Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[phil112]

*is that were u live in houston, but I would like it, but don't agree that love is trouble,

I dunno, jkalyna, posthuman may be on to something there......Me and two ex wives would agree with him.

 

[jkalyna]

I dunno, jkalyna, posthuman may be on to something there......Me and two ex wives would agree with him.

lol maybe he was sipping on something. he haw jk think I'll put the sharpened sword away for tonite, you need it in the bible forums, never come here without it. Good nite folks, don't sip on anything before bed. lol.*

 

[lisa79]

I am sorry, that just doesn't make sense. I am telling you a moral action that is endorsed by the Bible itself. For the Bible says that wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging and it can bite you like a serpent. The Bible also says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Scriptures also say that we are to be sober minded many times. How exactly is getting tipsy or drunk with alcohol being sober minded? Seeing God inspired men to write His Word, they are the very words of God to us. And seeing God cannot break His own Word and seeing God is good and not evil, I know that the Lord would never do anything bad such as influencing an individual to get drunk. It's just not possible. You might as well say that water is not wet in it's liquid state. I know it is morally wrong for any being to influence another person into drinking so as to get drunk. Certainly God would never do such a thing seeing He is more perfect and righteous than any other being that has ever existed.

It makes perfect sense. According to your logic not only was Noah, who btw got drunk and exposed himself to 2/3 of the entire worlds population, was a horrible person and set a bad example....worse than that God allowed this example into his word and exposed ever man to the truth that you are refusing to see.

 

[Jason0047]

Actually, the Bible does not say Jesus drank the vinegar... only that he tasted it. One can get a taste fo something on one's lips or tongue without actually drinking.

Matter of fact, the Scripture indicates this to be the case. Notice:

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Thanks for this.

 

[lisa79]

I have no problems with Prov 31:6,7. It is practical and it won't effect anyone's judgment or cause one to stumble and it is isolated. I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought it would be helpful. However, that does not give us permission to consume alcoholic beverages, right?

Noah did....got made a point to mention it. There is a time and place for everything.

 

[posthuman]

*is that were u live in houston, but I would like it, but don't agree that love is trouble,

no. i'm from the Appalachians -- hillbilly country

the old rhyme is love made trouble, not is trouble -- for whatever reason, this popped in my head - i memorized it probably 25 years ago. not claiming it's 100% accurate; just thought it was related to the thread

 

[lisa79]

Thanks for this.[/QUOTE.]

If Jesus had drunk that vinegar mixed with gall, there would have been no redemption for us, and we have to know He did not drink it because it was one of the things that had to be done for our salvation, and in order that atonement might be made for our sins.....it was bitter (hence the gall)

He did drink at the end of the crucifixion but he asked for that drink.....he said "I thirst" and he drank.

 

[lisa79]

Is it the spirit leading you of your desire to be right? I am telling you this is not for us, any of us to judge... I dont think you see the bad example you are setting as a Christian condemning people and judging Gods wine...which IS the blood of Christ! ...there is no benefit in this conversation. It will only bring you self condemnation.

 

[Kerry]

Y'all so messed up you don't know what's up or down. People today want their wine, it's a European thing. Most of them allow wine at what age 12. In America there were no drinking age laws and 8 year old's were on the streets drunk. That brought about prohibition. Then it went underground like drugs and only the elite could have wine because they were civilized and Al Capone made millions from it. You can only police the people as much as they will allow it to be policed. If they want alcohol they will get alcohol if they want marijuana they will get marijuana as evidenced by the laws of most states.

Why do Americans want these mind altering drugs. Why do Americans want homo's, why do Americans want sexual immorality.

Because the church has failed, the leaders of the churches have chosen money over the word of God. I meant think for a second. Why is the economy so bad, why is the deficit so large. Why were the twin towers taken down ( an attack on our own soil that has never been done before). God is lifting the hedge off of America in hopes that we will see. But I'm sad to say that we will not, because we love our Homo's and we kill our babies and the murder has rights. God will not and cannot honor this. Obama i know that your minions monitor this site, tell your master to look at the word of God and see if what I said is not true. Obama, you are the first black president of this Country. How will you be remembered, almost impeached. Stand up for the black community and lead this country back to God. You will go down in history as rthe greatest president in modern history and your library will be the most visited of all.

 

[lisa79]

You obviously do not realize that it doesn't take much for an alcholic to relapse. A Christian that they looked up to drinking openly at event where they did not expect any drinking to be present could very easily send a person back into a relapse. In fact, any Christian who has struggled with sin would tell you it doesn't take much to make them fall. But by God's grace and mercy He is there to pick them back up and to help them to walk uprightly in Him. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Works of the devil. Do you think alcholic drinking parties will be in Heaven or in the Eternal New Earth?

Yet ....your life according to you has not been touched by alcoholism?

 

[jkalyna]

Is it the spirit leading you of your desire to be right? I am telling you this is not for us, any of us to judge... I dont think you see the bad example you are setting as a Christian condemning people and judging Gods wine...which IS the blood of Christ! ...there is no benefit in this conversation. It will only bring you self condemnation.

*I agree with you. I'm not going to be enticed into this thread, it's just a dark current and not a light from the lord, thy word is a light unto my path, and a lamp unto my feet. He's trying to get other's to be in agreement with him that he is right, because of self*condemnation, and a very*strong*bondage somewhere in his spirit, of quilt of something that happened once, don't feed him, self pity, it's not a booze party, that hes*against*it's a pity party don't join in. It's the same thing going around in circles.*

 

[Billyd]

First, this was the best wine. Jesus made it. Jesus did not sin. Nowhere in the "Ten Commandments" does it say that thou shalt not drink wine. However, they do say that thou shalt not bear false witness. If the wine were not the best wine, and Jesus were passing it off as wine, he would be bearing false witness of what he had made, and thus sinning against the commandments. If that happened, he would not have been the perfect sacrifice, and we would not have Salvation through him. Since I have Salvation through him, he had to be the perfect sacrifice. Thus he did not bear false witness. Since he did not bear false witness, it WAS the best WINE. IMHO, and supported by the above mathematically sound proof, it was the best, undiluted wine. It was not only fermented, but fermented to perfection. I have read this entire threat, and I see nothing in it that can contradict that.

 

[gotime]

Noah did....got made a point to mention it. There is a time and place for everything.

Correct me If I have misunderstood your point here because it seems you are using Noah as a proof that its ok to drink alcohol at certain times an places. which is a gross misuse of Scripture. because with that logic, Adultery, lying, killing, blasphemy, Idolatry etc are all ok and have their time a place.

Rather it is mentioned because of what his sons did and why one tribe ended up serving another. We do not even know if Noah got drunk on purpose or by accident. we just don't know so to assume its there for a reason other than the text states error.

 

[lisa79]

One final thing to add; since you have stated you'r life has never been touched by alcoholism and I have had direct experience with it in many ways. If an alcoholic saw you drinking wine at a reception and they somehow made you believe it was your fault they stumbled then you have been deceived. Addiction is cunning, baffling and powerful and it does not care if you are a Christian or not.

 

[Kerry]

First of all anything that came from a grape was called wine. Not until prohibition was grape juice separated from the word wine. I don't think that Jesus would turn wine into a intoxicating drink. When most people drink alcohol what is the effect? Paul told Timothy not forsake wine altogether knowing his infinities. Why would Paul say that?

 

[Kerry]

One final thing to add; since you have stated you'r life has never been touched by alcoholism and I have had direct experience with it in many ways. If an alcoholic saw you drinking wine at a reception and they somehow made you believe it was your fault they stumbled then you have been deceived. Addiction is cunning, baffling and powerful and it does not care if you are a Christian or not.

Preach it pretty lady preach it.

 

[gotime]

First, this was the best wine. Jesus made it. Jesus did not sin. Nowhere in the "Ten Commandments" does it say that thou shalt not drink wine. However, they do say that thou shalt not bear false witness. If the wine were not the best wine, and Jesus were passing it off as wine, he would be bearing false witness of what he had made, and thus sinning against the commandments. If that happened, he would not have been the perfect sacrifice, and we would not have Salvation through him. Since I have Salvation through him, he had to be the perfect sacrifice. Thus he did not bear false witness. Since he did not bear false witness, it WAS the best WINE. IMHO, and supported by the above mathematically sound proof, it was the best, undiluted wine. It was not only fermented, but fermented to perfection. I have read this entire threat, and I see nothing in it that can contradict that.

The problem with this logic is its based on an assumption, namely that the best wine has to be alcoholic.

Wine was often simply a term used for pure fresh juice from the Grape at this time also. In this respect older or less fresh wine is of less quality than fresh new wine. fresh is sweeter and purer.

Your point assumes that fermented is used here, yet its just that an assumption based on what?

You might say to me well history says.... but i know that History also says that the Jews used and highly valued fresh wine that was unfermented. Pure from the vine is of the highest quality and taste.

In Fact fermentation of the Grape is a process of leavening in the drink. leaven in the bible is often a symbol of sin.

Do you know how long weddings go for in these times? at least 7 days. Do you think they would have run out near the start or the end? Clearly the end unless this was the worst planned wedding out.

So if they had been drinking alcohol for 4-7 days straight how on earth are they going to know the difference in wine quality? I suppose its possible but unlikely. But if it were pure wine, fermented then the difference would stand out straight away.

The question you need to ask yourself is this. Did Jesus cleanse us with fermented/sin blood or his pure sinless blood?

Because the symbol is of water pots for washing. something to think about. I know I proved nothing here, I leave it to you to study and see if these things are so.

blessings.

 

[Kerry]

The problem with this logic is its based on an assumption, namely that the best wine has to be alcoholic.

Wine was often simply a term used for pure fresh juice from the Grape at this time also. In this respect older or less fresh wine is of less quality than fresh new wine. fresh is sweeter and purer.



Your point assumes that fermented is used here, yet its just that an assumption based on what?

You might say to me well history says.... but i know that History also says that the Jews used and highly valued fresh wine that was unfermented. Pure from the vine is of the highest quality and taste.

In Fact fermentation of the Grape is a process of leavening in the drink. leaven in the bible is often a symbol of sin.

Do you know how long weddings go for in these times? at least 7 days. Do you think they would have run out near the start or the end? Clearly the end unless this was the worst planned wedding out.

So if they had been drinking alcohol for 4-7 days straight how on earth are they going to know the difference in wine quality? I suppose its possible but unlikely. But if it were pure wine, fermented then the difference would stand out straight away.

The question you need to ask yourself is this. Did Jesus cleanse us with fermented/sin blood or his pure sinless blood?

Because the symbol is of water pots for washing. something to think about. I know I proved nothing here, I leave it to you to study and see if these things are so.

blessings.

It was also made into a type of jelly so when mixed with water it would return to grape juice that was not fermented. People then did not have yeast packets, they relied on natural yeast in the air. that's why on Passover the Jews eat unleavened bread because they did not have time to let the bread rise on their windows because they had to leave quickly.

Secondly they made this jelly because it's not summer year around and the harvest of grapes had to last till the next harvest.

 

[tourist]

It was also made into a type of jelly so when mixed with water it would return to grape juice that was not fermented. People then did not have yeast packets, they relied on natural yeast in the air. that's why on Passover the Jews eat unleavened bread because they did not have time to let the bread rise on their windows because they had to leave quickly.

Secondly they made this jelly because it's not summer year around and the harvest of grapes had to last till the next harvest.

This sounds like the jelly of the month club.

 

[gotime]

It was also made into a type of jelly so when mixed with water it would return to grape juice that was not fermented. People then did not have yeast packets, they relied on natural yeast in the air. that's why on Passover the Jews eat unleavened bread because they did not have time to let the bread rise on their windows because they had to leave quickly.

Secondly they made this jelly because it's not summer year around and the harvest of grapes had to last till the next harvest.

This Jelly was also referred to as strong drink in he bible because of its potent concentrate. showing that even assuming the word strong drink in the bible is always referring to Alcohol is wrong.