It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
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Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
All blessings are "in Christ," but this is not the allegory of John 15.
And there the works-salvation theory is slain, justification is by grace freely, not works. All blessings are in Christ Jesus; this is not the allegory of John 15.
All blessings are in Christ. But this is not the allegory of John 15.
To be in Christ is also to be in the Church; but there is no Church in the Gospel of John. It is preposterous to claim that "in" means the same thing in every passage.
All must be interpreted to agree with the principle in John that He gives the sheep eternal life & they never perish. And John 15 itself implies that the fruit abides, fruit brought forth by soul-winning done by those who abide in Christ. Just as 1 John 2, the fruit abides; that means eternal security for the fruit, which includes souls won to the Lord, the saved.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit
and THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE!!!
Atwood is saying abiding(stay or remain )in Christ has nothing to do with salvation which means if you don't abide in Him you are still saved.......scripture says ...redemption is in Christ...
scripture says salvation is in Christ...
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
To be in Christ is also to be in the Church; but there is no Church in the Gospel of John. It is preposterous to claim that "in" means the same thing in every passage.
All must be interpreted to agree with the principle in John that He gives the sheep eternal life & they never perish. And John 15 itself implies that the fruit abides, fruit brought forth by soul-winning done by those who abide in Christ. Just as 1 John 2, the fruit abides; that means eternal security for the fruit, which includes souls won to the Lord, the saved.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit
and THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE!!!
Now those who have never been saved are unlikely to understand John 15 well. Those who write off Christ as SAvior & wish to downgrade him to chance giver, need to repent & trust the Savior with their eternal destiny.
John 15 is about fellowship; the verses quoted below by the denier do not contain "salvation" at all.
JOHN 15
We deal with an allegory in this passage. Allegories may not be used to establish doctrine, but to illustrate doctrine established from propositional non-allegorical teaching. The passage does not mention salvation at all, but some may try to infer something about "losing salvation" where the words don't occur, from the reference to being "in Me," that is, "in Christ," which is then interpreted as meaning saved persons in the Body of Christ. Yet the preposition "en" in Greek is capable of a large number of differing translations, like "in company with." Since the passage does not mention "salvation" and is allegorical, it must be understood in agreement with the clear teaching of scripture that the saints perserve; once saved, saved. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish," etc.
It is to be noted that all of the Gospel of John was uttered BEFORE THE CHURCH AGE. Thus when the present tense is used (or implied) along with "in Christ," that cannot mean "in the Body of Christ, in the Church. Such an equation is false.
John 6:56 ὁ τρώγων μου τὴν σάρκα καὶ πίνων μου τὸ αἷμα ἐν ἐμοὶ μένει κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ.
In John 6 the present tense is used for abide/remain: "The one chewing my flesh and drinking my blood abides in me & I in Him." This is figurative language. It does not speak of being in Christ in the sense of a not-yet-existing Church.
1 John admonishes believers, little children, to abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ can come & go. But the same verb abide is used also to refer to staying in the Body of Christ, from which the believer must abide; he cannot do otherwise, as 1 John 2:18-19 tells us. "For is they had been of us, they would have remained (abode) with us." The verb is
μεμενήκεισαν, a form of meno, abide, με μεν ήκεισαν.
fruit can be people, i.e., souls won .
Rom 1:13: in order that I might have fruit among you. Yet the Lord Jesus prayed that the fruit would remain -- and his prayer cannot be denied.
So yes, indeed you find "in Christ" used for believers in Paul's writings. And "in Christ" is the source of all blessings. But being "in Christ" and in the Church is not the topic of John 15; the topic there is fellowship; Christians must maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus to be fruitful and not be chastised.
John 15 is about fellowship; the verses quoted below by the denier do not contain "salvation" at all.
JOHN 15
We deal with an allegory in this passage. Allegories may not be used to establish doctrine, but to illustrate doctrine established from propositional non-allegorical teaching. The passage does not mention salvation at all, but some may try to infer something about "losing salvation" where the words don't occur, from the reference to being "in Me," that is, "in Christ," which is then interpreted as meaning saved persons in the Body of Christ. Yet the preposition "en" in Greek is capable of a large number of differing translations, like "in company with." Since the passage does not mention "salvation" and is allegorical, it must be understood in agreement with the clear teaching of scripture that the saints perserve; once saved, saved. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish," etc.
It is to be noted that all of the Gospel of John was uttered BEFORE THE CHURCH AGE. Thus when the present tense is used (or implied) along with "in Christ," that cannot mean "in the Body of Christ, in the Church. Such an equation is false.
John 6:56 ὁ τρώγων μου τὴν σάρκα καὶ πίνων μου τὸ αἷμα ἐν ἐμοὶ μένει κἀγὼ ἐν αὐτῷ.
In John 6 the present tense is used for abide/remain: "The one chewing my flesh and drinking my blood abides in me & I in Him." This is figurative language. It does not speak of being in Christ in the sense of a not-yet-existing Church.
1 John admonishes believers, little children, to abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ can come & go. But the same verb abide is used also to refer to staying in the Body of Christ, from which the believer must abide; he cannot do otherwise, as 1 John 2:18-19 tells us. "For is they had been of us, they would have remained (abode) with us." The verb is
μεμενήκεισαν, a form of meno, abide, με μεν ήκεισαν.
fruit can be people, i.e., souls won .
Rom 1:13: in order that I might have fruit among you. Yet the Lord Jesus prayed that the fruit would remain -- and his prayer cannot be denied.
So yes, indeed you find "in Christ" used for believers in Paul's writings. And "in Christ" is the source of all blessings. But being "in Christ" and in the Church is not the topic of John 15; the topic there is fellowship; Christians must maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus to be fruitful and not be chastised.
If you admit that works don't save, then why go on about works in a thread on Eternal Security? Eternal Security hardly denies that good works FOLLOW salvation. Is it not ironic how persons who have never trusted Christ as Savior, and thus have never done even one good work in all their lives, can go on & on about good works (which they don't have)?
Ephesians 2 explains works & salvation:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2 explains works & salvation:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit...and if you don't bear fruit...
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
where does it imply that the fruit abides....it says the fruit should abide....look what happens if you don't abide
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
All blessings are "in Christ," but this is not the allegory of John 15.
And there the works-salvation theory is slain, justification is by grace freely, not works. All blessings are in Christ Jesus; this is not the allegory of John 15.
All blessings are in Christ. But this is not the allegory of John 15.
To be in Christ is also to be in the Church; but there is no Church in the Gospel of John. It is preposterous to claim that "in" means the same thing in every passage.
All must be interpreted to agree with the principle in John that He gives the sheep eternal life & they never perish. And John 15 itself implies that the fruit abides, fruit brought forth by soul-winning done by those who abide in Christ. Just as 1 John 2, the fruit abides; that means eternal security for the fruit, which includes souls won to the Lord, the saved.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit
and THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE!!!
And there the works-salvation theory is slain, justification is by grace freely, not works. All blessings are in Christ Jesus; this is not the allegory of John 15.
All blessings are in Christ. But this is not the allegory of John 15.
To be in Christ is also to be in the Church; but there is no Church in the Gospel of John. It is preposterous to claim that "in" means the same thing in every passage.
All must be interpreted to agree with the principle in John that He gives the sheep eternal life & they never perish. And John 15 itself implies that the fruit abides, fruit brought forth by soul-winning done by those who abide in Christ. Just as 1 John 2, the fruit abides; that means eternal security for the fruit, which includes souls won to the Lord, the saved.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you
that you should go and bear fruit
and THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD ABIDE!!!
that you should go and bear fruit...and if you don't bear fruit...
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
where does it imply that the fruit abides....it says the fruit should abide....look what happens if you don't abide
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
It does not just imply it; it says it overtly:
16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide:"
What the Lord appoints, you cannot unappoint. The Lord has appointed that the fruit abides.
Similarly 1 John 2:19
if they had been of us, they would have remained/abided with us:
Same verb, meno: μενω (the on the end means "I", meno = I abide/remain/stay, like hablo = I talk. The verb stem is men-; it is modified for tense, voice, mood, person, & number.
μεμενήκεισαν = they would have remained.
identification of form:
μεμενήκεισαν μένω Verb pluperf act indic 3 plur to remain, abide, stay
[ESVS] G3306
(pasted from Accordance Bible program).
What you are doing is taking an allegory and making an unnecessary interpretation of it. Those who fail to maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus bear no fruit and are chastised. Vine is not literal, branch is not literal, wither is not literal, "they are gathered" is not literal, burned is not literal.
There is vine, branch, fruit, cleansing of branches, burning of branches -- it is an allegory. The allegory is used to illustrate truth proven from propositional teaching of the Bible.
The plain teaching of scripture is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, that He gives them eternal life & they never perish, that all believers are chastised; & if not, then they are not believers. In that they are chastised, it implies that they sin. Believers all sin and are all chastised. The only alternative to chastisement, is not to be a child of God.
To know about salvation, study verses that have "salvation" in them.
where does it imply that the fruit abides
16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide:"
What the Lord appoints, you cannot unappoint. The Lord has appointed that the fruit abides.
Similarly 1 John 2:19
if they had been of us, they would have remained/abided with us:
Same verb, meno: μενω (the on the end means "I", meno = I abide/remain/stay, like hablo = I talk. The verb stem is men-; it is modified for tense, voice, mood, person, & number.
μεμενήκεισαν = they would have remained.
identification of form:
μεμενήκεισαν μένω Verb pluperf act indic 3 plur to remain, abide, stay
[ESVS] G3306
(pasted from Accordance Bible program).
What you are doing is taking an allegory and making an unnecessary interpretation of it. Those who fail to maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus bear no fruit and are chastised. Vine is not literal, branch is not literal, wither is not literal, "they are gathered" is not literal, burned is not literal.
There is vine, branch, fruit, cleansing of branches, burning of branches -- it is an allegory. The allegory is used to illustrate truth proven from propositional teaching of the Bible.
The plain teaching of scripture is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, that He gives them eternal life & they never perish, that all believers are chastised; & if not, then they are not believers. In that they are chastised, it implies that they sin. Believers all sin and are all chastised. The only alternative to chastisement, is not to be a child of God.
To know about salvation, study verses that have "salvation" in them.
K
Not if the bible does. Whether we agree or not, it should not seem like it's "in your face" all the time because there are people out there hearing about certain bible topics for the first time- even if you heard them a million times. We never know, so as Christians we need to teach every bible topic over and over again. If it is too often for you, don't click on the link- choose another topic to respond to. (respectfully speaking).
A
Re: OSS; To Quality As on Topic, a Vs Needs to Mention Salvation
What you really mean is where the bible contradicts my false teaching, then you will accuse the poster of being off topic.
OSS = once saved, saved! Eternal Security.
I give them everlasting life, and they shall never perish.
Now there is a verse on topic. To study salvation, you need to dwell on passages about the Savior and His savlng, and what He does to that end. If the passage is not about a Savior helping out us wretched sinners, it is really not quite on topic.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Note that He is to trusted as the Savior, the one who saves from sins;
not as the "chance-giver."
I give them everlasting life, and they shall never perish.
Now there is a verse on topic. To study salvation, you need to dwell on passages about the Savior and His savlng, and what He does to that end. If the passage is not about a Savior helping out us wretched sinners, it is really not quite on topic.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Note that He is to trusted as the Savior, the one who saves from sins;
not as the "chance-giver."
A
Re: Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation
Kenneth do you note that in all the scripture you quote, there is nothing about a Savior saving anyone, which is the topic of this thread.
Again you quote Hebrews 6 and don't go through 6:9 where the passage is explained. Again you seem to confuse rewards with salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Do you have a phobia of verses about salvation?
He is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"[/QUOTENo
LOL, I rest my case.
]
Again you quote Hebrews 6 and don't go through 6:9 where the passage is explained. Again you seem to confuse rewards with salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Do you have a phobia of verses about salvation?
He is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"[/QUOTENo
LOL, I rest my case.
]
Back on Topic; Eternal Security! Once Saved, Saved.
Ain't it outrageous? Why how dare the scripture say believers are saved?
How dare anyone believe that if you are saved, then you are saved?
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ain't it outrageous? Why how dare the scripture say believers are saved?
How dare anyone believe that if you are saved, then you are saved?
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
If you admit that works don't save, then why go on about works in a thread on Eternal Security? Eternal Security hardly denies that good works FOLLOW salvation. Is it not ironic how persons who have never trusted Christ as Savior, and thus have never done even one good work in all their lives, can go on & on about good works (which they don't have)?
Ephesians 2 explains works & salvation:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2 explains works & salvation:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
[h=2]Definition of REPROBATE[/h]transitive verb
1
: to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil <reprobating the laxity of the age>
2
: to foreordain to damnation
3
: to refuse to accept : reject
Re: Will the Old Canards Every Stop Repeating?
Back on Track:
Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because
thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,
Rom 8:
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Back on Track:
Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because
thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,
Rom 8:
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
What you are doing is taking an allegory and making an unnecessary interpretation of it. Those who fail to maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus bear no fruit and are chastised. Vine is not literal, branch is not literal, wither is not literal, "they are gathered" is not literal, burned is not literal.
There is vine, branch, fruit, cleansing of branches, burning of branches -- it is an allegory. The allegory is used to illustrate truth proven from propositional teaching of the Bible.
The plain teaching of scripture is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, that He gives them eternal life & they never perish, that all believers are chastised; & if not, then they are not believers. In that they are chastised, it implies that they sin. Believers all sin and are all chastised. The only alternative to chastisement, is not to be a child of God.
To know about salvation, study verses that have "salvation" in them.
Jesus said he is the vine...the vine is not literal but Jesus is real....he said we are the branches the branches are not literal but we are real...if branches don't abide in the vine they wither and are gathered and burned ...what happene if you don't abide in Christ?.....you get a pat on the back ...is that the truth you see...the allegory shows the branches are destroyed for not abiding in the vine....If Christ is real and you are real then the destruction is real for those not abiding in Chriat
What you are doing is taking an allegory and making an unnecessary interpretation of it. Those who fail to maintain fellowship with the Lord Jesus bear no fruit and are chastised. Vine is not literal, branch is not literal, wither is not literal, "they are gathered" is not literal, burned is not literal.
There is vine, branch, fruit, cleansing of branches, burning of branches -- it is an allegory. The allegory is used to illustrate truth proven from propositional teaching of the Bible.
The plain teaching of scripture is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, that He gives them eternal life & they never perish, that all believers are chastised; & if not, then they are not believers. In that they are chastised, it implies that they sin. Believers all sin and are all chastised. The only alternative to chastisement, is not to be a child of God.
To know about salvation, study verses that have "salvation" in them.
Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
NewB continues to go on & on about an allegory in verses where "salvation" is not mentioned.
The Lord Jesus is real. We are real. But He is not literally a vine and believers are not literal branches. The believers do not literally wither and are not literally gathered. Neither is the fire literal nor the burning literal. In the allegory the branch is burned, not destroyed.
It is an allegory. You cannot establish doctrine merely from allegory.
It is figurative for chastising. Chastising is an experience that all believers receive, for all believers sin. Believers are chastened, but not condemned. Believers may be delivered to satan for the destruction of the body, but the spirit will be saved. Thus we could conceive of a branch being burned up, but its spirit living on, saved in Heaven. But the allegory doesn't say burned up completely.
There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. Instead of making unnecessary interps of allegories & parables, you must first establish doctrine propositional teaching. And you need to make passages which speak about "salvation" of prime importance in your establishing of doctrine. Salvation is not the topic in John 15. Salvation is about a miserable sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting Christ as Savior; then He saves them, giving them a new nature & eternal life. That is not the topic in John 15.
This is no allegory:
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Any one reading this, who denies that Christ is the Savior, who denies that He gives His sheep eternal life, who denies that they shall never perish; is urged to trust the SAvior now. Now is the day of Salvation.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Fear not, only believe.
NewB continues to go on & on about an allegory in verses where "salvation" is not mentioned.
Jesus said he is the vine...the vine is not literal but Jesus is real....he said we are the branches the branches are not literal but we are real...if branches don't abide in the vine they wither and are gathered and burned ...what happene if you don't abide in Christ?.....you get a pat on the back ...is that the truth you see...the allegory shows the branches are destroyed for not abiding in the vine....If Christ is real and you are real then the destruction is real for those not abiding in Chriat
It is an allegory. You cannot establish doctrine merely from allegory.
It is figurative for chastising. Chastising is an experience that all believers receive, for all believers sin. Believers are chastened, but not condemned. Believers may be delivered to satan for the destruction of the body, but the spirit will be saved. Thus we could conceive of a branch being burned up, but its spirit living on, saved in Heaven. But the allegory doesn't say burned up completely.
There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. Instead of making unnecessary interps of allegories & parables, you must first establish doctrine propositional teaching. And you need to make passages which speak about "salvation" of prime importance in your establishing of doctrine. Salvation is not the topic in John 15. Salvation is about a miserable sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting Christ as Savior; then He saves them, giving them a new nature & eternal life. That is not the topic in John 15.
This is no allegory:
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Any one reading this, who denies that Christ is the Savior, who denies that He gives His sheep eternal life, who denies that they shall never perish; is urged to trust the SAvior now. Now is the day of Salvation.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Fear not, only believe.
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Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus(abide) what happens to those who don't remain in Christ (don't abide)
There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. Instead of making unnecessary interps of allegories & parables, you must first establish doctrine propositional teaching. And you need to make passages which speak about "salvation" of prime importance in your establishing of doctrine. Salvation is not the topic in John 15. Salvation is about a miserable sinner crying out "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusting Christ as Savior; then He saves them, giving them a new nature & eternal life. That is not the topic in John 15.
How can Atwood believe you can have salvation without abiding in Christ....where does scripture teach that?
What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
All salvation passages I know of never say "Abide in Christ" and you shall be saved. You cannot abide in Christ before you are saved! You cannot have fellowship with the Savior until you trust Him as Savior.
Now where does scripture teach that you can be saved without eating yeast & drinking shoe polish (so you rise & shine)? Give me one verse that says you can be saved without drinking shoe polish.
But in the sense of being in the Body of Christ, being "of us," 1 John 2 says that those "of us" abide. If they leave, they were never "of us."
And John 15 says that the fruit remains (abides, endures). That is by the Lord's appointment. Now who can unappoint what the Lord has appointed?
Will this be the day, NewB that you live up to your screen name, trust the Lord Jesus with your destiny, and receive eternal life? Do you have enough faith to ask Him to be your Savior (not chance-giver)?
Re: Abiding in Christ is Fellowship, not Salvation
Being in the Body of Christ, In Christ, is not the same thing as abiding in fellowship with Him. You are sticking in parenthetical words not in the scripture. For those who are presently in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation ever. God declares righteous, who is he who condemns? YOur condemnation goes nowhere. Nothing shall separate the believer from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Christians all sin, Christians all get chastised; no Christian gets condemned. Correction yes, condemnation no. Christians certainly can be carnal, walk after the flesh, as at Corinth, and like Paul in Romans 7. But there is therefore now no condemnation.
The fruit abides. The seed abides. The believer abides in the Body of Christ, though he can fail to abide in fellowship temporarily.
Why not cease going on over verses that do not have the words save/salvation/Savior.
To know about salvation, focus on passages which are directly on topic.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus(abide) what happens to those who don't remain in Christ (don't abide)
Christians all sin, Christians all get chastised; no Christian gets condemned. Correction yes, condemnation no. Christians certainly can be carnal, walk after the flesh, as at Corinth, and like Paul in Romans 7. But there is therefore now no condemnation.
The fruit abides. The seed abides. The believer abides in the Body of Christ, though he can fail to abide in fellowship temporarily.
Why not cease going on over verses that do not have the words save/salvation/Savior.
To know about salvation, focus on passages which are directly on topic.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Let us go back on topic: Once Saved, Saved!
< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The author & the finisher of our faith.
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
The believer is the overcomer who gets the promise that the Lord will never blot his name out of the book of life.
< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The author & the finisher of our faith.
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
The believer is the overcomer who gets the promise that the Lord will never blot his name out of the book of life.