Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Nautilus]

You are incorrect. My husband and I tried an experiment. We purchased red seedless grapes and "pressed" them through a juicer, strained out the big pieces (lees), boiled the juice, and sealed it in "seal a meal" bags and froze the "pressed" juice. Fermented (alcoholic) juice will not freeze, but if the juice contains no alcohol, it will freeze...which is similar to frozen juice concentrates. We kept those bags of "pressed" juice in the freezer for almost 2 years and they froze solid...which means there was ZERO alcohol in them.

When we "thawed" those bags of "pressed" grapes the mixture was extremely thick and super sweet.

You realize wine freezes right? So does beer?

 

[Linda70]

The ethanol alcohol content does not freeze...the WATER content is what freezes. However, a conventional freezer will not freeze any ethanol alcohol. If your freezer goes down to -114°C (-173°F), maybe then your beer or wine will freeze.

 

[Ukorin]

You realize wine freezes right? So does beer?

Anyone who has poured a glass, and recognized that it was not needed, has likely put it in the freezer.
If the drink is under 30 proof alcohol (15%, which is really really strong), it freezes (assuming your freezer gets to 20°F).

Wine is usually 6-12% alcohol by volume. Day old wine is likely less than 2%, unless it is rushed by adding extra yeast and sugars to what is naturally there. 2% alcohol freezes 29-30°.

 

[Ukorin]

The ethanol alcohol content does not freeze...the WATER content is what freezes. However, a conventional freezer will not freeze any ethanol alcohol. If your freezer goes down to -114°C (-173°F), maybe then your beer or wine will freeze.

It does not seperate. The mixture of water and alcohol changes the freezing point, and they do not freeze separately once they are mixed.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

I'll go with Martin Luther on this subject.

Martin Luther's Sermon on Soberness and Moderation against Gluttony and Drunkenness, 1 Peter 4:7-11, May 18, 1539:

"God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer: he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control."

Martin Luther had a wine cellar and brewed his own beer. The story goes that he popped a keg of beer to begin Bible study, and the session wasn't over until the keg was empty.

Incidentally, I'm drinking a Guinness Extra Stout at the moment. It's making reading this entire thread and some of the nonsense in it somewhat tolerable.

I've had so many people tell me this about Martin Luther, yet none have been able to give reference except a date. I have several of Luther's writings, yet this is not among them.

When I search online for this, the earliest writings I can find is a book written in 2005 that mentions these as being by Luther, with no reference to substantiate the claim.

I believe, therefore, that the above quote was not by Luther, but was fabricated by someone more recently to justify the consumption of alcoholic beverages.

 

[posthuman]

It does not seperate. The mixture of water and alcohol changes the freezing point, and they do not freeze separately once they are mixed.

wine is a mixture, not a suspension, true, but crystallization is complex, and if you keep siphoning liquid off as it thaws, you can produce a smaller amount of wine/beer with higher alcohol content and discard *mostly* water ice. this is called "freeze distillation"
where i'm from people commonly make what they call "apple jack" like this from cider.

just a technical point

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Of interest, I did find the whole sermon, allegedly by Luther.

Yet, the very paragraph tht particular quote was taken out of leaves me doubting it was actually written by Luther. Why? Because Luther knew the Bible, yet the author of the "sermon" did not.

Here is the entire paragraph...

"God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer; he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control. Even though we do not have a command of God, we should nevertheless be ashamed that we are thus spit upon by other peoples. If you want to be a Christian, do not argue in this way: nobody reproaches me, therefore God does not reproach me. So it has been from the time of Noah (Gen. 9:21). And so it was with the Sodomites, who wanted to rape the angels; they were all so drunk they could not find the door (Gen. 19:11). Sodom and Gomorrah perished because of a flood of drunkenness; this vice was punished. God does not tolerate such confusion and inordinate use of his creatures [i.e., food and drink]."

They were so drunk they couldn't find the door? That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says they were struck with blindness.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of drunkenness? Again, not what the Bible says.

Obviously, someone assigned Luther's name to a work that was not Luthers at all.

 

[lisa79]

While it is true that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions, a person who is leading another to stumble will not be found guitless before the Lord. They will have to account for their lack of love.

Peter 2:8 "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

You still do not understand that you are judging God.

 

[BradC]

In this compilation, I would like to prove that usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world. Let's begin by acknowledging just a few reputable sources. The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.

1. Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)
2. Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)
3. Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)
4. Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."
5. The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."
6. Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)
7. Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)
8. John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)
9. Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)
10. Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)
11. Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)
12. J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)
13. W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)
14. Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)
15. J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)
16. Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)
17. E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)
18. Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)
19. John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."
20. J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)
21. Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)
22. James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)
23. Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)
24. S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)
25. John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)
26. Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)
27. H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)
28. Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)
29. Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)
30. Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE." by Jeff Belknap

 

[Jason0047]

Peter 2:8 "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

You still do not understand that you are judging God.

Yes, but see, you are doing the same thing. You are judging my God who is good. You don't have to say any words. Your defense of a God who does wrong is all that is needed on your part. I know God is good and that He cannot do evil. It's impossible. For can you explain the morality of Jesus pushing a drug upon a people that were either tipsy and or drunk?

In other words, I am judging a false interpretation people have about God that allows folks to think that God can do evil. I have no problem with the real Lord of the Holy Scriptures because He is always good.

 

[Jason0047]

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It makes perfect sense. According to your logic not only was Noah, who btw got drunk and exposed himself to 2/3 of the entire worlds population, was a horrible person and set a bad example....worse than that God allowed this example into his word and exposed ever man to the truth that you are refusing to see.

A. The Beginning and the End.

Have you ever heard of the "law of first mention" in the Bible? Well, if you haven't, the "law of first mention" is said to be the principle that requires one to go to that portion of the Scriptures where a particular truth is mentioned for the first time and to study the first occurrence of the same in order to get the fundamental inherent meaning of that truth. When we thus see the first appearance, which is usually in the simplest form, we can then examine the topic of that truth in other portions of the Word that were given later. The fundamental concept in the first occurrence remains dominant as a rule, and colors all later additions to that topical truth. In view of this fact, it becomes imperative that we understand the law of first mention.

The book of Genesis has Properly been called the "seed-plot" of the Bible. The word, Genesis, comes from the Greek expression which in its verbal form means to begin, or, to come into existence. This first book of the revelation of God is properly called, therefore, "the book of beginnings."

Now, I do not want to claim this as a 100% Biblical fact (or state that without a doubt that this is what happened for sure) But we learn in Leviticus 20:11 that if one lieth with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness. Why is this important? Well, most people believe that Noah got drunk in Genesis 9 and his sons had to cover his father's nakedness. So here in the story of Noah's drunkenness in Genesis chapter 9, Ham had uncovered his father's nakedness and the result was in cursing Ham's son. Now, ask yourself, why would Noah curse the child of the son for the son's crime? Well, while we do not know for sure, the only reason why this seems plausible is if Ham's son was a product of sin or fornication from Ham having an incestous relationship with Noah's wife (i.e the uncovering of father Noah's nakedness). For is it a coincidence that Noah didn't have any more children with his wife? (Genesis 10:1 KJV)" We do not know for sure what happened; What we do know is that Noah drank wine that lead to drunkenness which resulted in Ham's child Canaan ending up being cursed.

However, what is interesting is if we were to look in Scripture at other related places in the Bible we would see similar instances taking place. For example: We see Lot's daughters enticing their father with wine and they fornicated with him.

This is also a parallel of what is happening now and what will continue take place all the way up to the End Times when Jesus returns, too. For Mystery Babylon (The spiritual harlot church) who is described as a woman has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication (Revelation 14:8 KJV); And this woman is drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Revelation 17:6 KJV).

This is important to note that it is the nations that fornicated with this spiritual harlot who is drunk with the blood of the saints because the result of the sin of Noah's son Ham had caused a ripple effect of sin into his future generation of children from his fornication with his own mother (which resulted in Canaan and the Canaanites); And the Israelites were later commanded by God to destroy the Canaanites (Deuteronomy 20:17 KJV) for their pagan worship of other gods (Deuteronomy 7:3–5) (Deuteronomy 12:2,3) (Exodus 34:12,13); For these Canaanites were obviously the offspring of Canaan which were the result of an act of sin.

The same thing resulted from the drunkenness and fornication that was caused by Lot's daughters. One of their sons, whose name was Moab, had ended up being the father of the Moabites (Genesis 19:37 KJV) and at times, the Moabites were great enemies of Israel. For it was the Balak, king of Moab, who hired Balaam the prophet, hoping that he could curse Israel (Numbers 22-25). It was Eglon, king of Moab, who oppressed Israel in the days of the Judges (Judges 3:12-30). During the time of Saul and David, Israel established a firm control over Moab, but later kings of Israel were not always able to keep them under Israeli dominance; And thus, they were a thorn in the side of God's people.[/TD]
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[Brother_Don]

alcoholism can be a deadly disease, it kills spiritually, and physically. The disease is passed down from generation to generation, i know this because i was a victim of this disease, its not that we are weak. i see some calling one that can't drink weak, that can be a problem to the alcoholic, making him feel inferior(less than) a man or woman that can have one or two, then be done. in my opinion an alcoholic that doesn't give into the viper of drinking, is strong. i'll end with the verses, Proverbs 23:29-33, Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without a cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that terry long at the wine; they that go seek mixed wine. look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent; and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange woman, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

 

[JackH]

I believe, therefore, that the above quote was not by Luther, but was fabricated by someone more recently to justify the consumption of alcoholic beverages.

I don't particularly care whether Luther said exactly that in one speech or not.

The evidence is clear what Luther's position was regarding the consumption of alcohol.

In an article at Wikipedia entitled "Christian views on alcohol" it says under the subtitle "Reformation" that:

"As the Protestant Reformation began, the Reformers from Luther and Calvin to Zwingli and Knox strongly supported the enjoyment of wine as a biblical blessing,[105] and Calvin's annual salary in Geneva included seven barrels of wine."

My point is that I am much more interested in what people like Luther and Calvin thought about drinking alcoholic beverages than I am what Jason0047 thinks.

Christian views on alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BradC]

Why do Christians get fat? It's not healthy. Do you eat only bread and drink only wine? Christians don't need a reason to eat and drink the various things God has given us. He only needs to do them thoughtfully.

All things need to be done in moderation.

Some Christians can't get through a day without a glass of wine or two or in some cases something a little stronger that not only takes the edge off but knocks them off the edge. That's the bottle they hide where no one will look for it and they have that for emergencies. I would love to share a story with you about a visit that (3) young Bible school student made to Europe and what happen at a meeting at one of the Bible Seminaries in Germany. It will provoke your thinking.

 

[lisa79]

Yes, but see, you are doing the same thing. You are judging my God who is good. You don't have to say any words. Your defense of a God who does wrong is all that is needed on your part. I know God is good and that He cannot do evil. It's impossible. For can you explain the morality of Jesus pushing a drug upon a people that were either tipsy and or drunk?

In other words, I am judging a false interpretation people have about God that allows folks to think that God can do evil. I have no problem with the real Lord of the Holy Scriptures because He is always good.

You have no concept for understanding. Thw wine was good! Only God is good. But you are trying to convince me that is a lie. Apparently "your God" (whom you are imiating) points fingers, makes accusations, and can not see good but will speak days in the presence of my God trying convince people of a lie.
My God is Jesus Christ who came not to judge the world but to save it.
Who is leading you?

 

[lisa79]

Yes, but see, you are doing the same thing. You are judging my God who is good. You don't have to say any words. Your defense of a God who does wrong is all that is needed on your part. I know God is good and that He cannot do evil. It's impossible. For can you explain the morality of Jesus pushing a drug upon a people that were either tipsy and or drunk?

In other words, I am judging a false interpretation people have about God that allows folks to think that God can do evil. I have no problem with the real Lord of the Holy Scriptures because He is always good.

Furthermore, I am simply trying to get you to see the danger in this if you are wrong. I am not juding I am simply asking you to stop juding the blood which covers me you are judging yourself.. Please open your eyes.. I care nothing of being right. I care only to be a vessel that the Lord use me to show others Gods love not His judgment....if you are in Christ and if He abides in you there is no condemnation in you. I am a sinner but I had to know pain to be able to feel joy... the pain is not evil...it washed my eyes with tears from my soul and I see.

 

[lisa79]

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Yet you say He is wrong?

 

[The_highwayman]

Yes, but see, you are doing the same thing. You are judging my God who is good. You don't have to say any words. Your defense of a God who does wrong is all that is needed on your part. I know God is good and that He cannot do evil. It's impossible. For can you explain the morality of Jesus pushing a drug upon a people that were either tipsy and or drunk?

In other words, I am judging a false interpretation people have about God that allows folks to think that God can do evil. I have no problem with the real Lord of the Holy Scriptures because He is always good.

God does not do evil Jason, but he allows it to happen and as Lisa already showed you he created Evil.

 

[lisa79]

He didn't push a drug to drunk people! Maybe He was testing them ( maybe He is testing you) to see who was sober enough to realize the WINE WAS GOOD. So few .....the wine was the blood that flows through the vine...get connected please. God is good do not judge yourself by your idle words. Please stop and look!

 

[Jason0047]

You have no concept for understanding. Thw wine was good! Only God is good. But you are trying to convince me that is a lie. Apparently "your God" (whom you are imiating) points fingers, makes accusations, and can not see good but will speak days in the presence of my God trying convince people of a lie.
My God is Jesus Christ who came not to judge the world but to save it.
Who is leading you?

While a Christian has a liberty in Christ to drink moderately and soberly in the privacy of their own home, you go against the Bible's clear warnings about alcohol and how it was used in Biblical times. For you paint alcohol into a favorable light as if it was good. Is there a personal reason why you are defending alcohol? But what about all the verses that warn against the dangers of alcohol? Do you just write them off and ignore them? What about all the destruction or the fruits of alcohol drinking today? Do you just write that off, too? Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (And vise versa). How is alcohol bringing forth good fruit today? Do you think alcohol drinking does more harm or good today? I see more people hurt by alcohol than I do in people being blessed by it. I am sorry, it is just a reality you are simply ignoring.

As for morality and telling others what is wrong and right. God is not immoral. If you see a person is raped down the street, you know it is not wrong to speak out against such an evil. For surely speaking against serial killers is not wrong. And speaking against drunkards or the dangers of alcoholism is not wrong. Right? For are you for alcoholics slipping back into alcoholism? Because that is what you are promoting when you say that Jesus created a drug that would influence people into being anti-sober (Which is a direct violation of Scripture). See, your position says to the alcoholic that it is okay to drink (Even if it might be bad for them). So how exactly is your version of the wine good if the Bible warns against it and life teaches us that it mostly destroys lives? Please tell me how that is loving and good? Also, is not speaking out against evil lead people to repent? Can you be forgiven and not repent? See that is what preaching against evil and pointing people to Jesus Christ is all about. For if there is no message or preach against sin and repentance in accepting Jesus, then there is no forgiveness. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). For who was more justified in the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? The Tax Collector who cried out to have mercy for his transgressions or the Pharisee who thought he was better than others (such as the Tax Collector) (See Luke 18:9-14).