It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Those Who are Opposing OSS, Don't Understand Salvation

OSS = once saved, saved (the astounding idea that once you are saved, why then you are saved!)

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

The opponents focus on passages that say nothing about salvation. They focus on making it to Heaven & avoiding Hell with no reference to the Lord Jesus doing any saving.

But salvation is about a loving Savior who saves us; He saves us from our sins. Can you not get the point, that your passages are not about the Savior saving anyone. They are largely about judgment and its outcome.

Salvation is about the Lord Jesus paying for our sins on the cross and giving us the free gift of eternal life. Is it possible to focus on target?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
No, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
Works are good because they are the expression of love. We must grow into the likeness of God (who is Love!!!). So, loving our neighbor is not an advice, but a commandment!
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Sin is a disease that leads to death. We sin because we are death. Christ came to save us from death, to unite with us and to resurrect our fallen natures. Without God, we are mutilated, we are not perfected, we are incomplete, we can not progress in Life (He is Life and Love). So, this is what I understand by the verse: when we sin we move away from life (God) and this mutilates us spiritually. We are not ourselves when we are outside of God, it is not our normal state to be outside of God this is why I say that we are mutilated.
Simona,
can you not understand that you need to prove your theories from the Bible? The mutilation of the passage is a good thing! The Lord is not going to recommend that we mutilate ourselves spiritually. It is a strong metaphor. Speculative interpretations are of little value; though if one uses the metaphor to illustrate propositional teaching, I see no harm in that.

"it is not our normal state to be outside of God" What is your proof of that?
Who do you mean by "our"?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Works are good because they are the expression of love. We must grow into the likeness of God (who is Love!!!). So, loving our neighbor is not an advice, but a commandment!
But loving neighbor as self is an impossibility for an unsaved man, who has no indwelling Spirit to produce the fruit of love. The natural man is described in his wretched sinfulness in Rom 1-3: There is none who does righteousness, no not one.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
OSS; To Quality As on Topic, a Vs Needs to Mention Salvation

OSS = once saved, saved! Eternal Security.

I give them everlasting life, and they shall never perish.

Now there is a verse on topic. To study salvation, you need to dwell on passages about the Savior and His savlng, and what He does to that end. If the passage is not about a Savior helping out us wretched sinners, it is really not quite on topic.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Note that He is to trusted as the Savior, the one who saves from sins;
not as the "chance-giver."
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
Simona,
can you not understand that you need to prove your theories from the Bible? The mutilation of the passage is a good thing! The Lord is not going to recommend that we mutilate ourselves spiritually. It is a strong metaphor. Speculative interpretations are of little value; though if one uses the metaphor to illustrate propositional teaching, I see no harm in that.
Sir,

Are you serious? Is that what you understood I said? Please, read one more time and notice than I say exactly the opposite thing! Jesus Christ seems to be saying that you are better of without a physical hand, foot or eye, rather than to be cast into the lake of fire. And I interpreted the lake of fire as being spiritually mutilated.


"it is not our normal state to be outside of God" What is your proof of that?
Who do you mean by "our"?
By "our" I mean we, human beings.
As for my proof for that...I thought this is why we are christians in the first place...because we feel that this fallen world is not our real home. We are in exile in this world and this is why we pray "thy Kingdom come"...
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
But loving neighbor as self is an impossibility for an unsaved man, who has no indwelling Spirit to produce the fruit of love. The natural man is described in his wretched sinfulness in Rom 1-3: There is none who does righteousness, no not one.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
...God said that we must love our neighbors. And when someone asked Jesus Christ "but who is my neighbor?", Christ told people the parable of the good samaritan. Also, when Christ talked about the Last Judgment, He said that the criterion of the judgement will be love expressed in works such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the poor, visiting the prisoner/the sick etc.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
By "our" I mean we, human beings.
As for my proof for that...I thought this is why we are christians in the first place...because we feel that this fallen world is not our real home. We are in exile in this world and this is why we pray "thy Kingdom come"...
Simona, you haven't given any proof about sinful human beings. Children of Adam, not saved, are sinners, rightly estranged from God by their sins. The wages of sin is death.

The Christian is far different from a general human being. That is why I ask you for proof of you claims, as you seemed to me to be saying positive things about fallen men, which would be true only of born again Christians. Did I misunderstand you?

You seem to misunderstand the Sheep & Goat judgment in Mat 25 where the nations are judged for how they treated Christ's brethren, judgment when He returns to earth, confusing it with the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Once again I will post these:

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Notice that these scriptures do not say believe Jesus existed and died on the cross for the remission of sins, and now you don't have to do nothing but sit back.

No they say you must endure, have patience, run the race to the end to receive the reward, and that if you do not continue you will also be cut off.

There are those who say works do not matter, but these scriptures as well as others like Matthew 25 make it clear they are.
You can not serve two masters, you can not say you believe in our Lord Jesus but serve satan by the bad works you do.

Plus when it comes to judgment we all give an account of what we did or did not do:

Romans 14:10-12
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Corinthians 3:11–15
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
( This scripture applies to those who receive salvation, even though they slipped up from time to time. Not to those who believe but continue to produce nothing but bad fruit, works )

2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad”
Works are very much a part, and work hand and hand with salvation. Saved now is not biblical, and only works when you write these scriptures off do to they go against your no condition, no one can fall away, and it would cause contradiction to your philosophy. It only causes controversy though if you do not know how to put the scriptures together to get the full meaning.

This is what has been called in the past and still to this day as watering down the gospel, when people want to take away from the word. Which people do constantly which is why people then do not understand the full meaning of what one must do, and also which is why prophecy teaching has been interpreted by some as already happened to because they leave out other events that must take place first. When we can see through history records they have not.


James 1:27

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation

Once again I will post these:
Kenneth do you note that in all the scripture you quote, there is nothing about a Savior saving anyone, which is the topic of this thread.

Again you quote Hebrews 6 and don't go through 6:9 where the passage is explained. Again you seem to confuse rewards with salvation.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Do you have a phobia of verses about salvation?

He is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Re: Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation

Then you must not read very good, do to they say what you have to do to be saved. And if you do not you will be cast out ( not saved ).

These scriptures do apply to ones salvation, and therefor do belong in this thread. Once again I say you just do not like these scriptures because it shows that you can not just sit back and do nothing.

Kenneth do you note that in all the scripture you quote, there is nothing about a Savior saving anyone, which is the topic of this thread.

Again you quote Hebrews 6 and don't go through 6:9 where the passage is explained. Again you seem to confuse rewards with salvation.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Do you have a phobia of verses about salvation?

He is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver"
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
Did I misunderstand you?
Sir,

I think you did. And I am very confused right now. We started by talking about the verse from Mark 9:43-45 which the user Newbirth gave as a proof that the concept of ES is false because if you had eternal security you would no longer have to worry about your hand, foot and eye. You did not agree with the user Newbirth and gave your own interpretation which is very far from what the Scripture actually says.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Sir,

I think you did. And I am very confused right now. We started by talking about the verse from Mark 9:43-45 which the user Newbirth gave as a proof that the concept of ES is false because if you had eternal security you would no longer have to worry about your hand, foot and eye. You did not agree with the user Newbirth and gave your own interpretation which is very far from what the Scripture actually says.
Whatever you make of the strong metaphor, it cannot contradict. Eph 2; salvation is not by works.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Re: Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation

Then you must not read very good, do to they say what you have to do to be saved. And if you do not you will be cast out ( not saved ).

These scriptures do apply to ones salvation, and therefor do belong in this thread. Once again I say you just do not like these scriptures because it shows that you can not just sit back and do nothing.
No they do not refer to salvation. Quote me anything in them where there is the Savior saving anyone from his sins. What you do or don't do is not salvation. Salvation is a savior saving us.

Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Anyone regarding Christ not as a Savior, but as a chance-giver needs to repent of that sin.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Once again you only see half the truth. Salvation is not earned by works, yes. But our faith produces good works as this chapter in Eph. talks about, and then Paul goes further to say how we must continue to walk in this manner. If one turns away and starts to walk back in the way of the world, and not the love of God his salvation will become void.

Whatever you make of the strong metaphor, it cannot contradict. Eph 2; salvation is not by works.
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
Whatever you make of the strong metaphor, it cannot contradict. Eph 2; salvation is not by works.
It is you that tried to make something (else) out of the verses from Mark 9:43-45, not me. In fact, I decided to intervene in this thread when I saw how you interpreted the verses which say:

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

How can one read this verses and still claim the eternal security concept?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Re: Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation

Is that your issue now, because it does not say Jesus says.....

The scriptures I gave in Matthew and Mark are His words, and the other ones are from the Apostles showing how they are stating the same thing our Lord said.

Once again our Lord says in Matthew and Mark, "one who endures to the end will be saved. "
( Not the saved endure to the end )

Peter, Paul, Timothy, and James show they teach the same thing in these passages from Hebrews, Romans, James, 1 Corinthians, and 1 and 2 Timothy.

Scripture agreeing with scripture from multiple teachers ( From our Lord Jesus to the Apostles )


No they do not refer to salvation. Quote me anything in them where there is the Savior saving anyone from his sins. What you do or don't do is not salvation. Salvation is a savior saving us.

Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Anyone regarding Christ not as a Savior, but as a chance-giver needs to repent of that sin.
 
C

Cody

Guest
It is you that tried to make something (else) out of the verses from Mark 9:43-45, not me. In fact, I decided to intervene in this thread when I saw how you interpreted the verses which say:

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [a] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

How can one read this verses and still claim the eternal security concept?
because of verses like this:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Re: Topic Absent from KC's Post = Salvation

No they do not refer to salvation. Quote me anything in them where there is the Savior saving anyone from his sins. What you do or don't do is not salvation. Salvation is a savior saving us.

Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Anyone regarding Christ not as a Savior, but as a chance-giver needs to repent of that sin.
I will qualify the above:

There is one ref I see in all that grocery list, about Timothy saving those who hear his teaching, indicating that there is a human part to salvation in that a human brings the message of salvation. But the only real Savior is the Lord Jesus. But that passage has no hint of anyone losing salvation.
 
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
19
0
because of verses like this:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Great verse! So, salvation is a synergic work between God and me. Do I still come to God if I betray Him (like Judas did, for example)?