Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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You can't prove that and for good reason, its not true. Its one thing to claim that in some places it may be alcoholic but to claim that every instance reveals a flaw in your knowledge.
Must admit that is the first time I have heard anyone say all is alcoholic. Pretty big call when History says otherwise, tradition says otherwise. Context says otherwise sometimes not always. anyway I have proved nothing with what I just said, so Don't expect you to agree, nor can I be bothered putting together the facts so Ill leave it alone.
sufficed to say, "I disagree".
Must admit that is the first time I have heard anyone say all is alcoholic. Pretty big call when History says otherwise, tradition says otherwise. Context says otherwise sometimes not always. anyway I have proved nothing with what I just said, so Don't expect you to agree, nor can I be bothered putting together the facts so Ill leave it alone.
sufficed to say, "I disagree".
L
Lets take it to the Word. These are the facts.
Only God is good. (Luke 18:19)
The wine was good and it was saved for last. (John 2:10)
He told them to drink his blood (the wine) in rememberance of Him (Matt 26:28)
He was offered vinegar twice. He tasted the gall (bitterness) and didnt consume it. (Thank God that he has no bitterness in Him) The third time the vinegar (it was wine they were dying and the "law" permits it but no body wants to make it sound like a good time.) was talked about so that it would be fullfilled HE DID DRINK.
The last thing he drank was vinegar (THIS IS IMPORTANT) with no gall [bitternes (psamls 69:21)] He asked for it...."..saying I thirst (so that it would be fullifed)" John 19:22
Sealing the old covenent.
The perfect blend is the miracle...the alcohol was a symbol of power.
He was setting the stage.
He fed it to them when they were already well drunk to see who noticed the best was last.
*Spirit lead
Only God is good. (Luke 18:19)
The wine was good and it was saved for last. (John 2:10)
He told them to drink his blood (the wine) in rememberance of Him (Matt 26:28)
He was offered vinegar twice. He tasted the gall (bitterness) and didnt consume it. (Thank God that he has no bitterness in Him) The third time the vinegar (it was wine they were dying and the "law" permits it but no body wants to make it sound like a good time.) was talked about so that it would be fullfilled HE DID DRINK.
The last thing he drank was vinegar (THIS IS IMPORTANT) with no gall [bitternes (psamls 69:21)] He asked for it...."..saying I thirst (so that it would be fullifed)" John 19:22
Sealing the old covenent.
The perfect blend is the miracle...the alcohol was a symbol of power.
He was setting the stage.
He fed it to them when they were already well drunk to see who noticed the best was last.
*Spirit lead
L
Wrong. All grape juice will naturally ferment following pressing. That isn't even a questionable aspect of science. It is readily visible.
History nor tradition says otherwise - only the uninformed do.
This is not up for debate. Yeast naturally exist in the air and on grape skins. The minute your press the grapes, the juices are exposed to yeast and they begin fermenting.
History nor tradition says otherwise - only the uninformed do.
This is not up for debate. Yeast naturally exist in the air and on grape skins. The minute your press the grapes, the juices are exposed to yeast and they begin fermenting.
really? Is it alcohol the second you press it? no.
Just because a fermenting process begins does not make it alcohol then and there does it?
On top of that they had ways to slow the process down you do know that right?
They had a number of ways to slow the fermenting process down. One was to bottle it in the skins with as little air as possible. The other was a process in which they made it into a gell like substance in which the water content was lowered by way of heating.
These would slow the fermenting process. Thus the reason that new wine freshly pressed was better then older wine even when the process had been slowed.
As you could imagine. Fresh pressed Grapes will taste better than Grapes that have been stored or gelled for preservation.
Just because a fermenting process begins does not make it alcohol then and there does it?
On top of that they had ways to slow the process down you do know that right?
They had a number of ways to slow the fermenting process down. One was to bottle it in the skins with as little air as possible. The other was a process in which they made it into a gell like substance in which the water content was lowered by way of heating.
These would slow the fermenting process. Thus the reason that new wine freshly pressed was better then older wine even when the process had been slowed.
As you could imagine. Fresh pressed Grapes will taste better than Grapes that have been stored or gelled for preservation.
L
I'm sorry you can not see the truth. Personally ......I'm not much on alcohol so it doesn't matter to me if it was powerful enough to have an affect in a literal sense. All I can tell you is that I prayed in for the spirit of God to fill me and my cup ran over as words that I posted. Take what you want but I won't ever judge this...its a dangerous topic....I'm leaving this discussion as to not feed it. God bless.
L
It begins producing alcohol and an exponetial rate, yes.
Well, yes, it does. It becomes alcohol or vinegar.
Under the most extreme conditions, they might have stretched a 1 day process into a one month process.
Wrong, using little air produces alcohol.
Once you pressed grapes, you'd have like half a day before they turned into wine.
Well, yes, it does. It becomes alcohol or vinegar.
Under the most extreme conditions, they might have stretched a 1 day process into a one month process.
Wrong, using little air produces alcohol.
Once you pressed grapes, you'd have like half a day before they turned into wine.
L
You are incorrect. My husband and I tried an experiment. We purchased red seedless grapes and "pressed" them through a juicer, strained out the big pieces (lees), boiled the juice, and sealed it in "seal a meal" bags and froze the "pressed" juice. Fermented (alcoholic) juice will not freeze, but if the juice contains no alcohol, it will freeze...which is similar to frozen juice concentrates. We kept those bags of "pressed" juice in the freezer for almost 2 years and they froze solid...which means there was ZERO alcohol in them.
When we "thawed" those bags of "pressed" grapes the mixture was extremely thick and super sweet.
When we "thawed" those bags of "pressed" grapes the mixture was extremely thick and super sweet.
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L
This sounds like something you ripped off the internet. However, as a scientist, let's go forward!
That's all weird. Ancient wine was made by regular grapes.
Okay, that's call pastuerization which was invented in the late 19th century. So, you are saying nothing.
Alcohol does freeze. However, if you press grapes, boil the juice and put it in the freezer, you will very little alcohol. Hardly a process of the ancient world.
No carp!
If I put a fish outside (like they had to back then) and another in my freezer, the one in my modern freezer will not spoil. What is your point, exactly?
That's all weird. Ancient wine was made by regular grapes.
Okay, that's call pastuerization which was invented in the late 19th century. So, you are saying nothing.
Alcohol does freeze. However, if you press grapes, boil the juice and put it in the freezer, you will very little alcohol. Hardly a process of the ancient world.
No carp!
If I put a fish outside (like they had to back then) and another in my freezer, the one in my modern freezer will not spoil. What is your point, exactly?
L
My point is: Your responses on this thread only proves that you are trying to justify your use of alcoholic beverages. You will go to any extreme to do so. Your reasons are self-serving...you are simply pleasing yourself and really don't care if what you do causes someone else to be offended or stumble.
First, I do not drink alcoholic beverages as a rule. It has always been my understanding that it is fine to drink "strong drink or wine." It is even recommended for one who is truly down hearted.
Wine or liquor will not defile or harm a person's record as long as it does not control the person. Personally I find what is called social drinking a total waste of time and not social by a long shot.
When reading in the Word in the Hebrew versions, the miracle at the wedding makes reference to wine only, not new wine, but this could easily be a mistranslation.
Now, as for new wine, I do not find anywhere that it is non-alcoholic, but it could be. So much has been lost by expert scholars over the centuries in the name of improving data and knowledge no one may say with certainty that all the words from the Hebrew of the Word, Itself, are correct. This is why we rely on the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was the Branch, a Nazar, and from Nazereth, but He was accused of being a drunkard and a glutton by the hypocrites.
I would never even consider faultying our Lord, should He have drunk fermented wine, but I cannot discount, nor would I that He did. I know nothing outside His Body defiled Him in any manner, for He was perfect for us all.
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.