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Okay, if you don't believe in God, the only other explanation is usually evolution, so it isn't much of a stretch for me to make that assumption. What is your idea of existence? A great cosmic accident of some sort? 
I DONT KNOW
And just because I don't know doesn't mean I should assume that a dimension jumping wizard did it.. Likewise I won't jump on board an idea of something appearing from nothing.
I rather prefer that explantion to yours: A rock that figured out how to move on it's own and become the human race.
P
Lol I bet you do Phil.
Fact is, if there was irrefutable evidence for either explanation then this conversation wouldn't be happening
Fact is, if there was irrefutable evidence for either explanation then this conversation wouldn't be happening
Yeah I could never accept a personal testimony as evidence. While I don't doubt your sincerity, there are also people out there who are convinced they have been abducted by aliens, convinced they have seen ghosts and convinced they saw Elvis at their local store.
And another question always crosses my mind when someone brings this up... Why would god come and perform minor miracles for you in your already relatively comfortable life while at the same time allowing many children to die of starvation and AIDS.
And another question always crosses my mind when someone brings this up... Why would god come and perform minor miracles for you in your already relatively comfortable life while at the same time allowing many children to die of starvation and AIDS.
That's an interesting point. But obviously the animal learns to adopt a "go along to get along" position within its group because it's in its best interest to do so. This is a learned behavior centered on social interactions. When a human feels convicted in his heart it's not about social interactions or group dynamics but rather an inherent knowledge that the action was wrong, even if it was personally beneficial.
Does an automobile care if it's brakes are not working? No, but you can be sure the maker of the automobile does (especially if the car is still under warranty lol). The brain is just another body part that does what it's designed to do - send signals to various parts of the body to keep the heart pumping, the lungs breathing, etc. It really doesn't "care" if it performs its function or not. It just does it until it can't.
HQ said:
But in my scenario there's at least an external source involved that actually cares, unlike the brain. For that reason I believe it's the most logical explanation.
Design implies a thoughtful designer (be it a car maker or a person maker). A conscience implies a moral law giver.
Does an automobile care if it's brakes are not working? No, but you can be sure the maker of the automobile does (especially if the car is still under warranty lol). The brain is just another body part that does what it's designed to do - send signals to various parts of the body to keep the heart pumping, the lungs breathing, etc. It really doesn't "care" if it performs its function or not. It just does it until it can't.
HQ said:
But in my scenario there's at least an external source involved that actually cares, unlike the brain. For that reason I believe it's the most logical explanation.
Design implies a thoughtful designer (be it a car maker or a person maker). A conscience implies a moral law giver.
Sometimes it can be beneficial for the group and someone will be willing to make the sacrifice due to memes that exist in the society. I think that the convictions of what are right and wrong are heavily influenced by our interaction with the culture around us. What convictions are you referring to? What does it tell us is right and what does it tell us is wrong?
The brain as a whole, sure. I am curious on how you are defining "care" here? As far as I know "caring" is a process of the mind. All instances of caring I know of are the result of processes within a brain. Why posit that some brainless caring thing exists in order to explain your idea of a conscience?
Assuming we accept that it is something that has been designed. By making that assumption at this point it is multiplying entities beyond necessity. How did this designer design such a thing? Why does the conscience seem to function so poorly? Where did the designer gets it's morals? How did this designer come into being?
The brain as a whole, sure. I am curious on how you are defining "care" here? As far as I know "caring" is a process of the mind. All instances of caring I know of are the result of processes within a brain. Why posit that some brainless caring thing exists in order to explain your idea of a conscience?
Assuming we accept that it is something that has been designed. By making that assumption at this point it is multiplying entities beyond necessity. How did this designer design such a thing? Why does the conscience seem to function so poorly? Where did the designer gets it's morals? How did this designer come into being?
I doubt we can call our knowledge of right and wrong "inherent". What is right and wrong for a person is most often dictated by the environment they grow up in. This can easily be seen across the world! In America, it is considered morally wrong to harm anyone for merely expressing their views verbally. In numerous Muslim countries, speaking ill of one's religion is not only worse than harming others, but should be punishable by physical harm! In Japan, it is considered rude to wear your shoes inside another person's house, though nobody blames you in America or any nation situated far north.
There are some basic instincts that are natural. For example, human beings naturally enjoy emotions such as love and happiness. So human kind is going to gravitate towards doing things that help them achieve those emotions. It turns out, being kind to others leads to this kind of happiness. We also have the natural inclination to work towards certain goals - such as punishing ourselves during the day at work as a means of obtaining money so we can both live and live comfortably. The mind of animals is incredibly complex, and the human mind being - perhaps - the most complicated.
We don't have to look far to see the relations of human emotion and animal emotion.
Koko Responds to a Sad Movie - YouTube
Koko the Gorilla with Robin Williams.mp4 - YouTube
Of course, the levels of emotion in animals are going to differ from species to species, from order to order.
It's fallacious to assume that if one object was created by someone, all objects must have been created by someone. You can use the same logic to create equally fallacious statements, "When you look at a rock in your back yard, you know it wasn't created by a person, therefore no objects have a creator!" Just because a watch has a watch designer does not necessarily mean people have a person designer, or rocks have a rock designer, or stars have a star designer.
The world isn't all or nothing - where everything has to be either created or not created. It is possible for some things to be created and other things to exist naturally (being created through natural processes).
Well, no, it doesn't. That's an assumption. There's no reason to believe a conscience implies a moral law giver any more than it implies natural emotion. This is why scientists spend so much time examining the behaviors of humans, apes, and other animals.
There are some basic instincts that are natural. For example, human beings naturally enjoy emotions such as love and happiness. So human kind is going to gravitate towards doing things that help them achieve those emotions. It turns out, being kind to others leads to this kind of happiness. We also have the natural inclination to work towards certain goals - such as punishing ourselves during the day at work as a means of obtaining money so we can both live and live comfortably. The mind of animals is incredibly complex, and the human mind being - perhaps - the most complicated.
We don't have to look far to see the relations of human emotion and animal emotion.
Koko Responds to a Sad Movie - YouTube
Koko the Gorilla with Robin Williams.mp4 - YouTube
Of course, the levels of emotion in animals are going to differ from species to species, from order to order.
It's fallacious to assume that if one object was created by someone, all objects must have been created by someone. You can use the same logic to create equally fallacious statements, "When you look at a rock in your back yard, you know it wasn't created by a person, therefore no objects have a creator!" Just because a watch has a watch designer does not necessarily mean people have a person designer, or rocks have a rock designer, or stars have a star designer.
The world isn't all or nothing - where everything has to be either created or not created. It is possible for some things to be created and other things to exist naturally (being created through natural processes).
Well, no, it doesn't. That's an assumption. There's no reason to believe a conscience implies a moral law giver any more than it implies natural emotion. This is why scientists spend so much time examining the behaviors of humans, apes, and other animals.
I agree.
Also, leaving this here, just because it's so gosh darn cute! (My time to edit my previous post has expired)
Koko the Gorilla Gets a New Pet Kitten - So Adorable - YouTube
Also, leaving this here, just because it's so gosh darn cute! (My time to edit my previous post has expired)
Koko the Gorilla Gets a New Pet Kitten - So Adorable - YouTube
Pantheism - Belief that God and the universe are one and that God is the combined manifestation of all the forces and phenomena in the existing universe. It holds that everything there is constitutes a unity and that this unity is divine. Pantheists deny the distinction between God and creatures found in Christianity.
Source: Kurian, G. T. (2001). In Nelson’s new Christian dictionary, Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
In comparison, the Bible teaches that the heavens and the earth had a beginning (Genesis 1:1) but that God's existence is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2).
Pantheism would appear to assert a oneness among all matter and energy and creatures in the known universe and no separation as in "we are stardust". Pantheists often ascribe to the universe attributes such as intelligence and wisdom and thus ascribe something of a divine nature to the universe (and to themselves).
Christianity asserts a distinction between Creator and creature and a separation between God and man.
"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you..." (Isaiah 59:2).
One of the reasons that we cannot see God is because He is holy and pure while we are sinful and impure. See Habakkuk 1:1-2.
God gave free will to humanity. With free will, we are free to love and obey God. We are also free to rebel and sin. Angels apparently had free will and some of them sinned and rebelled and became devils / demons.
There is no gospel for sinful angels. There is a gospel for sinful humanity. It declares that there is a righteous kingdom of God that is coming and that we can be full citizens in it if we will repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from the wrath to come. God is glorified in both the administration of justice and in the administration of mercy. We are all guilty of something except for Jesus. Seek to be a recipient of pardon and mercy. Almighty God will deal with the special cases of infants, mentally impaired, ignorant, etc. and we can be sure that He will do right. We are responsible for what we can know and can do.
Source: Kurian, G. T. (2001). In Nelson’s new Christian dictionary, Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
In comparison, the Bible teaches that the heavens and the earth had a beginning (Genesis 1:1) but that God's existence is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psalm 90:2).
Pantheism would appear to assert a oneness among all matter and energy and creatures in the known universe and no separation as in "we are stardust". Pantheists often ascribe to the universe attributes such as intelligence and wisdom and thus ascribe something of a divine nature to the universe (and to themselves).
Christianity asserts a distinction between Creator and creature and a separation between God and man.
"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you..." (Isaiah 59:2).
One of the reasons that we cannot see God is because He is holy and pure while we are sinful and impure. See Habakkuk 1:1-2.
God gave free will to humanity. With free will, we are free to love and obey God. We are also free to rebel and sin. Angels apparently had free will and some of them sinned and rebelled and became devils / demons.
There is no gospel for sinful angels. There is a gospel for sinful humanity. It declares that there is a righteous kingdom of God that is coming and that we can be full citizens in it if we will repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from the wrath to come. God is glorified in both the administration of justice and in the administration of mercy. We are all guilty of something except for Jesus. Seek to be a recipient of pardon and mercy. Almighty God will deal with the special cases of infants, mentally impaired, ignorant, etc. and we can be sure that He will do right. We are responsible for what we can know and can do.
What is your idea of existence? A great cosmic accident of some sort?
The OP (Opening Post, Post #1) stated and implied that atheists become theists when threatened with death. The thread title implied that atheists might not exist.
IMHO, thread discussion has shown that atheists sometimes carry a resemblance to pantheists and that they do sometimes possess a concept of divinity, even if it is an impersonal deity that includes everything and every one (including themselves).
There was some discussion from the Book of Job. This verse would be relevant:
God to Job: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me about it if you know so much. " (Job 38:4)
Does human science have any powers to rival God's ability to steer the stars and constellations as discussed in Job 38:31-33?
This thread contained some content about spiral galaxies. I spoke up a bit on this and perhaps need to say more. Angular momentum in general and spiral galaxies, in particular, may yet be the subject of a future post.
It has been an interesting thread. More thoughts have been shared than what I've summarized here. Not everything got a complete response but that is common. Thank you to all who have participated so far.
IMHO, thread discussion has shown that atheists sometimes carry a resemblance to pantheists and that they do sometimes possess a concept of divinity, even if it is an impersonal deity that includes everything and every one (including themselves).
There was some discussion from the Book of Job. This verse would be relevant:
God to Job: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me about it if you know so much. " (Job 38:4)
Does human science have any powers to rival God's ability to steer the stars and constellations as discussed in Job 38:31-33?
This thread contained some content about spiral galaxies. I spoke up a bit on this and perhaps need to say more. Angular momentum in general and spiral galaxies, in particular, may yet be the subject of a future post.
It has been an interesting thread. More thoughts have been shared than what I've summarized here. Not everything got a complete response but that is common. Thank you to all who have participated so far.
I do not say to you personally, you know if you do or not between God and you, and that has nothing to do with me.
I used to live like a refugee, and when God revealed God's love to me and not only me, but to all, I went into AWE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and now just love back in response of thanksgiving and praise, no longer all stressed out as in did I do good enough today, trying to keep track of whether I sinned or not, which is just what kept me in sin, being deceived by flesh, and am not saying I will not ever sin again, don't know, I can't predict future so best for me to trust God daily to keep me safe in him.
No flesh pleases God, except Christ's period
I used to live like a refugee, and when God revealed God's love to me and not only me, but to all, I went into AWE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and now just love back in response of thanksgiving and praise, no longer all stressed out as in did I do good enough today, trying to keep track of whether I sinned or not, which is just what kept me in sin, being deceived by flesh, and am not saying I will not ever sin again, don't know, I can't predict future so best for me to trust God daily to keep me safe in him.
No flesh pleases God, except Christ's period
That is why we are not under those commandments we are in the new Covenant of Love that supersedes all. Love from God to all, even as people have messed with this love to their own satisfaction and some act holier than thou
I personally am not worthy Thankful for God's Mercy to us all, praying for all to beleive, receive and see
I personally am not worthy Thankful for God's Mercy to us all, praying for all to beleive, receive and see