Again, you are pointing to the word "wine" and making assumptions about that word based on our modern lingo. As I said before to others, look up the word "wine" in a dictionary and you will see that it can refer to fermented or unfermented wine.
Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Again, you are pointing to the word "wine" and making assumptions about that word based on our modern lingo. As I said before to others, look up the word "wine" in a dictionary and you will see that it can refer to fermented or unfermented wine.
Definition of wine - 1828 Webster's dictionary:
WINE, n. [Gr.]
1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto. 2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine. 3. Intoxication.
Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9. 4. Drinking.
[ex. - They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.]
Considering the definition may not be the same using our 'modern lingo' why would I want to us a modern dictionary. It seems that I should want to use the Greek definition from a concordance or Lexicon.
but if Jesus changed the water into grape juice why didn't He say grape juice? I accept it for what scripture says - 'wine' - fermented or unfermented - scripture does not specify - so I can not, nor anyone else for that matter, say for a certainty that it was fermented or if it was unfermented. - Not an excuse but fact. I wouldn't even compare this conversation concerning fermented or unfermented wine of the same importance as the Trinity. I mean like what difference does it make??????????
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lisa79
Guest
God is so much bigger than we can begin to understand. My Lord could see spirits and read thoughts. He could precieve potency of a drink Im sure. Maybe that is what is being taught here...it know your limits. To be able to tell when something is strong or watered down. I see this is important to you but sometimes we read into things until we see what we want to see. I always try to look interior and try to understand my need to feel validated. I am sorry if your life has been touched by alcoholism, it is never pretty. Some of the best people I have ever know are and were recovering alcoholics. They know they are sick and need help. I have seen God take the very thing the devil was using to destroy and build with it.... everything has a purpose and God is always in control.
I'd actually be inclined to think it's vice versa, that eating meat was practised by the apostles to avoid offending anyone. It seems, from most accounts, meat wouldn't have been their preferred diet at all.
Yes, fermentation is the problem. Yeast eats the sugars in the grape and starts a fermentation process and stretches the old wine skins. Which proves that "wine" can refer to unfermented wine (Which you are ignoring).
Another user had already shown an old dictionary screen capture of the definition of this word that proved my case. Go to Dictionary.com and look up the third definition.
Actually, my life was not effected by alcoholism in any way. I was not abused because of it nor did I ever have a problem with alcohol itself. I have came to my conclusions purely based on wanting to know the truth of God's Word on the matter. I have drank moderately believing it was lawful and chose to walk the higher road as a promise to someone I love. But that decision did not influence me in desiring to know the truth of what God's Word on this matter. Most people just skim the surface when they read the Bible. They see words in the Bible and immediately jump to conclusions without really looking at the context (looking up what that word means in English) or examing the Scriptures as if they were a detective trying to gather all of the facts of Scripture to make an intelligent decision. For me, this is a moral issue. If Jesus made alcoholic wine and pushed it upon a party who was already drunk or close to drunk, then Jesus would be using His powers for evil and not good. It is that simple.
What ever dude...I gave 4 sets of context that disagree with your stance so like I said...go to seed on what YOU think instead of weighing all truths associated with the topic at hand....fools reject context and the words of Jesus so good luck with that....
And on top of that you have moved from the rejection of scriptures to the accusatory category as bolded in your statement above....Who leads the accuser of the bretheren......as it is one thing to disagree on scripture, but a totally new line of thought when one starts accusing because it is obvious to all that they reject scriptural truth!.....Kind of like the Pharisees.....!
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Lol, I am not debating whether the wine is fermented or not. Merely pointing out that in the episode of the Wedding in Cana that Jesus IS the good wine.
I do not think it matters whether the wine contained alcohol or not if it was given to the people by Jesus. They seemed to enjoy it.
Though you might notice something, it never says Jesus drank any of the wine.
Actually, he said it is written man shall not live by bread along but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God, seems bible only'ers never hear that.
Here's the scripture if you don't believe that it is written Matthew 4:4, before they change it.
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Actually, it is the Bible questioners and not the Bible onlyers that have a problem with this passage. But let's not try and divide each other. But instead, let's love one another. For love is at the heart of the issue we are discussing.
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I'll go with Martin Luther on this subject.
Martin Luther's Sermon on Soberness and Moderation against Gluttony and Drunkenness, 1 Peter 4:7-11, May 18, 1539:
"God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer: he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control."
Martin Luther had a wine cellar and brewed his own beer. The story goes that he popped a keg of beer to begin Bible study, and the session wasn't over until the keg was empty.
Incidentally, I'm drinking a Guinness Extra Stout at the moment. It's making reading this entire thread and some of the nonsense in it somewhat tolerable.
Martin Luther's Sermon on Soberness and Moderation against Gluttony and Drunkenness, 1 Peter 4:7-11, May 18, 1539:
"God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer: he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control."
Martin Luther had a wine cellar and brewed his own beer. The story goes that he popped a keg of beer to begin Bible study, and the session wasn't over until the keg was empty.
Incidentally, I'm drinking a Guinness Extra Stout at the moment. It's making reading this entire thread and some of the nonsense in it somewhat tolerable.
Ouch!
Is it me brother, who ignored it?
He wouldn´t invite you to a FAST feast, yet no yeast is wanted.
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Ukorin
Guest
You admit that wine can mean fermented, yet have not proved that it was unfermented.
Yeast is not a part of fermentation of wine. Fruit naturally ferments.
Only grain alcohols need yeast.
Only cheap wine uses yeast, to speed the fermentation.
And lastly, yeast is not a general analogy for sin, just as coins are not a general analogy for the lost.
Parables are specific, and not always expandable. Roadsides don't always mean hardened hearts, and birds don't always mean Satan.
Yeast is not a part of fermentation of wine. Fruit naturally ferments.
Only grain alcohols need yeast.
Only cheap wine uses yeast, to speed the fermentation.
And lastly, yeast is not a general analogy for sin, just as coins are not a general analogy for the lost.
Parables are specific, and not always expandable. Roadsides don't always mean hardened hearts, and birds don't always mean Satan.
There was a time I made my own wine. You boiled the grapes and, without adding anything, that juice turns into wine (even inside the fridge)
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jkalyna
Guest
No, Jesus supped of the wine at the last supper. So either he drank fermented alcoholic wine or he drank unfermented wine (grape juice or the new wine that comes out of the cluster of the grape).
1 Corinthians 11:25
"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."
Jesus is a King! And Proverbs 31 says wine is not for Kings. Jesus would not ignore his own sage advise or wisdom within His Word. Nor would he push a drug upon people at a wedding so as to get them drunk either.
This is because there is a natural yeast on the skin of the grapes. It is that powder like substance you see on them when you walk thru a vineyard. Yeast breaks down the sugars and poops out alcohol. In other words, you are consuming or drinking the by product from a micro organism.
and sure enough the context of John 2 is a wedding feast in which guests were drinking intoxicating beverages. (i.e. fermented wine)
