It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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I didn't read the 54 pages, but has anyone said HOW MUCH/MANY good works/repentance is needed to be FULLY saved. I need to pick up one of those good works measurement thingies after work tomorrow to keep track.
 
Atwood said:
Shalom Peaceful,

I note you quote no scripture.
I don't know any scripture that denies new birth to OT saints. New birth and regeneration are synonymous, but filled with the Spirit is something else; something a Christian may or may not have. Christians are exhorted to be filled with the Spirit, speaking to yourselves [not others] in psalms . . . singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. (Eph 5). Eph 3 uses uncertain language: "that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God." And Paul prays for them to that end, indicating it is not a given for a Christian. Christ may be pushed to the periphery instead of dwelling in the heart as He is trusted (by faith).

It should be obvious that Christians sin and when they sin they are not filled with the Spirit; but they are still regenerated, have the indwelling Spirit (who is grieved). There are distinct works of the Spirit, not to be confused, including baptism, filling, regenerating, sealing.

You say: "Being born of the Spirit is salvation . . . . you can't separate the two."
Then if you deny salvation to OT saints, you are saying that Abraham was not saved, justified by faith; but he was.

Whether or not OT saints were "born of the Spirit," we know they were saved.
To me it is a problem to say OT saints were not born of the Spirit also.
For there were godly men in the OT who walked with God (like Enoch).
And I don't see how they could have done anything good or walked with God without regeneration, having only the Adamic nature.
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I never said that OT saints were not saved. I said that the Spirit of God did not dwell IN them; born again of Spirit but that God place his spirit upon certain believers - (Numbers 11:17,25,29; Judges 3:10; 6:34, etc) The infilling of the holy Spirit is designated only for the church, the body of Christ. That is what makes us ONE in the body of Christ - the answer to the Jesus' prayer in John 17 - I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. - That is accomplished by being born again of the Spirit - the mystery which was hid in God - that is the body. Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you 1 Co. 3:16 - NEW BIRTH, BORN AGAIN of Spirit.
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified) John 7:38,39 And God doesn't jerk out his Spirit each time we sin - We are children of God because of the Spirit born within us - our walk is what follows - we walk in the light or we don't - that is our relationship [fellowship] - our sonship is eternal.
 
Alligator said:
that scripture doesn't prove your point. Read it. It says we are kept by the power of God through faith. What if, sometime in the future, we lose that faith for whatever reason. It doesn't cover that.
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Those who deny Eternal Security of the believer, deny the Power of God 1 Pet 1:5

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

For such we should turn away from 2 Tim 3:5

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
 
alligator

What if, sometime in the future, we lose that faith for whatever reason.
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That would be the power of God's fault, since we are kept through Faith by the power of God !

So again, you are one whom True believers should stay away from !
 
svedbygrace said:
Those who deny Eternal Security of the believer, deny the Power of God 1 Pet 1:5

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

For such we should turn away from 2 Tim 3:5

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
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Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
svedbygrace said:
alligator



That would be the power of God's fault, since we are kept through Faith by the power of God !

So again, you are one whom True believers should stay away from !
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Thats amazing. Even when we make THROUGH FAITH in huge letters you still don't get it.
 
peacefulbeliever said:
The infilling of the holy Spirit is designated only for the church, the body of Christ. That is what makes us ONE in the body of Christ - the answer to the Jesus' prayer in John 17 - I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
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Good morning, Peaceful.

I don't know what you mean by "infilling." There is no such term in the Bible to my knowledge. If you have Bible reference to it, quote it please. The prayer in John 17 does not refer to the filling, mentioned in Ephesians 5. "Be filled with the Spirit." The filling does not make us one in the Body of Christ, not the filling.

The baptism makes us one in the Body of Christ.
 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
- 1 Cor 12:13.

Filling is found in the OT, but not baptism of the Spirit.

That is accomplished by being born again of the Spirit
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The Word of God never says that filling is accomplished by the new birth. It is something that a Christian may or may not have at a given moment.

Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you 1 Co. 3:16 - NEW BIRTH, BORN AGAIN of Spirit.
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Your verse does not say "new birth, born again." Your verse refers to the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, not their new birth.

We are children of God because of the Spirit born within us
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The Holy Spirit is eternal and never born.

You seem to confuse distinct operations of the Spirit.
 
Alligator said:
that scripture doesn't prove your point. Read it. It says we are kept by the power of God through faith. What if, sometime in the future, we lose that faith for whatever reason. It doesn't cover that.
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The verse says nothing whatsoever about losing faith. It says we are kept by the power of God. The means specified, "through pistis," doesn't change the keeping one bit; neither does the text say it. The text does not say "unless we lose faith." Thus far I haven't seen anyone going on about "losing faith" quote one verse about it; it is a made-up canard here.

We do have the example of the Lord Jesus praying that Peter's faith not fail in the sift wheat passage. And we have the example of Peter momentarily losing faith in the Lord Jesus when he walked on water, not to say he stopped trust the Lord Jesus to fulfill Jesus' promise of secure eternal life. Peter looked at the waves, instead of the Lord and sank. The Lord Jesus pulled him up and saved him from drowning.

So instead of going on about "losing faith" from the imagination, one needs some scripture on the topic, if there is; I am unaware of anyone ever said to stop trusting Jesus for salvation once he has trusted Him. We do have the proof text in 1 John saying that those who apostatize were never in the Church to begin with.

One standard translation of pistis is faithfulness, which fits this context well. We are kept by God's faithfulness.

But no matter how you interpret pistis, the main statement is factual "we are kept." -- no exception statement.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish" < John 10
 
Kerry said:
Nobody has told me yet what Paul meant by a backslider.
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Kerry, if you have a verse to quote, quote it and argue from it.

But if you really want to know about eternal security, you must read verses that speak about "eternal life," "shall never perish," and use the term save/salvation or equivalent words.

Worry about how this or that other doctrine correlates is a dubious methodology.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish"
 
Timeline said:
When he says, "[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, [SUP]12 [/SUP]so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." don't you think he is saying to continue in Jesus Christ.

He says that God is not unjust so as to forget your work. And that we are to imitate those that imitate Jesus (not in so many words, but that is what he is saying). And though we can never achieve perfection (in the flesh), we do work as best we can (not to be saved, but because we were saved).

It seems to me that you left off verses 10-12. But I do suppose that we could go back and forth like this until we pass from this life.

I don't think that most people on here, that believe in OSAS, believe that we should be without work. But they don't like the way that we say it.

And those that say that we can fall away, don't believe that it is because God's power is lacking or that he doesn't keep his promises. But with our true acceptance of Jesus Christ, there is an accompanying change. Without that change, it is evident, if not to us, then to God, that we did not truly accept Jesus into our hearts. And once that change has happened, and then we turn away, then we are lost. I do not believe that this is a back and forth thing with each of our sins and requests for forgiveness. That's just not how it works, in my opinion. But when we start saying that God does not exist and that Jesus was just a man, I think that we have rejected salvation that we may have once had.
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What did Christ go to the cross for, to do what? Was it for sin and for us to stop sin?
Or was it for unbelief that we are born with in a flesh nature body?
And if one does change their mind from unbelief to belief, what is the result ?
Does it change one from self serving? Does it change one from just serving those that love them?
Do we then become a bond servant to the living God, not caring if we get rewarded or not?

When one has received the peace in all things, beyond understanding, that one has received the confirmation

[h=3]Romans 8:16[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

so when one has received this they know they are saved, why? Because God is not a liar is God?
So seek the Mercy and have Faith, and see truth that sets you free to be God's bond servant through Son Christ
In this view from God when God confirms this in you, You then are OSAS in Father not mankind ever, yet love you to the finish line
 
SeaBass said:
Some seem to ignore that there are two sides of salvation;

1) God's faithfulness to man
2) mans' faithfulness to God

Some just pick out scriptures that speak of #1 as Jn 10:28 and ignore scriptures that speak of #2 as Jn 10:27.
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Man could not do it, as shown by Laws of Moses to the First Chosen to show the rest of the world the awesome God. As has been shown many ways to us all through Mercy from day one of the fall

And since Man can't do it in his weak flesh, not perfectly ever. God did in sending his own Son in our place, did it for us to bring in us a new way by Love in 1 Cor.13:4-13, by the resurrected Christ not the dead one
He is alive, I tell you Alive forever more. Christ is risen for you to be risen now in spirit and truth
 
Alligator said:
Thats amazing. Even when we make THROUGH FAITH in huge letters you still don't get it.
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Alligator, "through pistis" is translatable as through faithfulness .

Do you deem the Lord faithful to keep His promises to the believer?

The means specified is not an "if." The fact remains, "kept by the power of God." Now you can theorize all day, but "through faith" cannot negate the kept. You can theorize that part of the keeping is maintaining the Christian's faith, like the Lord Jesus praying that Peter's faith fail not. But theorizing on what it might imply, does not change the kept by the power of God.

"don't get it."

What a man needs to get is that the Lord Jesus offers salvation. You need to trust Him with your life in total. Trust Him as your Savior, trust Him with your destiny; trust Him to get you to Heaven; trust in His payment for all your sins. Forget the what-if-this and what-if-that, and throw yourself into His care. He offers the free gift of eternal life.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish."
 
Alligator said:
there is a lot more to obedience than merely believing and trusting. A lot,of ES people want to just "trust in Christ" and they claim that's all there is to it. I don't find this in the bible. Trusting without obeying is not trust at all.
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Alligator, that is what you say.

What the Word of God says is

"The wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
That is an order to obey.

That is the only obedience required for salvation.
If you ever find that any other obedience is said to bring eternal life, quote your verse.

How about trusting the Lord Jesus to actually save you today?
 
Atwood said:
Good morning, Peaceful.

I don't know what you mean by "infilling." There is no such term in the Bible to my knowledge. If you have Bible reference to it, quote it please. The prayer in John 17 does not refer to the filling, mentioned in Ephesians 5. "Be filled with the Spirit." The filling does not make us one in the Body of Christ, not the filling.

The baptism makes us one in the Body of Christ.[/COLOR]
 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
- 1 Cor 12:13.

Filling is found in the OT, but not baptism of the Spirit.
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You seem to be confused with being 'baptized with holy Spirit' = being filled with the Spirit = born again of the Spirit. It is really simple - we confess Jesus as Lord; believe God raised him from the dead and we are saved Romans 10:9,10 = born again = John 3:5 = the spirit [being a partaker of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4] is born within you.
Your verse does not say "new birth, born again." Your verse refers to the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, not their new birth.

The Holy Spirit is eternal and never born.

You seem to confuse distinct operations of the Spirit.
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THE holy Spirit [God] is eternal but a man has to be 'born again' of the Spirit - new birth. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit - John 3:6b

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:13. How do you think we are all baptized into one body? By one Spirit - holy Spirit. For John truly baptized in water but ye shall be baptized with holy Spirit. . . [Acts 1:5] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the holy Spirit. John 1:32,33

Being baptized with holy Spirit - filled with holy Spirit - logic - infilling of holy Spirit just a different wordage - all the same.
If when you are born again you are born again of the Spirit then therefore God in Christ dwell in you via the gift of holy Spirit. All these things logically go together . . . .

What do you mean by "the distinct operations of the Spirit"? 1 Co. 12 - which list the manifestations of the Spirit? All one and the same - all operated by one and the same Spirit given to every man [believer] to profit withal [v7].
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FrancisDeSales said:
What do you do with this verse?
"Being made perfect he became the source of ETERNAL LIFE for all who OBEY him" Hebrews 5:9
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Belief, brings obedience by Faith in Christ one does and quits the trying of the roller coaster ride, up and down, fighting flesh nature, carnal mind attitudes
Learns to walk by the Spirit of God, where there is no condemnation in Spirit and truth of God
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Looks like if one believes no doubt it is eternal security, and if one does not believe then it is not eternal security to them, yet it is what it is, God loves you, so much he went to the cross for you, to give you new life in Spirit and truth, by and through the resurrected Christ, Now that is love beyond measure is it not?
 
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