from Wikipedia
The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt .
even if it is 6 years...it still falls within the week (prophecy)
When does the rapture occur?
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from Wikipedia
The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt .
even if it is 6 years...it still falls within the week (prophecy)
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GaryA
Guest
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GaryA
Guest
See Luke 21:20.
Luke is recounting Jesus talking about the aftermath of 70 A.D.
He is discussing the same time frame in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. He did not give three 'Olivet Discourse' discussions. He gave only one. The Matthew, Mark, and Luke accounts are three accounts of the same 'Olivet Discourse' discussion.
What? As stated before, all three accounts are based on the same discussion.
The Matthew account is Matthew recounting what Jesus said during His 'Olivet Discourse'.
The Mark account is Mark recounting what Jesus said during His 'Olivet Discourse'.
The Luke account is Luke recounting what Jesus said during His 'Olivet Discourse'.
The details differ from account to account; however, it is still only one discourse. And, Jesus said all of it.
( I don't have a problem with this statement... )
The answer is Yes! -- everything in that verse ( Daniel 9:27 ) - except a single phrase - came to pass "before, during, and after" 70 A.D. :
Daniel 9:
[SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Before 70 A.D.
70 A.D.
After 70 A.D. ( 'aftermath' )
The questions to answer are:
~ How long is 'the times of the Gentiles'?
~ How long did / would / will it take for the Jews to 'be led away captive into all nations'?
~ Is Jerusalem currently being 'trodden down of the Gentiles'?
~ When did Jerusalem begin to be 'trodden down of the Gentiles'?
Keep in mind that --- 'the times of the Jews' ended at the end of the 70 weeks --- which is exactly and precisely what the 70 weeks is all about!
The 70 weeks ended before 70 A.D.
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GaryA
Guest
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kennethcadwell
Guest
The abomination that causes desolation has not happened yet.
It did not happen before Christ, it did not happen during Christ, and it did not happen in 70 AD.
The abomination that causes desolation is not the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies, the abomination is caused by the antichrist who has not come to power yet.
Notice in Luke it says when you see the surrounding of Jerusalem know that the desolation is near. The surrounding is the sign to let you know the abomination is about to come to pass. When the temple was destroyed in 70 AD the abomination never happened.
Nobody stood in the temple and claimed to be God during that conflict.
It did not happen before Christ, it did not happen during Christ, and it did not happen in 70 AD.
The abomination that causes desolation is not the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies, the abomination is caused by the antichrist who has not come to power yet.
Notice in Luke it says when you see the surrounding of Jerusalem know that the desolation is near. The surrounding is the sign to let you know the abomination is about to come to pass. When the temple was destroyed in 70 AD the abomination never happened.
Nobody stood in the temple and claimed to be God during that conflict.
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GaryA
Guest
The key is --- not getting drawn into word-play games that destroy the context...
The key is --- having a "proper balance" between looking at the trees and looking at the forest...
The key is --- allowing the scriptures to "speak to you", instead of trying to force-fit a "figured-out" meaning...
[h=2]Re: When does the rapture occur?[/h][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Matt 24:36 [/FONT]But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]37[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.…
Is this to simple to understand?[/FONT]
Matt 24:36 [/FONT]But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]37[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.…
Is this to simple to understand?[/FONT]
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GaryA
Guest
I refer you again to the following:
study - Olivet Discourse ; post #91
study - Olivet Discourse ; post #175
study - Olivet Discourse ; post #192
The question as the disciples inquired puts "of thy coming" and "of the end of the world" together as one 'event'.
I believe that Christ intended "the end" with a little bit of a larger scope than that.
So then -- I do not believe that we should define "the end" as Judgment Day. Perhaps, it would be better to call that "the final end" or something...?
Based on the context of Matthew 24, and with specific regard to the phrase 'and then shall the end come' - I believe that "the end" ( as Christ intended ) actually puts it between [ the end of ] the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ.
I believe that Revelation 14:6 is "extra-contextual" to Matthew 24:14.
Watcher,
Let's start at the end and work backwards. Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
Daniel is to receive his inheritance "AT THE END OF DAYS." The END OF DAYS is 1,335 days from the taking away of the daily sacrifices and 45 days after the Abomination of Desolation is set up. Did the world end in AD 70?? I don't think so. Did Daniel receive his inheritance already?
Christ invoked the Abomination of Desolation as spoken of by Daniel in Mat 24:15. In the above final chapter and final three verses, Daniel discusses the AoD and gives a timeline. There were no 1,290 days from the taking away of the sacrifice until the Abomination was set up circa AD 70. The Romans surrounded the city in AD 68 and broke through in AD 70. The temple was burned, the daily sacrifices ceased and there was no temple any longer to set up the Abomination.
Here is the command to "WAIT" again. This patience and faith and waiting theme is found throughout the NT as it relates to the return of Christ. Why, because a false God will appear first, just as told by Paul, Jesus and John. So we started at the end of days now lets go back in time *future to us."
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Ask yourself, has the above happened? Did it occur circa AD 70? Were the people of Israel delivered in AD 67-73? Heck no!!! They will killed and scattered. They were NOT delivered. There was no resurrection back then, none awoke to eternal life. AD 70 was not the TIME OF THE END, nor was it a TIME OF DELIVERANCE. Thus, this DID NOT happen in AD 70.
Thus all of Daniel 12 is future. Within Daniel 12 the Abomination of Desolation is discussed with a timeline given that does not fit any past event. Daniel states unequivocally:
there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time...
Thus, this time of trouble has not happened yet. If it had happened in AD 67-73 that would mean no nation will ever endure trouble as great as Israel endured in AD 70. Further, the rest of the verse states this:
And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
Were DANIEL'S PEOPLE DELIVERED IN AD 67-73? NOOOOOO!!!!!!
Jesus invoked this AoD in Mat 24:15. After invoking the AoD which I just showed is future, Jesus speaks of a "time to flee" and to "flee fast."
Luke 21:24 speaks of surrounding armies that cause those to flee. Mat 24:15 speak of a detestable AoD which cause those to flee. AD 70 was the beginning of the "Time of Gentiles trampling the Holy City." This trampling is on-going. It has not ended.
AD 70 was a time of punishment - not deliverance. When Christ returns He defeats Israel's enemies and restores her. This is clear from Dan 12, Zech 13-14 and many other OT passages. Israel will be brought to her knees again just prior to her rescue and salvation.
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GaryA
Guest
The key is --- not getting drawn into word-play games that destroy the context...
The key is --- having a "proper balance" between looking at the trees and looking at the forest...
The key is --- allowing the scriptures to "speak to you", instead of trying to force-fit a "figured-out" meaning...
Exactly. Thank you.
You are looking at Luke 21 as a precise parallel passage to Mat and Mark. It is NOT. Luke discusses events leading up to and including the AD 67-73 events up through verse 24. Luke discusses the martyrdom of many of the disciples, Peter and Paul included, which precede the destruction of the Temple. Some indeed were put to death and they were hated for His name's sake.
When did the "Time of the Gentiles" begin, the trampling of the Holy City?
ANSWER: At least by AD 70 and one could argue long before that
How long will Jerusalem be trampled?
ANSWER: Until the Time of Gentiles is fulfilled.
This is still happening and continues to this day. Jerusalem is broken into 4 quarters; Jewish, Islamic, Christian and Armenian. A despicable and pagan mosque sits on the Temple Mount. The time of Gentiles therefore is on-going.
After Luke 21:24, Luke jumps to the SIGNS preceding the return of Christ without discussing anything about the Tribulation era which immediately precedes those signs. Luke 17:26-37 parallels Mat 24:15-51. If you want to find parallels for the time leading up to the appearance of Christ between Luke's account and Matthew's account you are looking in the wrong place. Instead look here.
Mat 24:
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Luke 17:
23 And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
_____________________________________________________________________
Mat 24:
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
Luke 17:
30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
____________________________________________________________________
Mat 24:
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Luke 17:
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
_____________________________________________________________________
Then this is my favorite. Both accounts tell us WHERE.
Mat 24:
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Luke 17:
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
___________________________________________________________
So obviously, there is a big battle to come, BIGGER THAN ANY BATTLE THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN and Israel will be the focal point. This is the battle Daniel discusses in Dan 11 leading up to Dan 12. It is during this battle that the AoD will be set up.
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Now - think...
Think - Armageddon
YES. YOU HAVE IT. ARMAGEDDON not the Jewish Rebellion of AD 67-73.
Psa 110:
1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries.
You see, God the Father gives His Son a direct command. The SON will not disobey!!!
QUESTION: Where is Christ to stay until He returns?
ANSWER: At the Right Hand of the Father.
QUESTION: For how long is Christ to remain there?
ANSWER: Until the Father makes the Son's enemies His footstool
Sorry, to some of you. No Pre-Trib Rapture return is possible.
1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries.
You see, God the Father gives His Son a direct command. The SON will not disobey!!!
QUESTION: Where is Christ to stay until He returns?
ANSWER: At the Right Hand of the Father.
QUESTION: For how long is Christ to remain there?
ANSWER: Until the Father makes the Son's enemies His footstool
Sorry, to some of you. No Pre-Trib Rapture return is possible
.
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Fishbait
Guest
Matthew 24:5-8 gives us some important clues so we can discern the approach of the end times, “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.”
An increase in false messiahs, an increase in warfare, and increases in famines, plagues, and natural disasters—these are signs of the end times. In this passage, though, we are given a warning: we are not to be deceived, because these events are only the beginning of birth pains; the end is still to come.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/signs-end-times.html#ixzz3BK31Ltyf
Daniel indeed shall receive his inheritance at the end of days...BUT the text did not specifically said that the end of 1335 is the end of days...
Things not clear in these verses:
1. It did not say, what will occur after 1290 days...It just says there shall be 1290 days after the AoD
2. the term "Blessed who waits" does not automatically mean salvation at the end of days...How about those dead believers who not able to wait the 1335 days??? Are they not blessed?
3. Blessed may mean...to be able to survive the AD 68-73 war, can be considered blessed.
Can you call those who survived the slaughter of Ad 70 till the end of war in 73 blessed?
Were there 1290 days or more between AD70-AD73?
Let me ask, how you understand Daniel 12...
1. Is this a time of trouble or deliverance?
2. Is the time of trouble the same day as the resurrection?
3. If your answer to no. 2 is NO, Then there is a gap between time of trouble and Resurrection. DID IT SAY HOW LONG?NO.
Let me tell you something about the AD70:
1. It was a time of trouble
2. It was also a time of Deliverance to those who believe (those who's names are written in the book of life), why? Because they believed the Lord prophetic Words, and were able to flee/escape the slaughter.
The same about those who were marked were not hurt during the Baylonian conquest Eze 9:6
3. Resurrection is still future.
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GaryA
Guest
Look carefully at what is said in the following verses:
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mark 13:
[SUP]19[/SUP] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Daniel 12:
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Notice that, in Daniel 12:1, there is no mention of an 'after'.
Why is there not a "nor ever shall be" / "neither shall be" in Daniel 12:1 ?
"Think about it..."
Matthew 24:
[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mark 13:
[SUP]19[/SUP] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Daniel 12:
[SUP]1[/SUP] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Notice that, in Daniel 12:1, there is no mention of an 'after'.
Why is there not a "nor ever shall be" / "neither shall be" in Daniel 12:1 ?
"Think about it..."
S
sparkman
Guest
This view of God is called open theism and it is a heresy in my opinion. It denies that God is Creator and stands apart from the creation. He created time and space, and stands apart from it. Being limited by time and space is a characteristic of being created, and God is not created...he is the Creator.
Scripture speaks of God changing his mind, as if God does not know the end from the beginning..but this is an anthropomorphism. God knows the details of the future in detail.
Is 46: 9“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Here are two good articles on the subject:
What is open theism?
Does God know the future?
Watcher,
There were no survivors who made it through Masada. Study the conflict of AD 67-73. After the Temple was destroyed on Aug 20 AD 70 (9 Av 3830), the Jews living in Jerusalem and Judea scattered. Incidentally, 9 Av was the exact day the first temple was also destroyed. This date, 9 Av 3830 is one of the best known dates on the Jewish calendar.
Following the destruction of the Temple the Romans continued their extermination of the Jews. They moved south and destroyed the fortress of Herodian. They killed Jews wherever they found them. The last bastion of Jewish occupied territory and last coherent Jewish civilization was of course Masada. Masada was breached and all Jews were found dead on April 16, AD 73. The time lapse from August 20, 0070 to April 16, 0073 was only 988 days.
No, do the math. Even if you go back to the start of Titus' siege and attacks shortly after passover, this famous date was 17 Tammuz, you only add a couple of months to the 988 days, not the 302 days you need.
1. Thus there is no connection to 1,290 or 1,335 days back in AD 70-73.
2. There was no Abomination in the Temple in AD 70 which caused the desolation. It was the destruction of the temple which caused desolation.
3. There was no deliverance in AD 70 or AD 73. We know the Jewish people would continue to endure hardship, persecution and death all the way up to and including Hitler. There would be nothing which could even be considered a deliverance until 1948. You had a time of trouble and a scattering. If you study the OT prophesies you see that at the end, there will be a time of trouble with a deliverance after Israel has been restored and once restored, they will never be scattered again. Thus nothing in the past fits Daniel 12 where as we know the Abomination of Desolation is mentioned in a time frame that contains the end.
Thus, the events of AD 67-73 do not fit Daniel's Abomination of Desolation and since they don't fit Daniel Chapter 11-12, they cannot fit Jesus' account of Mat 24:15.
There were no survivors who made it through Masada. Study the conflict of AD 67-73. After the Temple was destroyed on Aug 20 AD 70 (9 Av 3830), the Jews living in Jerusalem and Judea scattered. Incidentally, 9 Av was the exact day the first temple was also destroyed. This date, 9 Av 3830 is one of the best known dates on the Jewish calendar.
Following the destruction of the Temple the Romans continued their extermination of the Jews. They moved south and destroyed the fortress of Herodian. They killed Jews wherever they found them. The last bastion of Jewish occupied territory and last coherent Jewish civilization was of course Masada. Masada was breached and all Jews were found dead on April 16, AD 73. The time lapse from August 20, 0070 to April 16, 0073 was only 988 days.
No, do the math. Even if you go back to the start of Titus' siege and attacks shortly after passover, this famous date was 17 Tammuz, you only add a couple of months to the 988 days, not the 302 days you need.
1. Thus there is no connection to 1,290 or 1,335 days back in AD 70-73.
2. There was no Abomination in the Temple in AD 70 which caused the desolation. It was the destruction of the temple which caused desolation.
3. There was no deliverance in AD 70 or AD 73. We know the Jewish people would continue to endure hardship, persecution and death all the way up to and including Hitler. There would be nothing which could even be considered a deliverance until 1948. You had a time of trouble and a scattering. If you study the OT prophesies you see that at the end, there will be a time of trouble with a deliverance after Israel has been restored and once restored, they will never be scattered again. Thus nothing in the past fits Daniel 12 where as we know the Abomination of Desolation is mentioned in a time frame that contains the end.
Thus, the events of AD 67-73 do not fit Daniel's Abomination of Desolation and since they don't fit Daniel Chapter 11-12, they cannot fit Jesus' account of Mat 24:15.
If we are going to based our calculation on those dates:
20 august 0070 - 16 Apr 0073
Definitely you would not get the 1290 days...
From Wikipedia The siege of Masada was among the final accords of the Great Jewish Revolt, occurring from 73 to 74 CE on a large hilltop in current-day Israel.
Date
Late 72 – early 73 (traditional date)
Late 73 – early 74 CE (proposed date)
From Wikipedia
The First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), sometimes called The Great Revolt
From the same source:
first Jewish roman war ended in 73, as a traditional date:
there is however a proposed date of late 73 or early 74:
The Question now is what really is the starting date and the end Dates.... Which record is precise to calculate the days with precision.
Now, if you are going to base your calculation on the first day of siege which is at Passover of 70 AD and end it late 73 or early 74, you will have enough days to fill in the 1290 days.
Based on your reference dates, there are no connection, however should the date referenced to early 70's and finished late 73...You will have enough days to cover the 1290 or 1335
Ezekiel did not mentioned the abomination of Desolation when he prophesied about the destruction of the 1st Temple, Also the Babylonian and the destruction of the 1st temple that made the land desolate;
BUT The Lord said it is because of their abomination that the Land was made desolate:
Eze 33:29 Then shall they know that I am the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed.
There were multiple abominations:
1. the abominations committed by the children of Israel
2. the foreigner entered the sanctuary
The fact that the Jewish people remains up until this day proved that there was DELIVERANCE during those great revolt. IF there was no deliverance John would have not survived...
Matthew 24 fits the account of:
Daniel 9:27 regarding the last week and the taking away of sacrifices and the destruction of sanctuary
Daniel 12:1 about the time of trouble
Daniel 11 has nothing to do with it...was already fulfilled:
You are probably overwhelmed by the words from 2 thess 2:3-4 about the man of Sin that you might have overlooked the historical events:
Here a sample fulfilled prophecy about Tyrus (the area of Lebanon)
Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
from your statement above: "You had a time of trouble and a scattering. If you study the OT prophesies you see that at the end, there will be a time of trouble with a deliverance after Israel has been restored and once restored, they will never be scattered again."
Daniel 12 talks about time of trouble, If this is future (as you believed) then you are talking of Future scattering and future DESOLATION and not the scattering of AD 66-73... (that will give you another scattering and 3rd gathering)
I would like to know how you understand Daniel 12:
1. Do you understand the trouble to be the same time as the resurrection?
2. if No, how long is the period between trouble and the resurrection: