of Plagues (The Sinfulness of Sin) was first published in 1669. I find that it has much to offer so I have been putting it down often to meditate and ponder and then picking it up again. I think that the Puritan outlook of the 17th century in general and Venning's outlook as a particular case are very different from what is presented in modern Christian churches and bookstores.
I don't recall Venning writing about the sun but he may have done so. I have had a song about the sun in my head all week and have had thoughts about the sun that I have shared on this forum previously.
John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress was published later in this period during 1678.
Restrictions remained in place until at least 1689.
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I certainly have not examined all biblical prophecy, however, I have looked at a few of the claims. I have never seen one that to my mind made any sense. I don't look at them all because they seem, truthfully, like nonsense. The Old Testament prophecies don’t seem to even pertain to Christianity.
Why don’t you type up one prophecy that you think is really good, and I will discuss it with you. Please though, don’t send me to a link giving 3000 to look at.
Handel's Messiah is a wonderful piece of music that has moistened my eyes more than once.
There is only one piece of music like Handel's Messiah and there is only one Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The lyrics of Handel's Messiah are rich in Bible prophecy. Some of the prophecy looks to the future; some looks to the past. Some prophecies have multiple fulfillments at multiple points in history.
Lyrics link: Worship Map Lyrics:Handel's Messiah (text)
One of the fulfilled prophecies is:
[SIZE=+1](8) Behold A Virgin Shall Conceive[/SIZE]
Isaiah 7:14 (Matthew 1:23)
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name EMMANUEL, God with us.Isaiah 7:14 (Matthew 1:23)
Why did God delay three years? Indecision? Can you demonstrate that only those responsible for the egregious dismissal of the ministers were punished and that none of the ministers themselves died from plague?
Another point is that the plague began in the Netherlands and spread to England via trade routes.
Apparently a milk maid was careless with a lantern and started the fire, if memory serves me correctly. Structures were built mostly of wood at that time, but after the Great Fire regulations were change and many future structures were composed of brick. Also many historians believe it was the fire that ended the plague. Misfortune has its silver linings.
Ah, Venning made the connection with God's wrath?
Wishful thinking no doubt.
I did not notice that Venning even mentioned the plague or fire but I have not completed reading the book. However, Venning's original title, Sin: The Plague of Plagues, does appear to be an allusion to the plague and refers to sin being worse than the plague. I have read from another ejected, Puritan minister who did make a more direct reference about the fire.
The plague can kill you only once. The Bible does speak about a second death (and a second birth) when referring to eternal or infinite outcomes. Venning's text does use the phrase "sinfulness of sin" more than once.
Regarding Providence, I am reluctant to say anything about cause and effect. I do believe that Almighty God's power plays a role in preserving, protecting, sustaining, saving after originally creating. Prayers for God to show His power and to give his Holy Spirit are appropriate. In this world, levels of prosperity and levels of adversity can be easily misinterpreted as God's approval and disapproval. I have seen at least one skeptical agnostic who appeared to conclude that God (if he exists) cannot be so displeased with him because of the earthly comforts that he enjoyed.
The plague can kill you only once. The Bible does speak about a second death (and a second birth) when referring to eternal or infinite outcomes. Venning's text does use the phrase "sinfulness of sin" more than once.
Regarding Providence, I am reluctant to say anything about cause and effect. I do believe that Almighty God's power plays a role in preserving, protecting, sustaining, saving after originally creating. Prayers for God to show His power and to give his Holy Spirit are appropriate. In this world, levels of prosperity and levels of adversity can be easily misinterpreted as God's approval and disapproval. I have seen at least one skeptical agnostic who appeared to conclude that God (if he exists) cannot be so displeased with him because of the earthly comforts that he enjoyed.