Scotland Referendum

[GodIsSalvation]

Scottish independence gains ground in referendum polls - CNN.com

I have been following this for a while now. It seems that according to a new opinion poll those favoring Scotland's independence have surged to a narrow lead, but it is still a very close race. Now I myself do not trust polls much, but regardless of the poll we can tell this will be a close race since British Prime Minister Cameron has been sent to try to drum up support for keeping Scotland as part of the United Kingdom.

Personally, I can see a bit of merit to both sides. Either way I find this to be a fascinating and historic decision either way the cards fall. I am making this topic mostly because I am very interested in any further information or opinions especially from anyone on here that might be from Scotland, the other British Isle Kingdoms (Wales, North Ireland, Ireland, England), or any of the British Crown Realms (Canada, NZ, Ausie, etc.)

(And please, no Braveheart memes.)

 

[ThomistColin]

I think there needs to be reform to include Scotland's views and Welsh views in the decision of Prime Minister, however, if Scotland were to declare independence, I believe it would be a grave mistake that will lead it down the road that Ireland has unfortunately taken. One that ends in a bankrupt nation.

 

[Agricola]

Anyone who is wanting an independant Scotland is deluded. Financial ruin awaits. Alex Salmond the leader of the Nationalist Party can not make his mind up on the currency, so what hope is there for anything else? First they whine about the Pound Sterling, how its filthy and not worth wiping backside on, now we see a U Turn where they want to keep on using it tied in with the rest of the English economy, how is that going to work? It is not.

Further points is that the whole of UK has payed into to the Scottish Banks, most noteably the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds in bailing them out of collapse, yes due to the fat cat greedy bankers the UK Government decided that it was best interest to pay billions of pounds to these banks to stop them going under.

Oil fields are running out, they are on last legs, literally, there is no golden goose or cash cow with the oil fields, once depleted what has Scotland got? Haggis and relying on Americans and Canadians who have a romantic image of Scotland because they swooned over Mel Gibson in Braveheart?

Scotland is a superb part of the UK, the diversity is brilliant, but that diversity and the cottage industries that make Scotland so great is thanks mainly down to subsidies. Yes the cottage industries and quaint old buisnesses etc, especailly in the more remote places like the Western Isles, are only really there thanks to funding from the UK Government, if this funding is pulled you can guarantee that most people would just move leaving Scotland even less populated, great for the wildlife, but not so great for the economy of Scotland.

final thought, Europe. Scotland will be a a non-existant poor nation of Europe with no clout, if they think they can continue riding on the coat tails of the United Kingdom they should think again. The EU has made it clear they will not be allowed to join the EU monetry system and they will have to apply for membership of the EU, which could take years.

Although the United Kingdom is broken, we still have one of the best economies in the world, as a result we have a perment seat on UN secuirty council, leadership of NATO and so on, all this Scotland will no longer be part of.

Too many Scots looking back hundreds of years ago through rose tinted glasses forming a romantic notion that Independence will be great, when it will be a disaster.

 

[Desdichado]

As a student of history, I am both stumped and morbidly fascinated by this referendum. Will self-determination trump economic interest or the other way around? Will the status of Scotland as a distinct people trump 400 years of precedent?

Grab you lawn chairs, boys and girls. This is about to get real interesting. It also makes you wonder what Texas might be thinking...

 

[David_1]

After reading the issues I'm pro-independence.

I think economically they will be better off. Especially if they can tax the oil the reserves and create a strong soverign fund.

Ireland was doing great economically until the Global Financial Crisis.

Australia for the most part is already a lot more independent than Scotland is.

Now, if we can just get independence from the American Empire! One can only dream! Instead we have to settle by taking over Hollywood by stealth.

 

[ThomistColin]

Sometimes I wonder if Scotland realizes that a descendant of their last King is on the Throne.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

It is very interesting indeed.

I am neutral by the way, despite my avatar I've sort of always thought of Scotland as a separate country, but I do wonder what they intend to do with.... well, everything if they go independent.

 

[Petals]

I am Scottish & I am really exited & nervous about this referendum.. it is coming up on Thursday.. I have no idea how it will turn out, I personally hope to have independance.. & being Scottish, it has been really difficult reading all the negative comments on the internet, I am not tarnishing all English ppl with the same brush, but the ones that leave comments on anything to do with our independance have been really negative, always saying that English ppl subsidize us.. we pay our taxes up here just like everyone else in the rest of the uk, we the Scots, do not live off money that comes from the English tax payer.. it's comments like that, that makes me want to go independant even more!

 

[crossnote]

After reading the issues I'm pro-independence.

I think economically they will be better off. Especially if they can tax the oil the reserves and create a strong soverign fund.

Ireland was doing great economically until the Global Financial Crisis.

Australia for the most part is already a lot more independent than Scotland is.

Now, if we can just get independence from the American Empire! One can only dream! Instead we have to settle by taking over Hollywood by stealth.

Now that David_1 has voted, I know the best course...remain.

 

[wisebeardman]

I am Scottish & I am really exited & nervous about this referendum.. it is coming up on Thursday.. I have no idea how it will turn out, I personally hope to have independance.. & being Scottish, it has been really difficult reading all the negative comments on the internet, I am not tarnishing all English ppl with the same brush, but the ones that leave comments on anything to do with our independance have been really negative, always saying that English ppl subsidize us.. we pay our taxes up here just like everyone else in the rest of the uk, we the Scots, do not live off money that comes from the English tax payer.. it's comments like that, that makes me want to go independant even more!

Something I read was Scotland sends more money to London then London sends back to Scotland, If it is true then Independence could be good.

Ether way the vote goes it is going to have effects.

Now if we could only get Independence movements here to get us away from the Fed and keep Idiots from California and other left wing wacko states from trying to dictate policy for us that do not want it.

 

[Angela53510]

We have had this nonsense with Quebec always wanting to separate from Canada. The catch is, we send them huge amounts of money, esp. Alberta, and they actually want to separate, and have Canada continue to send them money. I speak French, but I say if they want to go, let them.

I am really puzzled as to why Scotland wants to separate. And what will it do to the Union Jack? Small countries mean small economies of scale. It would be like northern Alberta separating from southern Alberta, except more territory here, and no remnants of Hadrian's wall separating them.

So is this just about nationalism or economy? I've been reading about this, but I have seen no coherent reasons for or against! Please enlighten me as to the reasons!

 

[Petals]

We have had this nonsense with Quebec always wanting to separate from Canada. The catch is, we send them huge amounts of money, esp. Alberta, and they actually want to separate, and have Canada continue to send them money. I speak French, but I say if they want to go, let them.

I am really puzzled as to why Scotland wants to separate. And what will it do to the Union Jack? Small countries mean small economies of scale. It would be like northern Alberta separating from southern Alberta, except more territory here, and no remnants of Hadrian's wall separating them.

So is this just about nationalism or economy? I've been reading about this, but I have seen no coherent reasons for or against! Please enlighten me as to the reasons!

The reason why Scotland wants to go Independant is because we don't have our own powers & we don't control our own money, our money is sent down to Westminster in London where they decide for us how our money is spent.

Whenever we have a general election, it doesn't matter what Scotland votes for, we are only a minority of the vote compared to the rest of the uk, so our vote doesn't have an impact on the outcome of the elections & we always end up with governments that we did not vote for, this is why we are voting for Independance, we want to be able to control our own money & have full control of who we vote for.

The reason why only Scotland is voting in this referendum is for the exact same reason, if we allowed the rest of the uk to vote too.. then there would probably be zero chance of us getting our Independance, cos chances are the rest of the uk would all vote no, plus if half of us in Scotland vote no too, then what are the chances of us winning? Back in 1979's referendum, when they allowed the rest of the uk to vote on it.. we didn't win.

 

[Desdichado]

The reason why Scotland wants to go Independant is because we don't have our own powers & we don't control our own money, our money is sent down to Westminster in London where they decide for us how our money is spent.

Whenever we have a general election, it doesn't matter what Scotland votes for, we are only a minority of the vote compared to the rest of the uk, so our vote doesn't have an impact on the outcome of the elections & we always end up with governments that we did not vote for, this is why we are voting for Independance, we want to be able to control our own money & have full control of who we vote for.

The reason why only Scotland is voting in this referendum is for the exact same reason, if we allowed the rest of the uk to vote too.. then there would probably be zero chance of us getting our Independance, cos chances are the rest of the uk would all vote no, plus if half of us in Scotland vote no too, then what are the chances of us winning? Back in 1979's referendum, when they allowed the rest of the uk to vote on it.. we didn't win.

Part of me wants a New York or California referendum for the South, West, and Midwest to vote on.

 

[1still_waters]

The reason why Scotland wants to go Independant is because we don't have our own powers & we don't control our own money, our money is sent down to Westminster in London where they decide for us how our money is spent.

Whenever we have a general election, it doesn't matter what Scotland votes for, we are only a minority of the vote compared to the rest of the uk, so our vote doesn't have an impact on the outcome of the elections & we always end up with governments that we did not vote for, this is why we are voting for Independance, we want to be able to control our own money & have full control of who we vote for.

The reason why only Scotland is voting in this referendum is for the exact same reason, if we allowed the rest of the uk to vote too.. then there would probably be zero chance of us getting our Independance, cos chances are the rest of the uk would all vote no, plus if half of us in Scotland vote no too, then what are the chances of us winning? Back in 1979's referendum, when they allowed the rest of the uk to vote on it.. we didn't win.

Many states/provinces/regions around the world could make these same arguments.
I guess everything has tradeoffs. You may gain all of those things if independent, but you will lose the benefits of being part of a nation.

Rhode Island could secede for the same reasons, but they'd lose all the benefits of being part of a nation.

If Scotland is ready to take the tradeoffs for independence, then vote yes.

 

[Desdichado]

What drives me insane though is how the Unionist and Separatist arguments hinge greatly on the viability of social welfare programs. As if that is the reason why both nations joined as one in 1707. But for the specter of William Wallace and King James, the current arguments are so rootless. History is almost a pretense or veneer around the fact that the rest of Britain is not progressive enough for socialist Scots.

But then the United Kingdom is not the same country she was, religiously, ideologically, or demographically. The country I would mourn the loss of, that beacon of peace, honor, and stability throughout the world, is dead no matter how the Scots vote in a few days.

It also makes me reflect on what has come of my beloved country and what will become of it. The blood of Numenor no longer flows through our veins. The free world as we have known it is shattering and there is no telling what will arise from her ashes.

I can only hope, pray, and do my part to advance the Gospel so peace, honor, and stability can return.

It's a long, long way to Tipperary, but my heart's still there.

 

[Desdichado]

I suppose at the end of the day my attitude is vote however you like. If you consider yourself one of those savage freemen, it is all rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Petals]

& also, another reason why we want independance.. the English folk often like to insinuate that they subsidize us & keep us going financially.. but considering the fact that we are all part of a union & we all pay our taxes just the same as each other... then how is it possible that the English are paying for the Scots? Why do they feel they have to put us down like that? I find it really degrading to be treated like that, & everytime I read a comment like that from an English person (I am not against English ppl btw XD).. it makes me not want to stay a part of the uk.

 

[skipp]

I don't blame Scotland for wanting independence. I hope they get it.

 

[JesusChica1991]

If America can do it, you can do it Have no fear!

 

[Desdichado]

& also, another reason why we want independance.. the English folk often like to insinuate that they subsidize us & keep us going financially.. but considering the fact that we are all part of a union & we all pay our taxes just the same as each other... then how is it possible that the English are paying for the Scots? Why do they feel they have to put us down like that? I find it really degrading to be treated like that, & everytime I read a comment like that from an English person (I am not against English ppl btw XD).. it makes me not want to stay a part of the uk.

The English insinuate it because it is a fact. Scotland remains somewhat prosperous largely due to their integration with the rest of the the UK's economic infrastructure. Split off, and you fill find a whole array of problems economic problems visiting your doorstep.

As for English paying for Scots. Yeah, you all pay your taxes but there is a lovely little thing called the Barnett system that ensures Scotland gets a disproportionately higher piece of the welfare chunk.

Another factor to consider is that Scotland's influence in the UK was also disproportionate to her size for a time. Consider the fact for a moment that many of the highest offices in the UK were held by Scotsmen who made laws for the English as well. It goes both ways.

Like many modern, grievance-holding people, the modern Scots whine about entitlement while downplaying their own influence in the whole thing.

Don't take this as Scotish-bashing, please. It is tough love. I have similarly stern words for my fellow Americans and am thoroughly convinced Scotland was instrumental in making the world a better place for hundreds of years in a profound way that most other nations cannot claim. You all led by example and moved to influence your neighbors to the south in a fashion so powerfully ironic that I believe even King Edward would appreciate.

I would urge you all to do the same, but I strongly doubt yours is the nation of John Knox and Adam Smith any more than mine is the nation of George Washington and Daniel Boone. A fact all lovers of liberty are justified in mourning.

If America can do it, you can do it Have no fear!

Two very different situations right there.